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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   31936 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

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What's unhealthy about being gay or lesbian? I guess transgenderism is different because it's kind of defined as dysmorphia even by its activists, but I don't see anything unhealthy about homosexuality.

The main reason you don't see anything unhealthy about homosexuality is that there exists a bustling antiretroviral industry that stops the gay population's numbers from collapsing practically overnight. Most other populations manage to survive without corporate sponsorship.

Most other populations manage to survive without corporate sponsorship.

Corporate sponsorship is all that separates us from malthusianism, under which most extant populations would collapse.

I'm not sure how relevant it is that some people are making very good money off of HIV retrovirals. Whether or not homosexuality is healthy or not would, ultimately, be the result of some interaction with society and technology, just as with anything else. For those of us fortunate to live in developed western countries, many things are safe that would otherwise not be - like drinking tap water or sleeping without a mosquito net. That's true whether or not Big Mosquito Net is making a lot of money.

I mean, really, what percentage of women died in childbirth before modern medicine? Enough that we could say that pregnancy is unhealthy?

I mean, really, what percentage of women died in childbirth before modern medicine? Enough that we could say that pregnancy is unhealthy?

Pregnancy surely is unhealthy for the individual. Even without counting within-pregnancy/immediate postpartum things like pre/eclampsia and risk of hemorrhage amongst a litany of other issues, there are potential long term sequelae like pelvic wall issues (leading to incontinence) and increased risk of diabetes (if a lady is unlucky enough to have gestational diabetes). (I think there’s also something about increased risk of dental issues and permanent skin changes but I’m not sure or very knowledgeable on that front)

The first relevant thing that came to mind on the topic of skin changes is stretch marks, which at the least are aesthetically distressing.

I fail to see this as a particularly compelling argument.

You could say that modern feminism is also as equally dependent on "corporate sponsorship" because in the absence of birth control the sexual freedom they desire is impossible.

Sure, but "feminism" is not a demographic group, and I consider there to be a qualitative difference between "doesn't have sexual freedom without corporate sponsorship" and "will literally die without Gilead (NASDAQ: GILD)".

Well no, it isn’t. Women desiring sexual freedom could sterilize themselves, or have abortions, or just abandon their babies, or insist on condoms. Or be good enough at counting to statistically not get pregnant very often.

In that case gays who are absolutely adamant about avoiding AIDs could insist on screening partners and using condoms. You can go by revealed preferences that they care less than really ought to, albeit AIDs is no longer a death sentence in the civilized world.

"Corporate sponsorship", a basic facet of modernity, makes things easier for almost all of us, barring the dearly departed Ted.

Well sure- and I think this is your point here- it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Personally I’m quite comfortable with drawing the line at ‘necessary to avoid the normal consequences of your own actions’.

That's a form of sexual freedom, but perhaps not the sexual freedom "they desire," which seems to include (among many other unrelated things, of course) the freedom to have sex without committing to being a mother without having to sterilize themselves, or getting an abortion, or feeling the guilt of abandoning a baby, or using a condom, or having to count.

Well yeah, but ‘do whatever I want with no constraints or work involved and I never have to feel guilty’ is simply not how the real world works.

Perhaps so, but I think it's clear that modern feminism is largely about changing the real world so that it does work that way, with no constraints or work involved or feeling guilty or facing undesired consequences, at least in certain preferred topics for certain preferred people. Given that the real world doesn't and, AFAIK, has never worked that way, changing the world to do so even within just this limited scope is the kind of hugely difficult endeavor that requires corporate sponsorship.

You could say that modern feminism is also as equally dependent on "corporate sponsorship"

I mean... yes? That's certainly an argument that's been made before. I don't think it's prima facie unreasonable.

In another reply, I stated that a good chunk of the populace depends on the kind of industrial machinery, seeds and fertilizers required for agriculture. That counts as corporate sponsorship required for staying alive too, so it's a rather diffuse argument to make.

I think it's a claim about what sort of lifestyles and practices could exist in principle in the absence of corporate sponsorship, not whether any of us in actuality are free of it in 2023.

We know that people can survive in the absence of corporate sponsorship. They did it for millennia. Granted, gay people have existed for millennia too, although perhaps not with the level of promiscuity we see today.

Our civilization is much more dependant on corporate sponsorship than gays are. 99% of people would die without it due to mass starvation, while the percentage of gays who'd die without meds would be much lower.

What's true is that gays are more dependant because they depend on the medical industry in addition to depending on modern agriculture/ logistics like everyone else. But it seems to be an arbitrary line to draw.

Will feminists actually die if they don't get birth control?

Is it unreasonable to say women who derive a sense of purpose from caring for their children are less likely to be active feminists ?

It's certainly harmful to the political movement.

A good chunk of humanity would die if we didn't have industrialized agriculture relying on machinery, fertilizers and seeds produced by a relatively small number of companies. I'm suitably thankful for that kind of "corporate" sponsorship.

They could just wear condoms and survive. In fact I've wondered if PrEP is going to usher in a wave of STDs as it makes not wearing condoms seems like a valid choice for some.

Also lesbians have especially low STD rates. Shall I accept that as a reason to advocate lesbianism since we are apparently concerned with STD rates? Or is this concern selectively targeted?

In fact I've wondered if PrEP is going to usher in a wave of STDs as it makes not wearing condoms seems like a valid choice for some.

It took about 14 years between the legalisation of male homosexuality and the HIV epidemic. If you were going to design an incubator for STDs, then globalised male homosexuality is a pretty good one, but for the fact that its nurturing environment has been temporarily made less potent by fear of AIDS.

The next HIV might not be as bad, but it could be worse.

In fact I've wondered if PrEP is going to usher in a wave of STDs as it makes not wearing condoms seems like a valid choice for some.

I have seen quite prominent "GONORRHEA ALERT" billboards in some jurisdictions, and apparently the numbers suggest this is actually happening, as the common strains are now antibiotic-resistant.

The antibiotic resistant clap is apparently of Indian origin. And yeah, they're very likely to spread it around because there's no other demographic whose significant fraction has weekly orgies.

Interestingly, my state put up billboards and wall-ads encouraging gay men to get the monkeypox vaccine and get a PrEP prescription so they could "get your pride on."

I get that gay guys like to fuck. Good for them. But does this have to include raw dogging strangers? HIV isn't the problems here, it's every STD at that point.

I suspect that raw dogging large numbers of strangers is the sexual norm that would be developed by any group made up entirely of people with male sex drives.

Condoms are cheap and plentiful already, often even free. Even so, 1 in 6 homosexual men will be diagnosed with HIV in their lifetime, with the number rising to 50% of gay black men. I'm unaware of any other demographic whose existence is only made possible by pharmaceutical companies stepping in to stop 16-50% of the population and its subgroups from dying in the streets due to self-inflicted pathogens.

Also lesbians have especially low STD rates. Shall I accept that as a reason to advocate lesbianism since we are apparently concerned with STD rates? Or is this concern selectively targeted?

Sure, go ahead. Lesbians mostly slap each other around AFAIK, but that happens behind closed doors and doesn't require billions in health spending to prevent national contagions, so I'll freely admit I don't care about it as much.

I'm unaware of any other demographic whose existence is only made possible by pharmaceutical companies stepping in to stop 16-50% of the population and its subgroups from dying in the streets due to self-inflicted pathogens.

The infant mortality rate was 46% a scant 200 years ago. Presumably it would reach that again in the absence of modern medicine and sanitation. Literally every demographic is heavily dependent on government and corporate spending.

If infant mortality went up, so would birth rates almost certainly.

Literally every demographic is heavily dependent on government and corporate spending.

Bullshit. People were breeding more prolifically in the absence of government spending. Daily doses of excitement and the meaning derived from imposing your will on the hostile world are what we evolved to do.

Being docile cubicle drone is unnatural which is why people are so sad now.

In the same way that withholding maternal/infant care wouldn't cause the human race to go extinct, withholding HIV medication wouldn't cause the extinction of the gay community. Clearly OP means 'dependent on medical care' as shorthand for 'dependent on medical care for a relatively normal healthspan/lifespan,' not 'dependent on medical care for the group to exist, period.'

Even then, people for some reason love assuming that group behaviour is static. Whites have below replacement birth rates so we MUST DO SOMETHING NOW or they will go extinct! Gays are reckless so if medical care is withdrawn they will go extinct from AIDS! It's as if they haven't even thought of the idea that people behave differently when in peril vs. out of peril.

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You're ignoring the self-inflicted part. There's no inherent reason why gay men should be more exposed to STDs than any other population.

Fair enough. Although to a large extent, it's just bad luck that HIV is so difficult to vaccinate against/treat paired with much easier anal/i.v. transmission versus vaginal. In a world where HIV was cured with a round of antibiotics similarly to syphilis or gonorrhea I suspect CD would nevertheless hate the gays.

Speaking of self-inflicted diseases necessitating medical intervention, I hope he isn't obese. You could level his argument at more or less the entite developed world and diseases of affluence.

In a world where HIV was cured with a round of antibiotics similarly to syphilis or gonorrhea I suspect CD would nevertheless hate the gays.

Didn't he point out that the issue of AIDS and other STDs is already preventable? If he hates them, it seems to stem from the lack of precautions they are taking, rather than them being gay.

Speaking of self-inflicted diseases necessitating medical intervention, I hope he isn't obese. You could level his argument at more or less the entite developed world and diseases of affluence.

Yup!

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