Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.
- 142
- 1
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm thinking of biting the bullet on plastic surgery. I've always had chubby cheeks, without that much definition even when I was 10 kilos lighter, and buccal fat removal was something I'd been eyeing for years. I just didn't really have the money or the impetus to go for it back then.
I had an appointment with a reputable plastic surgeon today, and started off with a debate on whether he could exclude body dysmorphia in my case lol. I explained that in a psychiatric context, didn't any degree of dissatisfaction with one's physical appearance that involved attempts to modify it count? Why doesn't going to the gym or dieting to lose weight count? Besides, you'd need to have significant impairment in psychosocial functioning to warrant it. The DSM-5 includes, under BDD:*
While the roundness of one's face is a subjective thing, it's certainly not non-observable.
At any rate, he pretty successfully upsold me, explaining that I had hypertrophic masseters, which would make mere buccal fat removal not have very significant effects on the overall contour of the face. He also explained that instead of discarding buccal fat, as is the norm, he finds benefit from it being re-injected below the eyes and on the chin. To help tone down the masseters further, he suggested botox. I'm not particularly keen on semi-annual injections into my face, but I think it's worth a shot.
Anyone undergo anything similar?
*If it's unclear, he was taking the piss. I don't have body dysmorphia, it's a high bar to cross.
Aside from the transhumanist discussion (and, yknow), why the masseters? Isnt a wide jaw good for men, when it isnt just fat? Youre the one that learned anatomy, but I think thats the masseters we see here.
Besides adverse motivations, have you considered adverse psychological reactions? I at one point shaved off an about fingerlong beard all at once, and afterwards I felt like my head was ridiculously wide. It was quite a strange experience: I tried to check sizes and proprotions in just parts of the face and it would just... fail... and pop me back into the bigger picture where its ridiculously wide. I knew it was my face in the mirror, but it didnt feel like my face, and thats not a good experience. I resolved not to look into mirrors for a while to not feed that thought, and it was gone after a week or so. I dont entirely understand what happened, but this was from a fairly normal and minor change in appearance, and Id worry that a real plastic surgery would be worse and maybe stick around - fortunately nothing to do there. (If it matters, I definitely look better without the beard, and not just because the "haircut" it had was terrible.)
Please note that I'm not a plastic or cosmetic surgeon, nor did I pay as much attention during anatomy lessons as could be desired. The masseter can be attractive, but it's not as simple as larger is better. Bone structure, buccal fat, these all have significant effects. In the worst cases, but not mine, large masseters and buccal pads that don't go away despite weight loss can make someone appear chipmunk faced rather than like a gigachad. On the other end, a v-shaped or tapered jaw/cheek line is also a beauty standard for men, even if not as "masculine".
Psychological side effects? Honestly, I don't think they're that big a deal here. I'm not going to wake up looking like a completely different person, so I think my self-image would recover quickly. Your example of a shave is actually already in the right ballpark. Humans are usually quite resilient here. I would expect to see dysmorphic or dysphoric reactions in someone already quite mentally unwell (think severe body image issues, which didn't get better after the surgery). While I nurse dissatisfaction about my corporeal form, it's not BDD.
(I severely regret clean shaves, the last time I was coaxed into it by an ex, I was a very saddened Samson indeed).
I guess I disagree? I can see why youd think that, if youre going by an "objective" metric of similarity, but by that metric a 5 year old will always be more similar to another 5 year old than a 50 year old - and yet, we often recognise relatives on pictures where they were 5. For the sense of "do you look like the same person", things that naturally vary over time such as hair length are much less impactful than ones that require surgery.
I mean, I think Im mentally well. But the reason I got rid of the beard is that it still felt uncomfortably a year in, so it doesnt seem crazy to me that such visual changes would stick around as well.
I strongly disagree on empirical grounds. Google Photo's ML face identifier consistently tracks me going back all the way to the ripe age of 4, and doesn't think I'm another random child. This simply would not work if things were as you suggest!
I'd feel uncomfortable without one, so it's more likely that your own internalized ideal of your body image has you clean shaven, whereas mine is the opposite. People who opt for plastic surgery are far more likely to have BDD, but a person who doesn't will very likely come out of it with no hangups if it wasn't a botch job.
I agree that an AI can track the "same person" thing just fine if its trained that way. But if you understand that metric, then why do you think shaving is a similar size change to surgery? Or did you already have some kind of plastic surgery that it saw through?
No, Im very sure the discomfort is a tactile thing. Thats certainly how it seems to me, and in terms of the timeline, it was only quite a bit later, looking at photos, that I thought it had looked stupid. If Id thought that ahead of time I just wouldnt have grown it out. Again, said beard got to over 5cm, because I hoped it would feel more like headhair once long enough. Ive had short beards since, and the difference between comfortable and uncomfortable lengths is not particularly visible.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
What did the surgeon say the downsides would be? My understanding is that plastic surgeons had collectively cooled on it, due to problems like proximity to nerves and difficulty in achieving symmetry (especially if done under local anesthesia), in addition to possible long term appearance problems or unrealistic expectations about short term appearances.
He most warned about inadequate results requiring followup, and a (short) post-op recovery period. Also advised me not to rush into things, which is made moot by the fact that I won't be back home for another 6 months. He did check my expectations by explaining that just BFR wouldn't achieve the desires I was seeking.
My (basic) research into complication rates was heartening, with <1% neurological complication rates, particularly facial nerve injury. Even then, most of the time it's transient. There just isn't that much critical infrastructure in the typical site of insertion.
Asymmetry is always a concern, but be suggested 2ml of fat per cheek to start with, which is on the low end.
In the UK, I'd expect a great deal more boilerplate about potential risks, but that's not as common in India, and he might have felt that as a fellow medical professional, I would know of the side effects .
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Personal belief: The things you select for in a partner are going to end up being the things you get selected on.
How much do you select for attractiveness? If the answer is a lot then any improvements you can make are probably going to be worth it. If the answer is something like "it matters but I care more about personality, compatibility, and intelligence" then I don't think it will be worth it to you and may be actively harmful.
Think of where you'd compromise on a perfect partner, would you want them a little dumber, a little uglier, a little less sexual, a little meaner? You will also get some of that compromise, because you won't be perfect for them. What does a woman's willingness to compromise on a trait say about them? A woman willing to compromise on attractiveness a bit might care more about who you are. The part of you she cares about might vary, money, intelligence, humor, etc. But it's not necessarily a bad sign.
Some things to think about, because finding a partner isn't always a straightforward "be better in every category".
I have a pretty high floor on the amount of intelligence, beauty and ideally wit I want in a long-term partner. I'd say that my ex before my last one was the closest to marriage material, barring what I strongly suspect is undiagnosed BPD. There's such a thing as too crazy to handle, no matter how hot.
Of course, these are, to an extent, fungible. But I still have strict floors. Too dumb but hot? Okay for a fling, but I'm not risking my kids coming out with my beauty and her brains. As I humbly explained in another comment, I had a hot model with a loaded family begging me to stay back in India and marry her. She was, unfortunately, very dumb. I could have taken advantage of her by promising marriage and then screwing around like her exes did, but I have some personal ethics.
Similarly, I'd love my partner to be intelligent, more than me? Even better. Helps the kids and makes them more engaging. I'd probably not go for someone brilliant but horrendous, being ugly is a severe disadvantage for future kids.
I can accept tradeoffs on any of those axes. I don't feel like any of my partners to date had to settle. While I'm not outright handsome, I at least look decent enough that it's not an outright detriment, just neutral. Unfortunately, the universe is unfair, and there are other men who are both smart and handsome to compete with.
I'd expect the sum of everything other than my looks to still be decent, but they certainly haven't dated me for my ravishing appearance. I do agree that it's better to have them attracted to me for my personality or wit, but eh, the real world is messy.
Looks, intelligence, wit and mentally healthy. Pick 3 ?
If I had to choose, I'd sacrifice wit. I'm funny enough for 2, and I can always laugh at my own jokes.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
When I search for images of "buccal fat removal men before and after" I get pictures that don't differ much at all, similar to "face during a bulk vs face during a cut".
On the one hand, this means you are unlikely to end up looking like Skeletor or Erin Moriarty. On the other hand, is it worth the expense?
I'd also add that this kind of surgery flags you as super vain to most western women. If its not making a huge difference it might be signaling you don't want to take on.
More options
Context Copy link
It's not that expensive, perks of opting for this while visiting India. I don't have an exact quote, but even accounting for the expense of the best hospital around (no ex employee discount, sadly), I doubt it will cross 4k USD. Optimistically, less than 1k USD. I'll know a better figure once I go to the billing desk, I was too lazy to queue today. Just the buccal fat removal would be around 4k USD in the States.
There are different degrees of fat removal. My surgeon suggested 2ml both sides, which is a conservative approach. So you can go from anywhere from subtle to gaunt.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Last week I went to a followup on my stitches that the doctor who stitched me up had suggested I schedule with their plastic surgery practice. She didn't actually tell me I needed anything beyond using silicon scar tape at night, which I had already heard through the grapevine, and at any rate I'm pretty happy with how the scar is healing up, and anyway I'm married. But my wife has been highly amused, because she can now say that I went to a plastic surgeon before she did.
In general, my wife went off right now when I told her this Q, you want to be doing a lot of stuff before you start plastic surgery. Buccal fat removal in particular is really risky because you can't get it back, so if you take it out now, and your face continues to slim out as is typical with aging, you might be looking like skeletor in another ten years. ((Mrs. FiveHour: Buccal fat is the most evil procedure, alongside maybe lip filler.)) Then you get filler to fix that, filler has all kinds of problems with fading or migrating, so you have to fix that, and now you're on the plastic-surgery-overcorrection cycle. There are a lot of other options in the aesthetic treatment range to attempt first.
Have you ever heard of or tried microcurrent devices like the Ziip? It's a microcurrent device that basically electrocutes your facial muscles. The designers claim all kinds of benefits from facial contouring to clearing up skin. My wife has one, I've played around with it, but I've never been disciplined enough or cared enough to keep up with it for months. When I've used it on the "contouring" setting it does get some of that sharper look I think you're going for, and it's relatively cheap and very low risk compared to other choices you have. I know there are also salons or spas or whatever that offer a higher-end version of the home product in microcurrent facials, which you could try without committing to purchasing one and using it all the time. Rescue Spa is the top end, but I don't think they're overseas.
My wife recommends botox, it is cheap and low risk. Find a reputable provider and get very little. Start small, most women do way too much which leads to the paralyzed look. What's nice is it just goes away if you use the right amount. My wife gets them biannually, it's no big deal, small amounts in the forehead. It'll be ten years before it approaches the cost of a real surgical procedure. Let it fade off completely between shots.
Also possibly PRP injections below the eyes are something to look into, according to Mrs. FiveHour.
In general there's nothing wrong with trying to look better, and there are ways to do it, but especially as a man you absolutely must avoid the appearance of having had plastic surgery. For women there is at least a little leeway, in that obvious plastic surgery at least often has the effect of making her look slutty and sexually available, so it's not all bad. For men, visible plastic surgery is pretty much the worst thing possible, making a man look vain, effeminate, faggy, untrustworthy, and foolish. So start light and focus on the long game.
I looked into PRP, and it's worse than I thought. It has a decent evidence base and moderate efficacy for orthopedic procedures, such as knee issues and rotator cuff repairs. For cosmetic purposes? A mire of tiny, biased/sponsored studies and a lot of nulls.
The face has a lot of blood circulation. From first principles alone, I doubt just putting more of it back in would help.
More options
Context Copy link
I'm aware of the risks, but they seem small and acceptable to me. My surgeon has recommended 2ml of fat removed per cheek, which is AFAIK, a very conservative value. I've probably got a decade or more before my cheeks shrink by themselves, and looking at older family members, it's not very noticeable. I think the risk of becoming gaunt is manageable.
I'll have to look into it, but my gut feeling is that it's not reliable. I can't see an obvious MOA from merely passing current through the face muscles!
Good advice, send her my thanks. I believe masseter botox doesn't have much impact on facial expressions or wrinkles, the biggest side effect is usually decreased chewing strength and fatigue, and that usually wears off quick.
Fillers are okay as a temporary solutions, but autologous fat grafts, especially from the buccal area, tend to be far more lasting. I'm a little skeptical of PRP as a therapy tbh. Is she recommending it for enhancing the upper cheek? I don't really have baggy eyes, or at least I don't care about them.
I see a dozen woman a day on the streets who I can tell have had work done. I struggle to name a single non-celebrity man. Most men opt for hair transplants as their foray into cosmetic surgery. The BFR and masseter botox don't leave any visible scars, and barring the risk of lopsidedness (unlikely with a skilled surgeon), I really doubt anyone could tell. They'd probably think I've lost weight and worked out, which to be fair, I'm doing alongside the procedure. I'm interested in a rhinoplasty, which would be harder to explain away, but I doubt anyone would particularly care.
Yes, its unusual for regular people in most of the west. Are you sure you want to be vain enough to buck the trend?
Probably? I don't particularly care if people think I'm vain.
Plastic surgery is like toupees, you only notice the bad ones. I'm not trying to become a Bogdanoff or a Bryan Johnson.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I honestly think self esteem is a choice. Who cares what other people think? Only you can decide to feel inferior. As a man, who you are, what you do, and thirdly what you believe matters more. If you already have high educational attainment and social status, why do you care about how others perceive you? Seems like a hedonistic treadmill effect. Maybe this is the key to your everlasting happiness, but I doubt it.
In a vacuum? Who gives a shit?
When I'm trying to attract women, and looking to settle down and marry before the decade is out? Then what other people think of you matters.
While it's polite to underplay how much of a difference being attractive makes in real life, that's somewhere between cope and an attempt to make people feel better about themselves. I have a handsome younger brother. I'm facially average, but thankfully I'm tall. Even if love him, I can't help but feel a twinge of jealousy at how trivially he could have just about any woman he wants. When it turned out that he's borderline asexual, all I could do is groan at the waste. Some people need to hustle for a meal, others are just taking up space at a buffet table and not even trying the appetizers.
I think my self-esteem is at a reasonable place. I've got plenty to be proud about. Yet self-esteem is far from the only thing that matters. Someone with schizophrenia, bipolar during mania, or other personality disorders, might well have great self-esteem while their life falls apart.
I'm not doing this to be ensure everlasting happiness. I'm doing this to be more attractive, primarily for the purposes of being more appealing to the opposite sex. That bit is durable, even if my happy afterglow fades.
I think people are being a little hard on this question. While it's true that self confidence and lowering the importance of what people think of you is important, a $1-4k investment to be more attractive is appealing.
Very rarely do we get to trade money for this. You have to go to the gym and work hard, eat like a rabbit, study for hours, and master the art of conversation over a lifetime to "be more attractive". Just because other men don't take the shortcut doesn't mean you can't.
I'd echo other concerns about how it would look long term far more than "perceived vanity".
Thank you. Leaving aside understandable differences in risk tolerance, some people really hate the idea of "shortcuts". Semaglutide is treated like a ticking time bomb, because surely things can't be that simple can it? The universe doesn't care, good things can and do happen.
Same with plastic surgery. If it works, it works and nobody knows anything except that you're looking better and younger. $ for results, but it's not like going to the gym doesn't cost time, money and have risks. I'm obviously concerned about cutting into my face, but it seems like a good trade off. I'm doing everything, including working out.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's your right to decide whether you do this thing or not. But this is a terrible reason because it just isn't true. Lots and lots of people (the vast majority, in fact) attract a mate without resorting to cosmetic surgery. You, yourself, have said you've had reasonable success with women. In other words, this sort of thing is not needed. Getting some face fat removed from you is simply not going to matter to your ability to get married before the decade is out.
I have very high standards for the quality of partner I would marry and entrust to give half their genes to our kids. By virtue of being more attractive, I have a wider pool to work with, and can winnow them with more care. To the extent that hot, smart and successful women demand the same in their partners, I can only work towards making myself better at them all. I wouldn't want to marry a bimbo, what if the kids come out with my looks and her brains?
In other words, I can pretty easily find someone to marry. I could do it tomorrow, my family has had feelers put out by Indian families, here and in the UK, who would put a ring on it. Even by dint of my own efforts, I think about 20% of the women I dated over 3 months (before going steady with one) wanted to marry me, and were serious about it. One of them was a very hot, rich professional model, but she was dumb as rocks. She begged me to stay back in India and marry her. I turned that down. I could probably have taken advantage of her, screwed her and fled like her exes did, but I try not to be an asshole.
I hope that makes my point clear. Investing in my appearance (and I've worked on everything else) by getting work done and working out increases my appeal on the dating market - - - > increases pool of women to sleep with/marry - - - > increases the odds of finding the One. I'm not worried about getting married, that's trivial, I want to marry someone who makes me feel great about that choice.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You're the transhumanist; off you go to self-modify at once!
I mean, my advice would be to just live with your face, which probably isn't that bad to begin with, but I don't suppose you're the target audience for that.
I was considering that I'd go on a minor rant about transhumanism and better living through medicine in my original post, but I'd risk becoming a walking stereotype or one-trick pony haha. Evidently, it wasn't even necessary with my reputation.
My facial features are average. When I'm well groomed and dressed up, I'd dare call myself a 7/10 on a genuine gaussian curve, i.e 70th percentile for Indian men. If I'm not trying? 5-6/10. I have other appealing characteristics, but I only look decent enough for it to not sway the scales either way, positively or negatively.
This is adequate. It's not ideal. My younger brother lucked out on the genetic lottery, and could probably work as a model. I've seen the very obvious differences in how women act around him, and think "Lord, I've seen what you've done for others, and want that for myself."
I could probably go through the rest of my life without plastic surgery, and do fine. I'd have to work out harder, lose more weight, but there's only so much that can do. Yet, I think this is an intervention with positive expected value, if I can bump myself up ten percentile points for a few thousand USD, I struggle to think of anything better. The risks, while present, aren't that bad.
In a frenzy of self-improvement, I'm hitting the gym like it owes me money, and ordered some semaglutide to boot. My transhumanism isn't lip service, I put my money where my mouth and surrounding fat is.
Are you only competing with other indian men? I thought you were in the UK for some reason.
Indian men are somewhat disadvantaged in that regard, as our facial features don't always meet Western standards. You can probably knock a point or another half off by UK standards.
Indian ones are what I'm best calibrated to, and at the time of writing, I'm on holiday back home.
More options
Context Copy link
Some would say that comparing people of different races in terms of attractiveness is like comparing apples and oranges in terms of taste.
The thing is, you can compare apples and oranges. And we have objective data from places like OkCupid (while it was cool) and just general subjective observations of vibes.
Indian men, while not at the absolute bottom of the totem pole, are disadvantaged. Our ideals of beauty align well with the West, barring the matter of tans, but we're further from that ideal. Not to mention the casual negativity around Indian men dating there. I say this with chagrin, but it's true.
There's definitely an averseness towards the median Indian. I mean the demeanor of the average Indian immigrant: Kumail Nanjiani in Silicon Valley, but additionally unkempt, ponchy and flaunting a chicken neck. In my experience, Indians immigrants are the least fit and worst dressed of any ethnic group. OKCupid was primarily rating this subset. No wonder they were rated terribly.
How Indian do you look ? Often, Indians can blend into other ethnicities with demeanor, accent & fashion changes. Gets you past a person's initial mental block.
As long as Indians have their basics out of wack, it's pointless to discuss their attractiveness. Kumail's transformation is a good example, if slightly exaggerated. I can give other examples. Women are obsessed with Dev Patel and Sendhil Ramamurthy[hot]/[not]. Both look like average Indian dudes in their less-handsome roles. Many Indians are blessed with thick hair, beards and eye brows. Play to those advantages and you'll get +2 boost.
The woke are right about one thing : representation. Women want to date the man of their dreams, but the dreams are manufactured via media. With Indian men getting fresh representation in sexy-man roles, there now are Indian men who women pine for. It's on you to fit into those molds. Additionally, it helps that Brown has become a generic identity. If you don't want to be Indian, you can be brown.
4chan/twitter hate for Indians can be safely ignored. A woman who goes swimming in those sewers is probably too nuclear for a simple man any way. There are exceptions ofc, but as football fans like saying, "[too much ball knowledge means too much ball knowledge].
Very. The closest I can get to passing myself off as anything else would that clip from Harold and Kumar where they try to hail a police officer as a fellow Indian, and he tells them he's actually Hispanic.
I don't, however, sound Indian at all.
I suppose if I got light work done, worked out for a while, I could look passably close to the "hot" version of Ramamurthy. If I lost 7-8 kilos and just was a tad bit more fit, I'd probably manage the "not" without issue. I'm not becoming a twink like Dev Patel without a time machine and different spermatozoa.
I can attest that being sufficiently handsome can make up for any ethnicity, my handsome best friend didn't have any issues at all in the UK or the States.
Can't say I particularly care what 4chan thinks. Don't recall every shitting on a street myself. This isn't a big concern for me, though I'm sure more insecure and neurotic Indians might suffer. I've never been treated in an uncivil manner in reality by virtue of my race
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'd consider getting a second opinion to make sure there isn't some 'one and done' permanent surgery available rather than this SaaS (Surgery as a Service) ongoing maintenance payment.
Botox just works that way. I'm not sure I'd consider it a surgery in the first place. The others should, at least in ideal circumstances, be one and done. While I'm far from a plastic surgeon, I think his points were reasonable.
I came out of it with a relatively positive impression of the surgeon, he seemed quite prudent and even suggested that I take time to think this through. Unfortunately, I'm flying back to the UK soon, and it's going to cost me an order of magnitude more. For what it's worth, his credentials are impeccable, so I'd struggle to find someone else in the time frame I'm working under.
All good points. Why not give it a go then? If its low risk (you've done a credential check) and affordable you can give it a trial and see if you like the results.
I probably will. It's certainly much cheaper in India versus what it would be in the UK. The buccal fat removal is permanent (without fillers or transplants to reverse it), but I can always forego the botox in the future.
Of course you might end up looking weird. I'm guessing these places have pics of their previous work? A former colleague had a vanity-driven surgery to suck fat out of his baggy (in his mind) eyelids. But because he has serious sleep issues and his genius response to this was just to begin taking Ambien, he looks now like a guy with two black eyes about a week into healing. This is post-surgery.
Don't mind me, though, I'm generally adamantly against cosmetic surgery to begin with.
He's just about as credentialed as one can desire for a plastic surgeon, I believe he trained at Harvard. He also showed me several cases with before and after photos, and I was impressed by the results. Of course, they don't show off the botch jobs..
Cosmetic procedures vary in their risk, buccal fat removal is safe as it goes, with a pooled risk of complications of around 1-3%. That covers both minor and major issues. I'm not as up to speed on the reimplantation of the fat or the botox, but from first principles, they're probably not any worse. All the incisions are inside the mouth, which means no visible scars. Not much bleeding, so the risk of haematomas or infection are rather minor. That's ignoring the risk of failure or non-ideal results. Buccal fat naturally goes away with age, so if overdone, can leave you with sagging cheeks or jowls. I can consider that a problem for another few decades down the line, it can be fixed.
At the end of the day, it's up to one's personal risk appetite and how content they are with their appearance.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link