This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Sir, there's been four new Nazi/Hitler/antisemitic issues in the conservative community in just the past day
Following the recent Politico expose on the Young Republicans groupchat leak among mid 20s-30s leaders of the organization containing comments about gas chambering their political opponents and antisemitic remarks like this
In the followup to this, yes you heard it right, at least four new antisemitic and/or Nazi controversies in the past day or so.
A flag with a swatiska embedded in it was spotted in the office of Representative Dave Taylor. Rep. Taylor has called it out and condemned it, and it's quite possible he never noticed it before himself but it does seem to be another sign of the embedded antisemitic and pro nazi rhetoric in lower level staffers if one of them put it up.
Additionally, the Border Patrol posted a video on an Instagram containing an antisemitic slur. While the higher ups of the border patrol likely don't have much to do with what gets posted on the social media, it's again another bad sign that the lower levels who coordinate posts and approve them are antisemitic. Someone had to specifically pick that particular verse of that particular version of that particular song, they knew what they were posting and whatever approval process they use, the others would have heard the lyrics and yet signed on.
The third controversy is the most explicit of them all. Myron Gaines, host of the Fresh and Fit podcast (1.58 million subscribers on YouTube alone) posted
Now, I never would have imagine that the word woke includes "thinking the Holocaust is real and Hitler is bad", but that seems to be where we are at now. Gaines is also a former employee of the DHS, which is just another point of evidence of low level gop aligned staffers having pro Nazi/antisemitic views.
But in fact, all of this seems to be par for the course, according to Andrew Torba, CEO of Gab. who also wades into the ring of antisemitic Holocaust denialism with comments like
That's right, at least two major conservative names have directly engaged in unashamed pro Nazi/Holocaust denialism/etc rhetoric in response to the group chat leak and both of them strongly believe that many other high level conservatives agree with them (Myron's use of "We like Hitler and Torba saying it's normal).
As Richard Hanania (Writer of "The Origins of Woke" who has been in many conservative spaces before) explained months before the leak, this is actually pretty common. As he's said before, the two types of comments he tends to get "it can't be that bad" and "lol that's exactly what it's like" such as this agreement from National Review reporter James Lynch
What's interesting is that the one thing both the Nazi denouncers (Hanania/Lynch/etc) and Nazi defenders (Myron/Torba/etc) here both seem to agree on, is that this is common among the young right. There seems to be a broad consensus that this gropyer antisemitic Nazism is growing among conservatives, especially young ones. We've seen this with Kanye and his descent into Nazism, we've seen this with John Reid and Mike Robinson both exposed over their Nazi fetish. We've seen this with Tucker Carlson and Daryl Cooper. The rapid growth of figures like Nick "six million cookies" Fuentes, Ian Carroll and Theo Von. In fact a neo Nazi inspired kid was even behind a recent school shooting in Colorado a few months ago
EW Erickson says https://x.com/EWErickson/status/1978812093773041964
Ben Shapiro says that unity with radicals will destroy the right wing as it pushes moderate Americans away.
Right wing conservative libertarian speaker Phil Magness says
So with all this recent controversy, how big of a Nazi problem is actually festering, and why do the Nazis seem to feel so comfortable in modern conservativism? They even seem to be dropping hints at the highest levels if the border patrol video was intended as a dog whistle to be dropped before deleting. Is this growing widespread agreement (from Hanania to Torba) that this is just the tip of the iceberg among young conservatives accurate? Will this growing trend of Nazi radicalism destroy the Republicans chances among moderates in the future like embracing left wing radicalism hurt Biden? And how do the non Nazi conservatives and moderates balance fighting off Nazi accusations from the left also working to stem this apparant rise of unashamed nazism and Holocaust denialism?
You've been catching a lot of flak over this, and I am already tired of the "Nazi!" topic, and besides there's probably a lesson to be learned from history about spotting extremism early and preventing it from turning moderate societies into failed states...
...but given the last decades, I really don't care anymore. Bring on the nazis. I'd rather have literal Hitler spread his brain-rot than give the left another day to spread theirs. Thank you but it's been quite enough. My patience ran out with some finality at some point in 2021. If we can't have nice things, then I'll be living on spite.
Well add another to the pile of evidence that Hitlerism and Nazism is growing.
You know he is very literally not a republican, right? As in, literally doesn't even live in the right country.... probably in the only one where he's been beaten over the head even more with false alarms of "Nazi! Nazi! They're back!".
Did I say he was?
I said that it's just more evidence of growing Hitlerism and Nazism which is what "Bring on the nazis. I'd rather have literal Hitler" is.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Let me second Southkraut's comment and say that, if this serves as evidence for you, then this comment of yours along with the rest of your comments on this thread have convinced me more than ever that Nazism being a problem in the right is basically entirely the invention of motivated reasoning by their political enemies. This is due to seeing the type of reasoning that you employ that leads you to such a conclusion.
This is what they said. I didn't write this, they did. I don't think you're gonna convince me that this isn't pro Nazi rhetoric, I'm typically opposed to calling things "gaslighting" or "telling me to ignore what is in front of my eyes" or something, but I don't see any serious argument that "bring on the Nazis, I'd rather have Hitler than the left" is anything other than a pro Nazi sentiment. Unless he's not being serious in the comment in which case whoops!
"Bring on the nazis. I'd rather have literal Hitler spread his brain-rot than give the left another day to spread theirs."
Is it common knowledge that Nazis in the 30s were only into it because it wasn't communism? Or were they positively proactive about it (as was my impression)?
More options
Context Copy link
Nobody thinks they're going to convince you of anything, they're just letting you know that your magic words don't work anymore. Just skip to the part where you post a big angry screed and never come back, because the part where everyone decides to humor your precious moralizing is just never coming.
Go ahead, explain how this isn't pro nazi
If you're asking people to gaslight themselves, it never works. You get the loyalists to close their eyes sure, but the loyalists aren't the ones who need to close their eyes. You want the moderates and normies to side with you.
This is what Ben Shapiro is talking about. Rallying around the nazis is not just a bad idea to begin with (because the Nazis are bad to begin with), but also the normies don't like Nazis and it's a stupid political idea to actively associate yourself with widely unpopular statements like that. The progressives lost because they embraced their radical wing, why make the same mistake?
It was explained several times in the thread. Why do you keep taking quotes out of context, and ignoring answers given to you?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Again, if you believe that someone saying
means "Hitlerism and Nazism is growing," then your standards of evidence show me just how much this sort of conclusion requires grasping at straws. Preferring literal Hitler brain-rot over leftist brain-rot doesn't mean that the person is either into Hitlerism or Nazism.
Biden was a terrible president, but if you'd have rather have Hitler over him then yeah, you probably are into Hitlerism. The average American doesn't feel that way.
More options
Context Copy link
Personally, while I do think kitty is grasping at straws making equivalences, I do think there is smoke here. I don't think "I wouldn't care if the party I seem to support became pro-Nazi" is to a significant degree better than actual support for Nazis.
I am in the unenviable position of being anti-woke left. I am pro legal immigration; want regulated, anti-oligarchy capitalism; some gun regulation; and broadly think the the Republican party does more shitty things than the Democrats. But I hate the left's obsession with race and identity. That's why I'm here, because I'm looking for places I can talk that aren't too group-thinky one way or another.
But the popular sentiment here seems to be that because I vote left I bear some culpability for the shit leftists do because I enable them. Conversely, the right gets basically an unlimited-use free pass so long as there is some leftist act that can be deemed worse. They never cancel each other out either. The same leftist act could be used to excuse 10,000 different right leaning actions.
And here it's stated pretty much crystal clear. Right up there with MovieBob's "There are no bad tactics, only bad targets." It's a pretty flat admittance that there's no point engaging with you because you don't have any standards. It's not even "I don't care about this example," it's "I will never care."
I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on which side is worse. What I'm aiming for it consistency on whether a side is culpable for its own bad apples. Everywhere I go, left or right, it's "excuses for my side, maximum uncharitability for my opponents." I won't say I'm immune to it either, but I try to see things how the other side would see it.
The moderate left exists to provide reputational cover for the progressive left and the moderates are too cowardly to stand up to the progressives. Biden bails out the teamsters as an expensive reward but also issues communiques with language about birthing persons latinx, opens the border for millions of illegal migrants while pretending that border encounters are what people care about and threaten title ix trans compliance for school funding. The nonwoke left is now viewed (rightly) as hypocrites pretending to champion Common Sense things but actually are just going to run full tilt into progressive cause celebres immediately.
The problem for the nonwoke left is that the extreme far right is now back in play thanks to the tarring of everyone unwoke as a nazi. Partially though this can be attributed to woke tactics being employed in new battlefields where previous rules limited employment of such tactics. If wokes want to play race essentialism, then whites are happy to play that game too. Once you westerners are done with bronze league white-black racism you can play in gold league balkan racism to get your toes really wet before diving into asian ultraracism.
This sounds like the horseshoe version of the progressive complaint that centrists provide cover for the far right. But no. The moderate left exists because they have their own policy goals, and a democratic system often involves allying with people whom you don't entirely agree with but can tolerate to an extent. This is true for the right as well, which is why Mr. "Trump is unfit for our nation's highest office" is now playing second fiddle to the guy he once insulted.
But again, my point is the consistency. Does the right exist to provide reputational cover for every crazy Republican, up to and especially Trump? Do you also have to answer for everything your side does, and abandon your beliefs if someone odious holds something vaguely similar? Because that's the same argument progressives lob at me whenever I argue against wokism.
Many on this forum have said they flat-out don't care about the right's excesses but the left's are so egregious that nothing could top it. If I say I believe that I believe the right's excesses are actually pretty damn egregious, does that give me license to just dismiss any complaints about the wokies with "I don't care?" No, it wouldn't. It would just prove there's no point engaging with me, because I'm just a partisan with no principles.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If this serves as evidence to you, then you are really, really desperate for it.
I mean while I find left-Pearl clutching over Nazi claims extremely tiresome, you did literally say "Bring on the nazis"
I guess you're more of a "subtle acceptance" than a "full throated supporter" but still, you didn't exactly make it hard for him there lol
It's the Chen Sheng Rebellion of support. Damned either way.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes, bring them on if the choice is between them and the modern left. Was I unclear about that?
That being held sufficient to qualify as outright nazism in itself...it illustrates why this entire discussion is absurd.
But a number of Nazi supporters in 1930 Germany would have voiced their support in term of "better them than the Bolsheviks", no? I don't think you can no-true-Scotsman a form of Nazi support away if it would rule out a plurality of actual 1930s Nazis.
And at the time, they were right. The Bolsheviks were worse and hobbled the entire region for decades.
Rather unfortunate about what happened in between, but eastern Germany is still far behind the west in terms of economics and development, 70 years later, isn't it?
If your point is comparing progressives to the Bolsheviks... then I'm gonna take my chances that the current right isn't genocidal, because I'm pretty sure the current progressives are just as destructive as the old given a chance.
FWIW, West Germany did get a lot of help after the war, while the east was thoroughly exploited by its overlords.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If the choice is between Nazis and the modern left, what is the actual difference in practice between an outright Nazi and someone who "only" would rather have Nazis than the modern left? It looks like they're both working towards the same goal. Even if the "preferrer" intends to try and slow the swing of the pendulum from the left to Nazism once it starts being too Nazi for his taste, at the moment he's all too happy to help it gain momentum.
For the record I do not believe that the choice is between Nazis and the modern left, although I grant that picking "nazis" appears a lot simpler for many than picking the middle.
You said it yourself. The "preferrer" and the actual nazi are aligned in their purpose temporarily. Yet they are not the same.
As for whether this is the choice - that depends on
More options
Context Copy link
As some Spartan once allegedly wrote in a message,
I think the issue is that, generally (dunno about Southkraut himself), people who genuinely prefer Nazism to modern leftism see modern leftism as having the same sins as Nazism, but worse, or perhaps more dangerous. So if things became too Nazi for their taste, it wouldn't make sense to push for modern leftism, since modern leftism is even further along the spectrum in the direction they don't want to go.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
At this stage, where everyone to the right of Karl Marx is a Nazi, I too am "Bring on the Nazis". If we're going to have fascists under every bush, let them be real fascists out in the open where we can fight them and not "well you are not convinced that someone can be a non-binary trans femme presenting masc butch two-spirit gender fluid genderqueer person with a feminine penis who is a Real Woman in every sense the same as your cis het self, so you are indeed Goering come again" fascists.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I’m also super over this. It’s like these people have never heard of a self fulfilling prophecy; if you keep telling people that wanting to have a functioning society is fascism, do you think that will just scare people away forever?
Ironically I get huge “hitler in the bunker / battle of Berlin” vibes from these increasingly shrill and desperate progressives who keep spamming the “hitler” button hoping to score a critical hit. Maybe with a touch of Baghdad Bob.
Increasingly the only people listening are just the most thoroughly propagandized. The story of multiple institutions desperately vying for the support of a shrinking and increasingly socially isolated group of people is just the story of progressives in The Long Current Year.
It’s also extra funny because
1.) I’m not white 2.) I’m very pro Israel 3.) I’m not even remotely anti-Semitic
4.) I’m married to a non white immigrant with non white children 5.) I live and work in a very high percentage immigrant community
And I’m not even the only person who I know personally that meets this description that I know of that is entirely over this shit. On paper someone like me would have sympathy for the supposed “anti-Nazi” side but at this point I wouldn’t piss on a progressive if they were on fire.
Because I firmly believe this dominant progressive narrative which superficially is ‘on my side’ is deeply toxic and extremely bad for everyone. I don’t want to live in South Africa, and I don’t want my children to live there either, but if the supposed “anti-fascist” forces prevail that’s increasingly what looks like would happen.
“Mit dem Angriff Politicos wird das alles in Ordnung kommen.”
“Mein Führer … Politico …”
http://www.vulture.com/2010/01/the_director_of_downfall_on_al.html
A noble sentiment from a more civilised age.
He seems like a thoughtful guy. I hope he's stayed that way and hasn't succumbed to one of the various flavors of brainrot circulating these days. We need sane artists.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Easily one of the top 20 memes of the 21st century, never fails to entertain
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link