This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
To be honest, throughout all the books Harry acted impulsively and against good advice of most of his allies. There is a reason why Yud was pissed or let's say motivated enough, to create a non-moronic version of Harry in his own fanfic. The fact that Harry even lives can be assigned more to dumb luck rather than anything else, so it makes sense that people keep secrets from him. Heck, Dumbledore himself held the prophecy for himself and told to Harry about it only in OOTP book you read - because basically he thought that Harry would be dumb enough to disobey and get himself killed if told earlier. And for good reason, Harry is just a child and being dumb is excusable. The same goes for Dumbledore keeping the truth about horcruxes for himself up until the last minute. The idea was to keep Harry free of concerns and give him normal childhood, but the unsaid part in this noble speech is that Dumbledore did not trust that Harry would keep it all secret, and would spill it over to somebody so that Voldemort would learn about the fact, and he would put together that Harry is a horcrux.
By the way, there is a great video comparing Frodo Baggins and Harry Potter as heroes, arguing that they are the opposites. Harry is the "chosen one", a special hero who on the other hand acts like a moron trying to do normal stuff like playing sports games and fooling around, while almost getting himself killed multiple times due to his own stupidity. Of course a lot of it is a plot device to make especially Hermione look awesome, but it is still there as his character trait. While Frodo is a normal or even unassuming guy especially among the heroes of the fellowship, but he almost always acts with integrity, courage and wisdom. This in turn paradoxically makes him extra special to the extent that he is even trusted with the One Ring as he can resist its temptations.
You think Harry Threenames is non-moronic? The little I read that was quoted about how great this new version was and everyone should read it made me want to slap the face off him and hope that he'd be eaten by a magical creature the second he did his "haw haw, I am Big Brains Know It All" performance about knowing magic better than adult wizards and witches despite never hearing of it until ten minutes beforehand.
EDIT: I know, I know: everyone says it gets better in the later chapters, Harry stops being such a brat, and EY deliberately wrote him like that at the start. I doubt that part, I think EY was writing Haroldus Potterus-Evansus-Verresus as a self-insert about being a boy genius autodidact whom adults didn't understand and so feared and bullied him and that's why it's okay if he bites his teacher during a meltdown while his legal guardians only laugh it off, and only due to reaction while writing the webserial about "Hey, Haroldus The Magnificent And Always Perfectly Correct is a pain in the you-know-what" did he tone it down. Like ST Enterprise etc., 'it gets better later, trust me' was too late, it had lost me by then.
Harry Potter is written in the traditional British children's fantasy fiction mould. So of course he's the gender-swapped Cinderella at the start. Of course he and a small band of friends go off adventuring despite the grown-ups trying to keep them out of trouble and abiding by the rules. For the non-magical version, see The Famous Five by Enid Blyton (an astoundingly popular British children's author of yore, during the 30s-50s) and the various boarding school stories for both boys and girls.
For the fantasy version, nearly too many to mention, from E. Nesbit to Alan Garner onwards, plus all kinds of TV shows (e.g. The Worst Witch based on a novel series first published in the 70s). Rowling isn't unique or novel, she's writing in a well-established tradition, but she successfully cracked the global fame formula.
More options
Context Copy link
As much as it was never going to happen, even at the time of the series I remember really liking the 'Harry is a decoy chosen one / Neville was the real boy who lived' theories for what it could have let Harry Potter be.
Mostly for Harry's character flaws, though not because they make him a worse protagonist. Quite the opposite. Harry being reckless, careless, and not inclined to be discrete are great protagonist flaws. They balance how Harry even as a child had real character virtues- brave, friendly, above the bigotries of the setting. But those virtues, and child age, don't negate the sort of self-centeredness which, while natural/appropriate for a young boy, detracted from a sort of humility that might have been initially assumed from the 'abused / eager-to-please boy' of his early years.
Neville being the real child of prophesy, but Dumbledore letting Harry be the one drawing attention to himself, would have had a number of interesting elements. It would have required better working Neville into book plots to have a slowly emerging role, and thus required Harry to have a few more close male friends over the series than just Ron, but that could have worked well as a parallel to Harry's awkward-but-building friendship with Cedric in Goblet of Fire (where Harry went from the awkward younger male in the dynamic to the more confident/established alternative to Neville). It would have reframed Dumbledore's indulgences of Harry, since it could be seen as a darker user relationship (encouraging Harry to act out), but then it might also have reframed parts of it positively (Dumbledore not manipulating Harry into destiny).
But what could have really made it stand out was as a character challenge to Harry himself, to have gone through a character arc of having come to believe the lie that he was the special / chosen hero, coming upon the revelation that he wasn't the special / chosen one after all, but overcoming it to still be a hero, except this time with humility. It doesn't mean that Neville has to displace Harry as the protagonist of the series, or the leading role in various plots, but reframing the later series as Harry realizing that he is the decoy- that he is drawing the attention / threats / danger that Neville isn't ready for while Neville has to overcome his past trauma and grow to face his own destiny- opens up a lot of juicy character drama.
Like, letting Harry be arrogant / have wounded pride. Hasn't he been the hero so far? Isn't he better than the wimpy, loserly Neville? Isn't he richer than his best friend, who is minor wizard nobility / established family? Isn't he the prodigy who speaks snake-tongue, manifests patroneus, and has a super-cool uncle/patron who got him the best broomstick to win at quidditch with? Isn't he the one who gets young girls crushing on him after dashingly saving them? Why can't he be the chosen hero on top of all that? It's Not Fair!
But also- if he's not the actual Boy Who Lived, what will he be if that title is taken away from him? He'll be an orphan with no name and no clue, a middling quidditch player. Worse, who will be left if, when, he's revealed to be a fraud? Will anyone believe him, will the girl he liked / the girls who liked him because of that reputation, and then got to know him, still like 'him' if the popular legend stops being so popular? Harry started the series as a friendless, family-less, isolated child, and what wouldn't he do to not go back to that?
And yet...
And yet, Harry growing to overcome that, and how, could be equally interesting. Take Neville. Neville's start in the series has many (deliberate) parallels to Harry, but he's clearly traumatized in a way Harry was not. (And, vice versa, is not in ways Harry was by his abusive family.) Neville is not yet a man, is not confident, and not ready. He quivers under Snape, and were worse to find him... well, in Goblet of Fire Harry comes off as worse in many ways to Cedric, the older boy who has what Harry wants (the girl, the confidence, the respect of peers). The 'gift' of being thrown into the tournament was no gift, but Harry survived and burnished the legend. Could Neville have survived, let alone thrived, as Harry did?
But Neville could also be framed as a person who looks up to Harry. Like a good Gryffindor, Harry, even as a child, is brave where Neville is not. Harry is popular where Neville is not. Harry acts when Neville when freeze. But most of all, Harry is kind despite all of that, or maybe because of all that, because Harry has been the boy shoved into a closet and worse. Harry is a jock, true, but he acts out of concern, and dislikes cruel bullies, and at least tries to do the right thing despite his jealousies (Cedric) or his dislikes (Malfoy) even if Harry isn't constrained by rules. Harry is happy to help others. Harry is not just the sort of person Neville probably wants to be more like, but also the sort of person who- personal dynamics otherwise- could help Neville grow into someone who can stand up not just for himself, but for others as the hero.
This is a relationship dynamic that could be worked with, especially for how it might play to Harry's arrogance / insecurities. Does Harry just think it's his due at first? That Neville is a fanboy for the Boy Who Lived? After Harry realizes the truth, does Harry feel jealous or insecure, wondering if Neville knows? When Harry realizes the influence that he has over Neville- and that his positive influence is itself what may lead to Neville assuming the mantle of Chosen Hero- what does that mean to him, and to them? If Harry knows he has Neville's trust, and knows he could reveal the truth or hide the secret that gives him his status, what would he do? Especially when both hiding and revealing the truth could be simultaneously selfless and selfish: is Harry hiding it because he wants to protect his status, or because it protects Neville? Would he consider revealing it because Neville Needs to Know, or because he's tired of being the increasing target of the Dark Lord's attention in a war he didn't ask for?
That would be a good character story not only in itself, but also help reframe Harry's place with his friends, which addresses Harry's insecurity. Part of Harry's growth can come from realizing that people like him for him, not just his legend. Ron's signature trait is loyalty, and certainly isn't sticking with Harry to nose up for perks or money. Hermoine as a mudblood never knew the legend, just that he was the boy she met on the train who saved her from a troll in the bathroom. Even the animosities were natural. Draco who might have been fake friends with the Boy Who Lived would be as petty a bully to a commoner-potter, or a Neville-he-didn't-know-better-about. Snape's deal was with Potter, the parents, not The Boy Who Lived.
But just as important for the character arc and series culmination, Harry can learn / actualize that people also like him for his relationships with others. Yes, he saved Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets, which is grounds enough to transition a hero-crush to a personal-hero crush, but he's friendly and capable of being friends with looney Luna, her friend that others avoid. Yes, he finds magically-attractive Fleur attractive, but her regard is won by him risking himself for her sister in the tournament, not his place in it as a legend. When Harry comes to fixate on his legend, his friendships can wane- the sort of distancing where his insecurities When Harry can overcome that by having a true friendship with Neville, then it can inspire others- including Neville- into the Dubledore Army or whatnot that nominally exists to support Harry, but secretly supports Neville, with whom Harry is in alignment.
I imagine such a series finale would go into its endgame with Neville integrated into the core three, all knowing the truth but keeping the lie so that Harry can play the part of decoy protagonist and draw away the Dark Lord's attention so that Neville can do his Chosen One deed. Harry's earlier flaws- his brash, reckless nature- are allowed to be assets complimenting his virtues, even as Harry's greatest virtue from the character arc- his growth of true humility, as opposed to the abused boy syndrome he had at the start- is what lets Neville take the Dark Lord by surprise.
Truly a power the Dark Lord knows not.
At which point the story can wrap up with its happily ever after where the series-long secret is revealed, but ends with Neville publicly crediting / elevating Harry as the indispensable hero in defeating the dark lord, in a parallel to how over the books Harry helped elevate Neville into the chosen hero he needed to be. Harry might lose the mythic hero backstory he no longer cares so much about, but gains a new (genuine) heroic legend to replace it, and more importantly keeps the personal relationships he was once afraid of losing. War scars the survivors, but the optimism is there, as not just Harry, but people he's influenced like Neville are in turn giving hope / building up the next generation more than Harry himself ever could have alone.
Cue the series end, with Harry Potter ending it as the hero of his own story, just not in the way he intended it to be, but having developed other character virtues that bring him to the company of fictional greats like Frodo.
More options
Context Copy link
Speaking of LOTR and rings, does anyone else want to see a tv show/book where Galadriel (not the new tv series version) gets her hands on the ring and uses it to take over.
More options
Context Copy link
To be fair, Frodo inherits the ring at 33 years old and goes on his quest at 50.
The sheer amount of idiocy (even for a teen!) that Harry consistently exhibits is not the kind to go away with age. He’d grow more tired but not much wiser.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link