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AKiwi  2d ago (alethios.substack.com)   1079 thread views

With TracingWoodgrains - Journalism, Education Policy, and Political Change

alethios.substack.com

Hi folks,

Recorded this interview with Trace at Manifest last month. We talked about evolving cultural dynamics online, reforming the Democratic Party, and how small groups of people can have disproportionate influence on public policy. Also discussed is the impact of places like TheMotte, both as a crucible for ideas and as a training ground for future writers and leaders.

Given Trace's prominence and contentiousness here, I hope it might be of interest. Look forward to hearing what people think, and perhaps sparking some discussion. I've highlighted one point of disagreement I have with his ideas [thusly] in the transcript.

The video, Spotify/Apple Podcast links, and a full 'Patio11-style' transcript are all available here: https://alethios.substack.com/p/with-tracingwoodgrains-journalism

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It's an odd shill (edit- as in, advertisement/solicitation) that advertises on the Motte with a claim that the Motte is a subject of conversation, but links to an article transcript that doesn't include the word.

It was a conscious decision to leave it subtextual, particularly through the edit. On the one hand, the event where this was filmed was full of Motte posters, many of whom are now in various positions of authority. On the other, I felt that insights into the sort of dynamics we see here, though a particularly intense example of the sort of online spaces we spend much of the interview discussing, are generalisable. Ultimately, I didn't want an audience unfamiliar with this space to feel unable to engage with the ideas.

FWIW, he asked us if it would be okay to post this.

We said yes, and warned him he'd probably be getting flack from Trace-haters.

There are Trace haters here?

Trace has history. In 2020, he was bothered by posts from FCfromSSC and others for posting views that they don't want to share a country with Trace or other Blue Tribers and that Red Tribe needs to not cooperate with Blues on problems they started (rioting, along with Rittenhouse, was a big topic at the time) and then he took issue with some dehumanizing rhetoric towards criminals like robbers calling them "scum" and "rabid dogs" and eventually announced that he was starting r/TheSchism along with another user with a bunch of numbers for a name that had his own reasons. I think this post is probably relevant there, too.

Some time later, the furry crossword hoax was pulled on LibsOfTikTok by Trace, and other comment history accumulated that was used against Trace by other users here. After the David Gerard article, Trace basically flamed out. He had a successful Twitter account at that point, and he didn't really need this place anymore.

I don't like how he exited and I think this place is worse off without him and I don't really agree with much of his reasoning about this site being bad that I've seen him post elsewhere, but I will give him that it must be pretty annoying to already be left of center in a space like this and then get multiple people who link 5 year old posts at him aggressively to tell him how wrong and hypocritical he is. The rules allowed the behavior, but it was too bad. Everyone makes mistakes, missteps in rhetoric, or failures to predict, and one weak spot of forums like this is that they're perfectly preserved, forever. I've seen the same kind of digging up of old posts impact other users here in a way that I don't find helpful.

Anyway, Trace is wrong, this place is way better than Twitter. I'd guess he gets more haters on Twitter, but they're of lower quality and he can snipe back as much as he likes.

Sorry for re-igniting old drama. If I characterized this wrong, let me know in the replies.

I will give him that it must be pretty annoying to already be left of center in a space like this and then get multiple people who link 5 year old posts at him aggressively to tell him how wrong and hypocritical he is.

I'd be more bothered about people bringing up five year posts if the posters (or institutions) involved with them were willing to say "I don't believe that any more" or even "that's out of context" (along with an explanation if needed). I would agree that if that's the case, bringing up the five year old posts is crass and usually inappropriate.

But that's not usually what's happening when people bring up old posts here or on LW. (It often is in the outside world, of course.)

Looking into it again... maybe, yeah. The LibsOfTikTok thing was pretty relevant to bring up for that story in particular. Trace never disavowed the hoax, and then he wrote another thing that was sorta relevant to it. It is also noteworthy that Trace waged the culture war outside of this forum in a more real way than almost anyone who has ever commented here with the LibsOfTikTok thing.

Trace has a history of being, I dunno, mentally unstable in terms of his online persona, with TheSchism and then this swearing off of the site. Given those two actions, I think it's fair to say that he was never very in love with the principles of this site in the first place, a "fair weather friend". I'm not in disagreement that rules like the one we operate under can be a burden, and that sometimes, it's best to drop all pretenses of fairness and tell people to bugger off, but since this is a public forum and low effortposters and partisans naturally select themselves out and everyone else can only just... reply to your posts, it's not a huge problem. In contrast, Twitter sucks. I've tried it and I found a couple profiles I like other than Trace, but the format doesn't really lend itself to good conversation like a place like this does. Everything peters out, Trace is fickle at best at responding to his commenters, character limit, have to click many times to continue reading conversations, etc.

Oh well. If he wants to join the McDonald's of websites, the Universal Culture melting pot shitstorm and thinks it's better, what can I say? I guess it probably is better for him since he wants more exposure.

Thanks for sharing, wow people were really nasty to him. I don’t really know all of what was going on but it’s a shame because I haven’t seen anywhere near that level of personal mud flinging in my time on the site so far!

There's a lifecycle that a very specific sort of amazing poster here can fall into (if he's young enough).

  • Post a lot
  • get recognized for quality writing
  • take it off-site (subtack or twitter)
  • (here's the critical part) link you're real-life identify to your username
  • come back to the motte every now and then
  • now that your irl identity is revealed, somehow criticism of your writing seems a lot more personal, and you react badly
  • flame out

The exact same fucking thing happened to ymeskhout, another former mod. A kinda similar thing happened to Kulak_Revolt.

Trace was a very highly valued member of the forum, and the forum was even prepared to look past the fact that he tried to recruit all the left-of-center users to a new subreddit. Then the rest happened.

I agree that criticism of your writing seems a lot more personal when you make your writing your job. But I'd go further and add there's also an element in the lifecycle where some of these people made their writing about themselves- specifically their own moral self-perception- and that criticism stings all the more when you publicly fail to meet your own publicly espoused ethics.

I don't remember ymeskhout burning out, but the other two at least had high-profile moments where they failed to meet the standards they claimed, and then rather clearly disliked that standard being held against them. When you make an unequivocable moral standard about why others are wrong to act in a certain way, and then equivocate about it when you do it yourself, the substack paywall becomes a the most generous sort of affirmation. On the other hand, a diverse audience of many contradicting and even disagreeable views who will scorn your self-image of yourself as a morally superior person for free.

On the other hand, you have an audience that is largely composed of people who like you and your position enough to give you money.

Oh that's sad, and kind of recent too. I disagree with Trace's manipulation of Libs of TikTok, but it looks like he regrets it too. And that commenter was an asshole to bring it up on an unrelated thread.

It's sad to see Trace ragequit. He's a good poster, a shining example of the kind of person that keeps me around the rationalist-adjacent sphere. I worry about the motte's inability to retain quality centrist and left-of-center members, even though myself I am far right.

He's a big fan of the block function on twitter, along with plenty of other large accounts. I wonder why he didn't avail himself on that more on TheMotte.

it looks like he regrets it too

Really? Where did he say this?

(And "It was bad tactics" or "I really don't like how it made people hate me" don't count.)

Rittenhouse was such a perfect little scissor...not shocking that was the first step in driving people apart

Amadan's put me as having a "mad hate" for him, and while I try to be even-handed with my interactions with him directly, I've also abandoned TheSchism as a result of his behavior and have been trying to keep any discussion on twitter as fact-specific as possible because I don't see any possible progress or even third-party benefit from value discussions. There's been a few times that's tested my commitment against unfollowing people for disagreement.

((While I hope he has luck putting his money where his mouth is on CEP, I expect that if he gets remotely close to a serious concrete policy going anywhere against or parallel to progressive institutions, he's going to get figuratively drowned in teacher's union meat. And more likely he's going to find his compatriots taking a train straight to Abilene the second one of The Groups makes any demand, no matter how direct the contradiction to CEP's goals, like he did when he thought Yglesias actually meant anything when talking new centrism.))

I expect Trace would point more to the results of his last conversation here.

I don’t hate him, but anyone who ragequits a forum forever because people said mean things about them immediately loses respect from me.

Honestly, it wasn't even the rageout. Catharsis doesn't have to be pretty. It was more the gap... anti-moe? The gap/contradiction between his opening narrative pitch of 'hello respected friends, let me tell you of a guy who talks shit about the Motte' and then the flame out 'screw you guys, I hated you all anyway.' It's not like it was any sort of surprise or carefully guarded secret, but false friendship for the sake of shilling a substack of all things...

You know what gap moe means?

Man I had you pegged as a 50 year old Fox News boomer.

I don't know what gap moe means. Please explain.

In anime, gap moe, or gyappu moe ギャップ萌え, is a type of moe where a single character or scene features two vastly different and perhaps opposing characteristics, unlikely to occur with each other. Specifically, the term refers to moe 萌え derived from this "gap" between the characteristics.

A classic example is a heartless school delinquent who finds a stray cat in the rain and decides to keep it. The gap between his usual uncaring self and his pet-caring self is considered gap moe.

I looked it up.

Urban Dictionary

A 50-year old is an X-er, not a boomer, and not even an especially old X-er. The boomers were their parents' generation.

I am adding 'Fox News boomer' to my list of pejoratives.

No it’s not a pejorative! The thoroughness of your empirical research is rarely observed among the brainrotted younger generation.

Gattsuru?

Man I had you pegged as a 50 year old Fox News boomer.

Dean not only knows what gap moe means, he's embodied it.

(Also I don't know what it means and this joke is based on a 2-minute google search.)

He has this weird one-two "pouncing panther - wounded gazelle" gimmick, that I personally got rather fed up with. Maybe he got better after moving on from here, but that would go against my priors of how becoming an influencer affects people.

For various definitions of "hater", yes. I think he's a very interesting writer and thinker, and I firmly believe his heart's more or less in the right place. I also think he's one of the better examples about how these virtues are insufficient in the present situation.

What do you mean by the present situation? The information environment more generally or this specific podcast?

It's worth... well, there's nothing to forgive, so no fairness needed from me since no offense was taken. I am not making a critique about the interview in any sense, merely raising an eyebrow at the pitch / appeal to the audience. Which is not suspected of being Tracing's responsibility in any way.

Maybe it's mentioned in the video and not caught in the text.

He said the interview included discussion of "niche online communities," which it does appear to include. That is nominally "places like TheMotte," but you're right that the actual discussion is quite non-specific.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


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