domain:traditionsofconflict.com
ulyssessword
11m ago
Measuring, maybe, but that's hardly all the legislature does.
I didn't set the standards we're discussing here. The claim upthread is "All political action is violence." If you didn't agree with that, then it would've been nice to know earlier. I don't have any reason to debate the fact that some political action is violence.
cjet79
17m ago
What is your threshold for being convinced? If you don't have one that's fine, that saves me even more time.
magicalkittycat
23m ago
I think you have a very sad and hateful view of what men are like if you believe they're all joking about how Jews are dishonest and gas chambers.
magicalkittycat
24m ago
Well I guess we've proven the group chat's fears that any disagreement = getting called a RINO and lib correct.
This "world" I'm living in is also called TheMotte. Every other comment here is agreeing with me.
That's crazy, the place you choose to associate with has similar opinions to you? Incredible! That totally disproves the idea that other people exist with different views.
Also "every other comment" except for the ones like me who are disagreeing with you.
Similar to the percentage of men that jerk off to porn. Sorry if that is also a revelation to you.
If you think the amount of men who joke about their love for Hitler and say Jews are dishonest is the same as men who like porn, you seem to have a very pessimistic and sad view of men. There are lots of fantastic guys. Even lots of fantastic conservative guys who are actively condemning this behavior like Governor Scott, or some of the guys at the Babylon bee or some of the National Review reporters.
I don't think I'm the one lacking in theory of mind. Everyone here is telling you this is a common experience and your response has basically been 'no way!' how many people would you need to hear it from to believe us?
And there are also lots of men who say "No, I don't talk about how Jews are dishonest all the time". Sure maybe they're pretty much all lying, but it's also possible that you are stuck in a Hitler Bubble where you associate with others in the hitler bubble and you can't fathom that there are tons of great and fine men not in the Hitler Bubble.
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
33m ago
A missed element of this discussion is that some people are lambasting these young men for just using the lingo they grew up with. Why are our progressive friends so full of hostility for other cultures? Do they just hate black people? Is there anything in those chats that isn't weak and mild compared to an all time hip-hop banger? (Appologies in advance for scaring the hoes and Will Stancil).
Rex
34m ago
I don’t want to be the edgy guy here. But hear me out. None of these people are or support neo nazis. But they likely think the actual nazis had some good ideas. Especially since the nazis were dealing with a lot of similar problems like Leftist degeneracy. And were quite successful!
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
46m ago
Nah. I can recognize the difference between organizing and directing people to assault others, and measuring environmental contaminants. The first one is closer to violence, if it was unclear to you
Measuring, maybe, but that's hardly all the legislature does. Sometimes crime bosses just order lunch too. The legislature makes rules which the direct result of which is violence applied to those who disobey, and no amount of talking about environmental contaminants will change that.
quiet_NaN
47m ago
We know this not least because Actual-Nazis had a historical record of being murderously serious about their agendas as identified in formal Nazi literature, and openly self-identified as Nazis in very serious contexts.
Come on, that is a strawman you are beating. Nobody is suggesting that these guys are members of the NSDAP, an organization which was disbanded long before they were born. Since 1945, only the very stupid have openly expressed admiration for the NSDAP in the Western world. The ones with a bit of a brain have noticed that openly flying the swastika is a good way to become a social outcast.
In Germany, there are numerous links between the far-right anti-migration AfD and neofascist organizations.
Imagine you are a 25yo white nationalist in today's America. Now you could get a swastika tattoo and join the Aryan Brotherhood or something, but then you will never make a difference. Or you could join one of the two major parties, and the one closer aligned to your views are the Republicans. Of course, merely supporting mainstream Republican policy will not save the White race, you want to increase support for your own world view.
Jokes in small groups are a great way to reach a common understanding that Nazis are not icky. Obviously not everyone who plays along is a Nazi, perhaps some only like the jokes because the SJ people are whining about the Nazis all the time, but it is very much a step in the right direction, moving the overton window where you want it to go.
sodiummuffin
50m ago
Politico: ‘I love Hitler’: Leaked messages expose Young Republicans’ racist chat
This is apparently the context of the headline "I love Hitler" comment:
AD: Yea I had some back and forth with the VC in Michigan, current chair is a deer in headlights
AD: We have a call Wednesday
PG: Many agree
AD: He did say "My delegates I bring will vote for the most right wing person"
PG: Great. I love Hitler
This is obvious sarcasm mocking the idea of automatically voting for whoever is most right-wing.
Skimming the article seems to indicate this dishonesty is a systematic issue. For instance it specifically claims "the watermelon people" was referring to black people without providing context, when it very likely refers to Gaza supporters in reference to their use of the watermelon emoji as a symbol. If you search "watermelon people" on Twitter every usage I can find before this article is about Gaza, it seems to be an established term.
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
53m ago
Not really much to say but "lighten up, Francis". People do use jokes for that. They also use jokes for other things. For instance, if the members of a group knows that people who don't like them much think certain jokes are beyond the pale, they might use them as a shibboleth. Or if they know what their opponents think of them, they might jokingly adopt that persona as a way of jeering in their general direction.
As Stalin once said, dark humor is like food; not everyone gets it. Doesn't mean everyone who uses it is Stalin (or Hitler)
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1hr ago
· Edited 58m ago
Well, the flip side of this is that with the righty reaction to the lefty reaction to the Kirk assassination, the Right has also thoroughly burned its "it's just banter" card. If the two competing party programmes in the US actually start being perceived as "install a modern version of Hitler" vs. "shoot all Charlie Kirks", which one do you figure will have majority support?
(In other words: any fucks you give are for your own sake, not the left's. As with everything in US politics, it doesn't matter what someone who would vote the same party no matter what anyway thinks, except to the extent this thinking becomes known to those who are willing to change their vote.)
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
1hr ago
Milo at least is saying there were zero hard-rs. He is very disappointed in these young men.
cjet79
1hr ago
So two adults coordinating a child porn ring is acceptable as long as it's done in private? Might need to walk back your literally nothing claim here.
I italicized "said" for a very specific reason. Plenty of things you can do that are unacceptable behavior. But the doing is the bad part not the saying. And ya you can larp being pedos in your own private time. As long as you don't do it why should I care?
I'm sorry, but if you're in such a world where you genuinely believe that every man jokes this way and anyone who doesn't is just a liar, it says a lot more about you and the people you hang out with in your dark matter world than about men in general.
This "world" I'm living in is also called TheMotte. Every other comment here is agreeing with me. I don't think it is literally every man, but it's close. Similar to the percentage of men that jerk off to porn. Sorry if that is also a revelation to you.
This type of defense is truly incredible just as a concept though. Like it's literally "Yes all men!" but as an endorsement, it comes off as a lack of imagination and theory of mind.
I don't think I'm the one lacking in theory of mind. Everyone here is telling you this is a common experience and your response has basically been 'no way!' how many people would you need to hear it from to believe us? I can find you clips of famous people talking about it, but unless you pre-commit to some threshold that would change your mind I'm sure you'll just find new reasons to dismiss that evidence.
quiet_NaN
1hr ago
telling racist jokes is a shibboleth and tribal signal.
So naturally, you would also support lefty people joking about Kirk getting shot, which is likewise a very powerful shibboleth and tribal signal. Or Palestinians wearing para-glider badges after Oct-7.
(Personally, I feel an intense dislike for anyone who makes jokes which trivialize or celebrate either the holocaust, the Kirk assassination, or the Hamas attacks, but that is probably because I am a liberal snowflake.)
magic9mushroom
If you're going to downvote me, and nobody's already voiced your objection, please reply and tell me
1hr ago
However, in its current form it does not actually have (although it might claim that it does) fascism's profoundly revolutionary ethos.
TBH, they've kinda already pulled off the revolution and successfully brainwashed the populace. There's no requirement in fascism to continually revamp society after you've turned it into a beehive, the way that SJ lionises activism as a lifestyle and has thus had massive scope creep and a degree of cargo-cult activism untethered from any plausible theory of change.
There's the goal of fighting outsiders, but, uh, they're pursuing that.
Agreed on the rest.
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
1hr ago
So we can safely assume that anyone who's ever been in the vicinity of an "eat the rich" joke in private is just itching for some cannibalistic Stalinism?
Will you be calling for AOC to be censured and removed from congress?
WhiningCoil
Ghost of Quokka's Future
1hr ago
Show me the modern nazi. Point him out.
The last real Nazi I'm aware of got a standing ovation in the Canadian Parliament.
quiet_NaN
1hr ago
I think nobody suggested that the they should be investigated for conspiracy to commit murder wrt the gas chamber chat. Everyone understands that they were not seriously suggesting that.
However, the attitude of a group about what is or is not appropriate to joke about is often indicative of deeper beliefs. And there is such a thing as "haha only serious" (think Eliezer announcing MIRI's 'Dying with dignity' strategy on a first of April). Joking gives you plausible deniability to hint at deeper beliefs which are outside the groups overton window to state outright. If A is into B, A might joke about A being into B. It puts the possibility into the open without creating common knowledge.
If you do not want to expand the overton window in a certain direction, you typically would not make jokes in that direction. For example, if a guy tends to joke about having taken 20 cocks in the ass during the weekend, that will do little to cement his reputation as straight.
Take rape jokes, which are deeply outside the overton window today. The reason is not that they directly lead to rape, but that they serve as a completely deniable signal for the opinion "rape is acceptable". Not everyone who tells rape jokes is into rape culture, obviously, some people just like dark humor, but they can certainly be used to transport the message "rape is not a big deal".
So X making jokes about gas chambers does not mean that X is a Nazi who has read Mein Kampf five times. But it indicates that X regards updating his group's beliefs towards him being a Nazi at least neutrally.
Personally, I would like to see people indicating that they have noticed the skulls of those who came before them, and strive to learn from their mistakes.
If a leftwing group chat made jokes about the Holodomor, Mao or Pol Pot, this would make me very much disinclined to trust them with any power, as they have clearly not learned from the past. If a right-wing group chat thinks that gas chamber jokes are fun and edgy, that does not necessarily mean they will build Auschwitz 2.0 at the earliest opportunity, but still it is sufficient for me not wanting them to have any power either.
ulyssessword
1hr ago
Nah. I can recognize the difference between organizing and directing people to assault others, and measuring environmental contaminants. The first one is closer to violence, if it was unclear to you.
As a practical issue, I often see "X is violence" paired with the (sometimes unstated) claim that "X can be resisted with violence". I'll admit to some motivated reasoning as my opposition to murdering parliamentarians bleeds through, but I still think there's a difference between being one step removed from fighting in a gang war and being a dozen steps removed from issuing a fine for corporate noncompliance.
Spookykou
1hr ago
Ever is a long time. Probably the single largest cohort of people here are disaffected liberals who would have been pretty seriously offended by those group chats 15-20 years ago, I certainly would have been.
hydroacetylene
1hr ago
Well yeah, you see how they're wrong, though?
Soteriologian
1hr ago
Richard Hanania, author of The Origins of Woke, suggests that these sorts of group chats are actually really common among the right wingers he interacted with. In fact his response to this seems to indicate agreement this chat is tame compared to many conversations he has seen.
It is. In a darknet chat, I once saw someone say
Your position can only be taken as substantive if one believes that there is some degree of separation between X and Y. No one can demonstrate this because no such separation exists. It's just young people. The only real difference is how the Overton Window is positioned.
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