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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   3924 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for May 23, 2025

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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In spite of Ireland's deserved reputation as an earnestly anti-Zionist state, I learned today that there's a park in Dublin named after Chaim Herzog, who was born in Belfast but grew up in Dublin. And it's in Rathgar, one of Dublin's most affluent neighbourhoods, whose residents could reasonably be assumed to be staunchly pro-Palestinian.

Upon learning this, my first thought was "huh, surprised there hasn't been a campaign to have it renamed". One Google later...

Things that happened to me this week.

Confirmation bias in rural Germany.

Incident 1: The pharmacy.

Following some advice from my physician, I went to the pharmacy to discuss allergy medication and possibly buy some. The clerk was a muslim woman, and spoke bad enough German that I ended up backing out of the store rather than risk relying on her contradictory information. The whole conversation would have been better off conducted in Italian or Latin or some other language I simply do not speak, using hand and feet, rather than under the pretense that broken half-German does anyone any good.

Incident 2: The gas station.

At the local gas station, I parked at the pump, exited the car, and was immediatelly welcomed by an overgregarious foreigner (though his German beat that of the pharmacist!) who addressed me as his brother and wished my family good health. I gave him a polite enough "Hello" and went on to pump gas. He pivoted to begging for two liters of Diesel. I gave him a "No." with baseline politeness and no room for argument. He went on to accost positively every customer at the place, variably commenting on their families or the beauty of their cars. Normally I just leave beggars alone, the same way I leave alone cats and pigeons, but in this case I went to the cashier, paid, and notified them of the goings on, following which they sent out the manager to shoo the beggar away.

Incident 3: The national public radio station.

Tuning in to one of our national public broadcasting stations on the car radio, and expecting yet another sermon on carbon emissions, I was greeted by yet another sermon on carbon emissions.

Incident 4: The regional public radio station.

Tuning instead to a local (Well, not really. Actually a Bavarian from a few miles further east) station, and expecting news on soccer and local politics, I received a sermon about insufficient representation of women in local politics.

Incident 5: Unknown street.

Arriving in an unknown larger town on an errand, I failed to find my destination on a first attempt. I spotted an elderly man with a toothbrush moustache, and thinking him either a neo-nazi, an autist or a joker, and in any case someone who would respond favorably to attention, I greeted him to ask for directions. He gave me a "not understand" in reply. When in Atomized Globalized Urban Place, do as Atomized Globalized Urban People do, and so I just got out my phone and checked google maps instead.

Usually there's more social cohesion in rural areas. Your anecdotes aren't a good sign.

You Have One Missed Message

I just had the queerest thing happen to me. The chain of causality runs long, serpentine but taut, and sometimes arcs towards serendipity.

A long time ago, my best friend at the time had/didn't have a thing with this girl in law school. He says they were dating, she says they were just friends. I don't care either way.

After they fell out, the last conversation I had with her was her asking me how many modafinil tablets it took to get high. I cursed myself for mentioning it, and quite truthfully said she could have the entire pack if she wanted. She wouldn't get high, except from the ensuing insomnia and sleep deprivation. It's a funny drug, it'll give you euphoria the very first time you try it and never again. She'd already sampled it once and felt the rush. She wouldn't take me at my word, argued about it and called me a kill-joy, and we fell out of touch.

Fast forward half a dozen years. This was about a year back, when I'd just found out I had matched into psych in the UK, and was suitably siked out. I was on a dating app, when I see this very familiar looking chick. Right swipe, match. Same lady, but she made it clear she wasn't looking to date but was down to hangout, and lived just down the road from me.

While slightly disappointed, I think it's entirely possible to have platonic relationships with the other sex, and we began catching up for tea and other calming substances after work. We got pretty close, which was the excuse I needed to try and beat some sense into her, or at least the desire to see a legitimate shrink ASAP. Girl had issues, and some pretty bad trauma.

Eventually, she invited me to her birthday, which was an unusual event. I'd never seen a burning joint substituting for a candle, though that makes age easier to hide I guess?

While I was pleasantly inebriated, I was taken aside by our hostess and informed that my medical talents were needed. Her best friend, who made excellent THC cup cakes, was somewhere in the overlapping region of the Venn diagram between fucking drunk, fucking high, and emotionally screwed up. She was worried, and wanted me to keep watch.

Well, I was a bit miffed at being kicked out of the life of the party, but I did my duty. Poor girl took the opportunity to vent, she had a lot on her mind, and it persisted despite everything trying to clear it. I did a pretty decent job of consoling her, and ensuring her airway wasn't at risk during the dips. (I'm very good at being there for people, the same skills transfer between drunk-sitting and dementia patients) Eventually, I was relieved, and thought no more about it.

Cue another year passing in a flash. I'd bungled an initial attempt to migrate my old WhatsApp account and number, and had given up and just made a new one. The old one languished on an even older phone. I got back home, my brother, always a tech nerd, wanted to appropriate said phone. I talked him down into just putting it on charge, after ages.

When I checked back, I saw a message form lawyer chick that had languished on a single tick for months. It sounded urgent.

I called her up, and to my surprise, the reason behind the phone call was as follows:

Her best friend, from the party, had been hanging out with a close friend of her own. Circumstances unknown prompted Best Friend to, of all things, open up my insta account or other social media, and show her my account. She said she liked me, and asked her to acquire my number.

My Lawyer Friend, well, she was a good winglady. She explained that I was working in the UK, and might have a girlfriend. She heard a quick discussion on the other end, and heard from Best Friend that this wasn't an issue. She went on to do her due diligence, and asked if the girl was pretty. Pretty pretty!

That's when she'd texted me, but had gone unread for ages. She asked me if I was single rn, and still interested? Turns out I was single, having just had a pretty amicable breakup, and fuck it, I'm on vacation with little to do.

I had very little in the way of actual aspirations here. Women are notoriously unreliable when it comes to gauging reporting the attractiveness of their friends or sex. If I had a dollar for every mid girl getting gassed up on Instagram, I'd own it. This was just after I went on a spirited defense of my intent to get plastic surgery done, so one can imagine my suspicions.

With my assent, and instructions to hand out my number to future callers (who were cute girls) without question, I laid back and waited. Sure enough, a few hours later, I got a text from an unknown number. It was her. She went ahead and introduced herself, revealing that she had an unusual name. While initial introductions and my initiation of flirtation commenced, I began surreptitiously scoping her out on Instagram. Only fair, after what she and her buddy had done. Turns out I only knew her first name, and that narrowed it down to about 15 women.

12/15 of them were pretty, which piqued my interest. That's an insane hit rate, I began to slightly get my hopes up.

She asked me about my whereabouts. I quite truthfully explained I was only back in India for 2 weeks, of which one had mostly elapsed. This was met by an oh. And a few minutes of silence. I was entirely expecting it to be a deal breaker.

To my surprise, she went ahead with the conversation. It got pretty late, we texted past midnight, and I decided that I'd done enough of what the kids call "rizzing" and asked her out for coffee. She exclaimed at my forwardness, but said yes.

I had a long day, with a lot of traveling, but I made it back home in time to have a quick shower, and change into decent clothes. We'd planned a café in advance, and I got there bang on time.

And waited.

She texted me saying that she would be 10 minutes late. Never one to let an opportunity go, I told her that I'd let 10 minutes pass, and then assume the prettiest girl around was her and go ahead and join them.

She was twenty minutes late, rushing in, and I'm glad that I had hadn't taken that literally, because she was gorgeous.

I'd seen a few pretty women walk in, and got my hopes up each time it was her, only to be disappointed. She kicked them all to the curb.

It was a fun date. She turned out to be a lawyer, I explained that I was a very well-behaved guy who had had no run-ins with the law. We spoke, went out for a smoke, and spoke some more till the staff politely informed us that it was closing time at around 10.30 pm.

I had to ask what piqued her interest in the first place. I've had my share of luck with the ladies, a handful had slid into DMs, but this was all new. She told me that she'd had a breakup a while back, and had been disappointed with the men around. She'd vented to her best friend, and said best friend had decided to dig up my insta while exclaiming that I was a gentleman who'd been nothing but kind to her when she was in a bad place. This, plus a flattering assortment of photos, made her bite the bullet and ask for my contact details.

I was a tad bit disappointed when she told me, pretty quickly into the date, that she wasn't looking for anything serious or long-term. She wasn't a big fan of the institution of holy matrimony, but then again she's a lawyer. She looked at me expectantly for a reply, and I quite truthfully told her I'd come here with few expectations and an open mind. This was the right answer, but I had to suppress a wave of sadness. She's just my type. She's fun to talk to, when all I knew of her was just a blank profile picture and a name. She's pretty, and laid-back, and..

She told me I was handsome, and asked me if I worked out. I said I'd just restarted after ages, that shirt must have been flattering. She called me a gentleman, because I'd held doors open for her, showed up on time, and picked out a spot for our date. I told her that I was very grateful for the really low quality of the male species in these parts, because it took me just the bare minimum of courtesy to stand out. She laughed, and smiled at me in a way that made my heart ache.

I told her I was a hopeless romantic, only somewhat beaten straight by the baseball bat of life. She told me the same. She asked me when I'd be back in town again. I told her that my allotment of annual leave would refresh in August (why is it called annual if it works on a semi-annual basis?), and that I was thinking about coming back pretty soon right after. This was half a lie. I was actually planning on November or December, when my homesickness reached zenith and Scotland's human habitability reached its nadir. Looking at her, I felt like I need to be back earlier.

I'm eliding a lot of detail here, which is omitted to avoid boring you, the reader. Imagine a lot of shameless flattery, terrible puns, and debates about AI. At one point, she claimed that everyone must have heard of ElevenLabs when I'd told her I was impressed by the fact she knew of it. To prove my point, I asked the dude at the table next to me if he had, to frank confusion. 1-0. Maybe I'll write a version of this essay for myself, and posterity's sake. This will likely end in heartbreak, life has just taken us different places. Yet life is short, and there's a breeze about this summer evening.

We'd left planning a second date tomorrow. I just confirmed it. Wish me luck.

Indian women are beautiful. Good luck.

Edit: the second-most controversial comment I've posted this week lol

India is part of the global Honorary Latino Belt? How could it be otherwise haha?

Thank you!

Good luck; you'll need it. Not because of anything to do with you, but because I fear you are in an extremely vulnerable position at this point ("she's gorgeous"/"she's not interested in anything serious"). Probably more to say but here's my stop.

Thank you. Worst case is I walk out this with a slightly broken heart. That's also the median and modal case, so I'm as prepared as one can be, intellectually if not emotionally.

I really like her so far, and only wish circumstances might have been different. I can't drop my career goals for her sake, but I'm open to other compromises.

Oddly, in the main thread of this I cannot see my reply to you nor your reply to me.

Huh. I double checked by going to the main thread, and I can see this fine? You sure about this? I would have thought accidental mod action, but I don't see any evidence so it might be a glitch.

Ah, nevermind. I was looking at the other thread. Did you xpost this on purpose?

Initially an accident while I was copying and pasting, then I thought fuck it, it's there now.

I think I recall either a bug report on github, or Zorba mentioning a glitch like this in the comments here. I might have even taken a look at solving it, but with no clear way to reproduce the issue, I think I'd rather do something more enjoyable, like repeatedly slamming my balls with a hammer.

Just because I was reminded by the comment in the main thread, do pierced septums, tongues, and gauges give anyone the major ick? Nose studs? Fine. Belly button piercings? A little wierd but fine. Any non-face tattoo? Fine. But hoooooly crap does anything more than a tiny septum piercing make me uncomfortable. Not just like, “oh that’s weird” but almost I find it physically repulsive that larger ones I find it hard to even look. Ear gauges also, anything bigger than a button. Tongue piercings in any size. Is this just a human “looks like that would hurt” reaction, or is there some other component maybe? Curious if others feel the same but are more/less vocal about it, or if it’s just a personal issue.

I was raised as conservative Christian (how conservative? Useless question, too relative) but in liberal Oregon, if relevant, so at least it’s not purely a lack of exposure thing.

Yes, they're off-putting. The septum makes me think of leading around a cow on my dad's farm, tongues seem very unsanitary and it fucks with their speech, and gauges (particularly very large ones) are super gross when the jewelry isn't in.

I don't mind most piercings as long as the jewelry is cute/pretty but don't like ear gauges or septum rings of any kind (the first just looks like those tribesmen that stretch their lip to silly amounts an the second reminds me of a bull, which is just funny on a 90 lb girl. I don't like any tattoos.

I tend to feel the odd one out in these discussions, since tattoos (at least in standard locations, in standard amounts, with standard designs) have never bothered me, even though I don't have any. I've considered it at times but it always then seems like a thing where there's just better personal uses for my money. My wife has a couple and I mostly tend to forget they even exist unless a discussion like this specifically reminds me of them. Excessive piercing is another matter, though.

Getting tattooed in a big way seems to be a Millennial thing, I don't see as many tattoos in younger generations, though of course it also takes time and money to get a major collection of tattoos going.

I hate piercings past one in each ear (for females) and any sort of tattoo unless it's some branding you intentionally got with your unit/ship because you experienced hell in some faraway jungle/rice paddy/desert.

I used to wonder, as a boy, what would be the thing that separated me, finally, from youth--what would finally be the issue(s) that made me have old man opinions. For my dad I remember he was disgusted that anyone of my generation and peer group would have the depravity to smoke marijuana. That seemed to me pretty regressive back when I was a teenager (though I didn't drink or smoke anything until over 21.)

I think I accepted homosexuality as just one of those things early on (though I am often confused by activist's insistence both that homosexuality is biological but also that to explore the biology of it is fascist and evil.) I hit a wall at transvestism but there was a time when my doubts were mainstream. Then transgender became (seemingly) a massive movement and any doubts about its authenticity or normalcy was shunned as -phobic and evil. What I had always considered normal became marginalized as "cis." People online started replying "Ok boomer" to me, though I am of GenX. Dennis Rodman back in the day seemed edgy and bizarre, but then you knew he had his demons and felt he was on the edge anyway. But then he was fawned on by Madonna (still barely relevant then) and everyone sort of just accepted his appearance. What had been transgressive became pop cool. Years later on screen you saw Lisbeth Salander sitting in the chair, warned that her new tattoo would hurt, and she just shrugs. But the subtext (emotionally damaged individual) was there. Then, tattoos eventually everywhere--not on the ripped, or lithe, or edgy attractive Swedish girl, but on the obese, on the calves of a guy in a print t-shirt and cargo pants at the 7-11--very quickly began to chafe. Piercings in the nose of otherwise attractive girls (or who would be attractive assuming they washed their hair and maybe did something more to prepare their appearance than a 12 year old boy) immediately revolted me.

In Japan, tattoos are still rare-ish (though a guy on my morning commute appears to have full leg tats, and because he's middle aged I assume he's involved heavily in the Yakuza.) But you do see them in the young who've opted out of traditional jobs. And in nightlife workers (bartenders, DJs, low-tier girl's bar girls) you also see weird piercings. But like everything in Japan these are the uniforms of their milieu. Like the artist wearing a beret or the new mom cutting her hair short or the salaryman and his suit. There's an order to it.

I can't see the order in the US (and thus it's harder for me to steelman). It's still too much my own culture.

I am reminded of this recent comment by @Sloot in he which he wondered (possibly ironically) whether eventually having no tattoos will become the edgy choice.

I'm not a fan of piercings. My last girlfriend got one, a more traditional Indian nose ring rather than a septum piercing, and was miffed when I explained that I was having intrusive thoughts about tugging on it with a string like she was an ox.

For most piercings barring those on the ear, they're an obvious and intentional act of rebellion. Half the time, it's a fuck you to conventional beauty standards, and the fact that it makes them less attractive is the point. I presume the rest are really set on it for some reason, or are mislead into thinking it's a good idea. I'm being generous in this assessment.

I'm a rather liberal and libertarian atheist from a Hindu family, with schooling at an explicitly religious Protestant (Anglican?) school. Just don't like 'em.

Yeah, can't say I've ever met someone whose appearance was improved by a septum piercing or gauge. At best they're attractive in spite of said piercing.

Man everyone down on nose studs and belly button piercings is intense. I think both are absurdly attractive, even if very slut-signaled.

The rest of it I could do without

I think people are getting distracted by considerations of class and aesthetics but I don't think it's purely those factors as you said that you're okay with little nose studs and non-face tattoos. I don't like jewellery, piercings or tattoos but I don't have that visceral reaction you're describing.

Maybe it's along the lines of being bad with the sight of blood. Most people would flinch if they saw someone with a rusty bit of metal sticking through their hand, so seeing an eye-catching and sizeable piece of foreign matter penetrating a facial feature might be triggering the same reaction even if it's intentional and meant to look "good". Or maybe it's a bit more of a body horror thing where you're uncomfortably aware of the chance of the piercing catching on something and causing a horrible accident. I get quite uncomfortable when I watch power tool videos on YouTube where the people are carelessly changing over blades without disconnecting the power. I know it's not going to happen because the video was uploaded without a bait title and thumbnail, but it's unsettling nonetheless.

Or maybe it's a bit more of a body horror thing where you're uncomfortably aware of the chance of the piercing catching on something and causing a horrible accident.

Yes. I get visions of something tugging on them really hard. I dont like tattoos either, but those arent uncomfortable to look at.

All facial jewelry is hideous on pale people. Maybe simple earrings, and a necklace hung low on the chest. Anything else washes white people out completely. This is why traditional white fashion didn't include nose rings; while traditional Indian and African cultures often do. The whole universe of gaudy jewelery belongs properly to the dark skinned on an aesthetic as well as a cultural level.

The problem with this claim is that the palest Indians are paler than many Europeans, and it's the North Indians (usually paler) that wear the most jewelry.

/images/17481918087153656.webp

Indians just love gaudy shit, it's in their memeplex. (no offence, I just don't get their obsession with intricate and loud clothes/jewelry compositions)

I don't think she's paler than your average European north of the Alps so I'm not sure what point you're making, and anyway her dark eyes and hair make her appearance higher contrast.

My point is simply that there are a lot of Europeans with similar (or darker) skin tones and dark hair who don't have traditions of extensive facial jewelry. In other words, skin color doesn't seem to play a causal role, and not all cultures agree that facial jewelry looks bad on pale people, and not all pale cultures abstain from facial jewelry.

That looks like AI to me.

Reverse image search turned up this a photo of the same woman in the same getup, timestamped 2017.

I don't think there's anything AI looking about this photo, but it's interesting that if this photo was from 2024 I'd have no way of proving this to you.

Current AI will routinely have crisp foreground and similar but blurred background --no doubt because it has been trained on such images (that, like this one, are real). The cleanup and lack of any granular detail here also looks AI, but that's probably just the usual digital airbrushing. My mistake.

Some one definitely went in with photoshop and obliterated the fine structure high entropy noise from her skin. Or maybe that's make up, idk.

Yeah I'm really not getting the point either way.

Right. Even pearls typically look bad on the really pale (especially blondes) unless they’re tanned to the ‘Swede after 4 weeks in Australia’ level. Dark hair gives you some more options for standout silver or diamond earrings but anything large is still usually a poor decision. As regards a simple necklace, whether it should hang high or low depends on your facial and neck structure, skinniness, clavicles and cleavage so varies. Still, less is more.

It's all degenerate and disgusting. Especially the tattoos, since you can't just go and remove them when you come to your senses. Plus, the massive proliferation of tattoos to the point where many people are just inked up with doodles for the hell of it is...WTF. In any case, no.

That kind of body modification is transhumanism for dumpsters. Any stupid bullshit goes in there so long as it's fashionable.

Also in Old Man Yelling At Clouds today: Stop dying your hair and grow out your eyebrows; those ridiculous marker lines above the eyes make you look like a caricature of a woman.

Random doodles you'd expect on toilet walls in a pub, but on your skin, as tattoos, ~permanently. Genuinely incomprehensible to me as anything other than a purely negative signal.

Large, elaborate, but a coherent work of art - fine.

One or two small ones, clear focus - rolling my eyes, but fine.

Indelible mark that communicates to an exclusive group one's belonging to that group - A tattoo is a natural choice.

Art that wouldn't work if it wasn't on a body - Could have done the same thing without making it permanent.

Fine art that could have been hung in a frame - Just hang it in a frame.

Humour or material that only means something to you - Just stick it to a pin board.

A design that you want people to see you wearing - Just print it on a t-shirt.

Incredibly niche specific purpose, like disguising blueprints so that you can smuggle them into prison or enacting a strategy to deduce who murdered your wife despite persistent amnesia - You're a character in a screenplay.

those ridiculous marker lines above the eyes make you look like a caricature of a woman

When I was young there was a trend among Mexican teenagers to pluck out their eyebrows and draw a brown mark approximately where the eyebrow should be. It looked horrible. Beyond forgivable. And the natural look of the Mexican girls is quite good. They were running their looks.

I don't see so much of it these days. The dark times have mostly passed.

Plus, the massive proliferation of tattoos to the point where many people are just inked up with doodles for the hell of it is...WTF. In any case, no.

I don't like tattoos either, but I've realized recently that a big complex sleeve offends me less than a bunch of smaller tattoos. Maybe those people were right, and size really doesn't matter?

I was not raised a conservative Christian, but I can't stand bull rings and ear gauges either.

And I don't think it's uncommon, it's a bit of a meme about various "rate me" subreddits that men there always downrate women with septum piercings.

Are you fine with chest tattoos?

pierced septums

Truly repulsive. The small ones make me constantly want to wipe their nose. Like a small booger. Gross.

tongues

Probably severe daddy issues and or some sort of drug problem. Also I assume they suck dick.

gauges

Disgusting and... confusing? I have no idea why people do this. Piercings are a sort of jewelry, kind of like a ring or necklace, I guess. But gauges are ugly disks that stretch and distort a very visible part of your head? Why? Making yourself ugly for "fuck you" shock value? If so, pretty cringe.

nose studs/belly button piercings

Trying too hard. You can look edgy or interesting just by dressing better.

earrings

Tiny ones are cute, preferably something simple or whimsical. Bigger ones are meh unless it's part of your overall aesthetic.

tattoos

Nearly always horrible, and now so mainstream that even the "good" ones are pretty mundane. Might work if you're a career criminal.

I was raised middle class in the South where, besides earrings, none of that stuff was done.

Four weeks ago, I praised the TV show "The Good Wife", but forgot to mention that its creators followed it with a great black comedy mini-series called "BrainDead," whose premise can't really be explained without spoilers. I recommend it.

I'm thinking of biting the bullet on plastic surgery. I've always had chubby cheeks, without that much definition even when I was 10 kilos lighter, and buccal fat removal was something I'd been eyeing for years. I just didn't really have the money or the impetus to go for it back then.

I had an appointment with a reputable plastic surgeon today, and started off with a debate on whether he could exclude body dysmorphia in my case lol. I explained that in a psychiatric context, didn't any degree of dissatisfaction with one's physical appearance that involved attempts to modify it count? Why doesn't going to the gym or dieting to lose weight count? Besides, you'd need to have significant impairment in psychosocial functioning to warrant it. The DSM-5 includes, under BDD:*

Preoccupation with one or more perceived defects or flaws in physical appearance that are not observable or appear slight to others

While the roundness of one's face is a subjective thing, it's certainly not non-observable.

At any rate, he pretty successfully upsold me, explaining that I had hypertrophic masseters, which would make mere buccal fat removal not have very significant effects on the overall contour of the face. He also explained that instead of discarding buccal fat, as is the norm, he finds benefit from it being re-injected below the eyes and on the chin. To help tone down the masseters further, he suggested botox. I'm not particularly keen on semi-annual injections into my face, but I think it's worth a shot.

Anyone undergo anything similar?

*If it's unclear, he was taking the piss. I don't have body dysmorphia, it's a high bar to cross.

Aside from the transhumanist discussion (and, yknow), why the masseters? Isnt a wide jaw good for men, when it isnt just fat? Youre the one that learned anatomy, but I think thats the masseters we see here.

Besides adverse motivations, have you considered adverse psychological reactions? I at one point shaved off an about fingerlong beard all at once, and afterwards I felt like my head was ridiculously wide. It was quite a strange experience: I tried to check sizes and proprotions in just parts of the face and it would just... fail... and pop me back into the bigger picture where its ridiculously wide. I knew it was my face in the mirror, but it didnt feel like my face, and thats not a good experience. I resolved not to look into mirrors for a while to not feed that thought, and it was gone after a week or so. I dont entirely understand what happened, but this was from a fairly normal and minor change in appearance, and Id worry that a real plastic surgery would be worse and maybe stick around - fortunately nothing to do there. (If it matters, I definitely look better without the beard, and not just because the "haircut" it had was terrible.)

Please note that I'm not a plastic or cosmetic surgeon, nor did I pay as much attention during anatomy lessons as could be desired. The masseter can be attractive, but it's not as simple as larger is better. Bone structure, buccal fat, these all have significant effects. In the worst cases, but not mine, large masseters and buccal pads that don't go away despite weight loss can make someone appear chipmunk faced rather than like a gigachad. On the other end, a v-shaped or tapered jaw/cheek line is also a beauty standard for men, even if not as "masculine".

Psychological side effects? Honestly, I don't think they're that big a deal here. I'm not going to wake up looking like a completely different person, so I think my self-image would recover quickly. Your example of a shave is actually already in the right ballpark. Humans are usually quite resilient here. I would expect to see dysmorphic or dysphoric reactions in someone already quite mentally unwell (think severe body image issues, which didn't get better after the surgery). While I nurse dissatisfaction about my corporeal form, it's not BDD.

(I severely regret clean shaves, the last time I was coaxed into it by an ex, I was a very saddened Samson indeed).

Your example of a shave is actually already in the right ballpark.

I guess I disagree? I can see why youd think that, if youre going by an "objective" metric of similarity, but by that metric a 5 year old will always be more similar to another 5 year old than a 50 year old - and yet, we often recognise relatives on pictures where they were 5. For the sense of "do you look like the same person", things that naturally vary over time such as hair length are much less impactful than ones that require surgery.

Humans are usually quite resilient here. I would expect to see dysmorphic or dysphoric reactions in someone already quite mentally unwell

I mean, I think Im mentally well. But the reason I got rid of the beard is that it still felt uncomfortably a year in, so it doesnt seem crazy to me that such visual changes would stick around as well.

I guess I disagree? I can see why youd think that, if youre going by an "objective" metric of similarity, but by that metric a 5 year old will always be more similar to another 5 year old than a 50 year old - and yet, we often recognise relatives on pictures where they were 5. For the sense of "do you look like the same person", things that naturally vary over time such as hair length are much less impactful than ones that require surgery.

I strongly disagree on empirical grounds. Google Photo's ML face identifier consistently tracks me going back all the way to the ripe age of 4, and doesn't think I'm another random child. This simply would not work if things were as you suggest!

I mean, I think Im mentally well. But the reason I got rid of the beard is that it still felt uncomfortably a year in, so it doesnt seem crazy to me that such visual changes would stick around as well.

I'd feel uncomfortable without one, so it's more likely that your own internalized ideal of your body image has you clean shaven, whereas mine is the opposite. People who opt for plastic surgery are far more likely to have BDD, but a person who doesn't will very likely come out of it with no hangups if it wasn't a botch job.

I agree that an AI can track the "same person" thing just fine if its trained that way. But if you understand that metric, then why do you think shaving is a similar size change to surgery? Or did you already have some kind of plastic surgery that it saw through?

I'd feel uncomfortable without one, so it's more likely that your own internalized ideal of your body image has you clean shaven

No, Im very sure the discomfort is a tactile thing. Thats certainly how it seems to me, and in terms of the timeline, it was only quite a bit later, looking at photos, that I thought it had looked stupid. If Id thought that ahead of time I just wouldnt have grown it out. Again, said beard got to over 5cm, because I hoped it would feel more like headhair once long enough. Ive had short beards since, and the difference between comfortable and uncomfortable lengths is not particularly visible.

What did the surgeon say the downsides would be? My understanding is that plastic surgeons had collectively cooled on it, due to problems like proximity to nerves and difficulty in achieving symmetry (especially if done under local anesthesia), in addition to possible long term appearance problems or unrealistic expectations about short term appearances.

He most warned about inadequate results requiring followup, and a (short) post-op recovery period. Also advised me not to rush into things, which is made moot by the fact that I won't be back home for another 6 months. He did check my expectations by explaining that just BFR wouldn't achieve the desires I was seeking.

My (basic) research into complication rates was heartening, with <1% neurological complication rates, particularly facial nerve injury. Even then, most of the time it's transient. There just isn't that much critical infrastructure in the typical site of insertion.

Asymmetry is always a concern, but be suggested 2ml of fat per cheek to start with, which is on the low end.

In the UK, I'd expect a great deal more boilerplate about potential risks, but that's not as common in India, and he might have felt that as a fellow medical professional, I would know of the side effects .

Personal belief: The things you select for in a partner are going to end up being the things you get selected on.

How much do you select for attractiveness? If the answer is a lot then any improvements you can make are probably going to be worth it. If the answer is something like "it matters but I care more about personality, compatibility, and intelligence" then I don't think it will be worth it to you and may be actively harmful.

Think of where you'd compromise on a perfect partner, would you want them a little dumber, a little uglier, a little less sexual, a little meaner? You will also get some of that compromise, because you won't be perfect for them. What does a woman's willingness to compromise on a trait say about them? A woman willing to compromise on attractiveness a bit might care more about who you are. The part of you she cares about might vary, money, intelligence, humor, etc. But it's not necessarily a bad sign.

Some things to think about, because finding a partner isn't always a straightforward "be better in every category".

I have a pretty high floor on the amount of intelligence, beauty and ideally wit I want in a long-term partner. I'd say that my ex before my last one was the closest to marriage material, barring what I strongly suspect is undiagnosed BPD. There's such a thing as too crazy to handle, no matter how hot.

Of course, these are, to an extent, fungible. But I still have strict floors. Too dumb but hot? Okay for a fling, but I'm not risking my kids coming out with my beauty and her brains. As I humbly explained in another comment, I had a hot model with a loaded family begging me to stay back in India and marry her. She was, unfortunately, very dumb. I could have taken advantage of her by promising marriage and then screwing around like her exes did, but I have some personal ethics.

Similarly, I'd love my partner to be intelligent, more than me? Even better. Helps the kids and makes them more engaging. I'd probably not go for someone brilliant but horrendous, being ugly is a severe disadvantage for future kids.

Think of where you'd compromise on a perfect partner, would you want them a little dumber, a little uglier, a little less sexual, a little meaner? You will also get some of that compromise, because you won't be perfect for them. What does a woman's willingness to compromise on a trait say about them? A woman willing to compromise on attractiveness a bit might care more about who you are. The part of you she cares about might vary, money, intelligence, humor, etc. But it's not necessarily a bad sign.

I can accept tradeoffs on any of those axes. I don't feel like any of my partners to date had to settle. While I'm not outright handsome, I at least look decent enough that it's not an outright detriment, just neutral. Unfortunately, the universe is unfair, and there are other men who are both smart and handsome to compete with.

A woman willing to compromise on attractiveness a bit might care more about who you are. The part of you she cares about might vary, money, intelligence, humor, etc. But it's not necessarily a bad sign.

I'd expect the sum of everything other than my looks to still be decent, but they certainly haven't dated me for my ravishing appearance. I do agree that it's better to have them attracted to me for my personality or wit, but eh, the real world is messy.

suspect is undiagnosed BPD

Looks, intelligence, wit and mentally healthy. Pick 3 ?

If I had to choose, I'd sacrifice wit. I'm funny enough for 2, and I can always laugh at my own jokes.

When I search for images of "buccal fat removal men before and after" I get pictures that don't differ much at all, similar to "face during a bulk vs face during a cut".

On the one hand, this means you are unlikely to end up looking like Skeletor or Erin Moriarty. On the other hand, is it worth the expense?

I'd also add that this kind of surgery flags you as super vain to most western women. If its not making a huge difference it might be signaling you don't want to take on.

It's not that expensive, perks of opting for this while visiting India. I don't have an exact quote, but even accounting for the expense of the best hospital around (no ex employee discount, sadly), I doubt it will cross 4k USD. Optimistically, less than 1k USD. I'll know a better figure once I go to the billing desk, I was too lazy to queue today. Just the buccal fat removal would be around 4k USD in the States.

There are different degrees of fat removal. My surgeon suggested 2ml both sides, which is a conservative approach. So you can go from anywhere from subtle to gaunt.

Last week I went to a followup on my stitches that the doctor who stitched me up had suggested I schedule with their plastic surgery practice. She didn't actually tell me I needed anything beyond using silicon scar tape at night, which I had already heard through the grapevine, and at any rate I'm pretty happy with how the scar is healing up, and anyway I'm married. But my wife has been highly amused, because she can now say that I went to a plastic surgeon before she did.

In general, my wife went off right now when I told her this Q, you want to be doing a lot of stuff before you start plastic surgery. Buccal fat removal in particular is really risky because you can't get it back, so if you take it out now, and your face continues to slim out as is typical with aging, you might be looking like skeletor in another ten years. ((Mrs. FiveHour: Buccal fat is the most evil procedure, alongside maybe lip filler.)) Then you get filler to fix that, filler has all kinds of problems with fading or migrating, so you have to fix that, and now you're on the plastic-surgery-overcorrection cycle. There are a lot of other options in the aesthetic treatment range to attempt first.

Have you ever heard of or tried microcurrent devices like the Ziip? It's a microcurrent device that basically electrocutes your facial muscles. The designers claim all kinds of benefits from facial contouring to clearing up skin. My wife has one, I've played around with it, but I've never been disciplined enough or cared enough to keep up with it for months. When I've used it on the "contouring" setting it does get some of that sharper look I think you're going for, and it's relatively cheap and very low risk compared to other choices you have. I know there are also salons or spas or whatever that offer a higher-end version of the home product in microcurrent facials, which you could try without committing to purchasing one and using it all the time. Rescue Spa is the top end, but I don't think they're overseas.

My wife recommends botox, it is cheap and low risk. Find a reputable provider and get very little. Start small, most women do way too much which leads to the paralyzed look. What's nice is it just goes away if you use the right amount. My wife gets them biannually, it's no big deal, small amounts in the forehead. It'll be ten years before it approaches the cost of a real surgical procedure. Let it fade off completely between shots.

Also possibly PRP injections below the eyes are something to look into, according to Mrs. FiveHour.

In general there's nothing wrong with trying to look better, and there are ways to do it, but especially as a man you absolutely must avoid the appearance of having had plastic surgery. For women there is at least a little leeway, in that obvious plastic surgery at least often has the effect of making her look slutty and sexually available, so it's not all bad. For men, visible plastic surgery is pretty much the worst thing possible, making a man look vain, effeminate, faggy, untrustworthy, and foolish. So start light and focus on the long game.

I looked into PRP, and it's worse than I thought. It has a decent evidence base and moderate efficacy for orthopedic procedures, such as knee issues and rotator cuff repairs. For cosmetic purposes? A mire of tiny, biased/sponsored studies and a lot of nulls.

The face has a lot of blood circulation. From first principles alone, I doubt just putting more of it back in would help.

I'm aware of the risks, but they seem small and acceptable to me. My surgeon has recommended 2ml of fat removed per cheek, which is AFAIK, a very conservative value. I've probably got a decade or more before my cheeks shrink by themselves, and looking at older family members, it's not very noticeable. I think the risk of becoming gaunt is manageable.

Have you ever heard of or tried microcurrent devices like the Ziip? It's a microcurrent device that basically electrocutes your facial muscles. The designers claim all kinds of benefits from facial contouring to clearing up skin. My wife has one, I've played around with it, but I've never been disciplined enough or cared enough to keep up with it for months. When I've used it on the "contouring" setting it does get some of that sharper look I think you're going for, and it's relatively cheap and very low risk compared to other choices you have. I know there are also salons or spas or whatever that offer a higher-end version of the home product in microcurrent facials, which you could try without committing to purchasing one and using it all the time. Rescue Spa is the top end, but I don't think they're overseas.

I'll have to look into it, but my gut feeling is that it's not reliable. I can't see an obvious MOA from merely passing current through the face muscles!

My wife recommends botox, it is cheap and low risk. Find a reputable provider and get very little. Start small, most women do way too much which leads to the paralyzed look. What's nice is it just goes away if you use the right amount. My wife gets them biannually, it's no big deal, small amounts in the forehead. It'll be ten years before it approaches the cost of a real surgical procedure. Let it fade off completely between shots.

Good advice, send her my thanks. I believe masseter botox doesn't have much impact on facial expressions or wrinkles, the biggest side effect is usually decreased chewing strength and fatigue, and that usually wears off quick.

Also possibly PRP injections below the eyes are something to look into, according to Mrs. FiveHour.

Fillers are okay as a temporary solutions, but autologous fat grafts, especially from the buccal area, tend to be far more lasting. I'm a little skeptical of PRP as a therapy tbh. Is she recommending it for enhancing the upper cheek? I don't really have baggy eyes, or at least I don't care about them.

In general there's nothing wrong with trying to look better, and there are ways to do it, but especially as a man you absolutely must avoid the appearance of having had plastic surgery. For women there is at least a little leeway, in that obvious plastic surgery at least often has the effect of making her look slutty and sexually available, so it's not all bad. For men, visible plastic surgery is pretty much the worst thing possible, making a man look vain, effeminate, faggy, untrustworthy, and foolish. So start light and focus on the long game.

I see a dozen woman a day on the streets who I can tell have had work done. I struggle to name a single non-celebrity man. Most men opt for hair transplants as their foray into cosmetic surgery. The BFR and masseter botox don't leave any visible scars, and barring the risk of lopsidedness (unlikely with a skilled surgeon), I really doubt anyone could tell. They'd probably think I've lost weight and worked out, which to be fair, I'm doing alongside the procedure. I'm interested in a rhinoplasty, which would be harder to explain away, but I doubt anyone would particularly care.

I see a dozen woman a day on the streets who I can tell have had work done. I struggle to name a single non-celebrity man.

Yes, its unusual for regular people in most of the west. Are you sure you want to be vain enough to buck the trend?

Probably? I don't particularly care if people think I'm vain.

Plastic surgery is like toupees, you only notice the bad ones. I'm not trying to become a Bogdanoff or a Bryan Johnson.

I honestly think self esteem is a choice. Who cares what other people think? Only you can decide to feel inferior. As a man, who you are, what you do, and thirdly what you believe matters more. If you already have high educational attainment and social status, why do you care about how others perceive you? Seems like a hedonistic treadmill effect. Maybe this is the key to your everlasting happiness, but I doubt it.

In a vacuum? Who gives a shit?

When I'm trying to attract women, and looking to settle down and marry before the decade is out? Then what other people think of you matters.

While it's polite to underplay how much of a difference being attractive makes in real life, that's somewhere between cope and an attempt to make people feel better about themselves. I have a handsome younger brother. I'm facially average, but thankfully I'm tall. Even if love him, I can't help but feel a twinge of jealousy at how trivially he could have just about any woman he wants. When it turned out that he's borderline asexual, all I could do is groan at the waste. Some people need to hustle for a meal, others are just taking up space at a buffet table and not even trying the appetizers.

I think my self-esteem is at a reasonable place. I've got plenty to be proud about. Yet self-esteem is far from the only thing that matters. Someone with schizophrenia, bipolar during mania, or other personality disorders, might well have great self-esteem while their life falls apart.

Seems like a hedonistic treadmill effect. Maybe this is the key to your everlasting happiness, but I doubt it.

I'm not doing this to be ensure everlasting happiness. I'm doing this to be more attractive, primarily for the purposes of being more appealing to the opposite sex. That bit is durable, even if my happy afterglow fades.

I think people are being a little hard on this question. While it's true that self confidence and lowering the importance of what people think of you is important, a $1-4k investment to be more attractive is appealing.

Very rarely do we get to trade money for this. You have to go to the gym and work hard, eat like a rabbit, study for hours, and master the art of conversation over a lifetime to "be more attractive". Just because other men don't take the shortcut doesn't mean you can't.

I'd echo other concerns about how it would look long term far more than "perceived vanity".

Thank you. Leaving aside understandable differences in risk tolerance, some people really hate the idea of "shortcuts". Semaglutide is treated like a ticking time bomb, because surely things can't be that simple can it? The universe doesn't care, good things can and do happen.

Same with plastic surgery. If it works, it works and nobody knows anything except that you're looking better and younger. $ for results, but it's not like going to the gym doesn't cost time, money and have risks. I'm obviously concerned about cutting into my face, but it seems like a good trade off. I'm doing everything, including working out.

When I'm trying to attract women, and looking to settle down and marry before the decade is out? Then what other people think of you matters.

It's your right to decide whether you do this thing or not. But this is a terrible reason because it just isn't true. Lots and lots of people (the vast majority, in fact) attract a mate without resorting to cosmetic surgery. You, yourself, have said you've had reasonable success with women. In other words, this sort of thing is not needed. Getting some face fat removed from you is simply not going to matter to your ability to get married before the decade is out.

I have very high standards for the quality of partner I would marry and entrust to give half their genes to our kids. By virtue of being more attractive, I have a wider pool to work with, and can winnow them with more care. To the extent that hot, smart and successful women demand the same in their partners, I can only work towards making myself better at them all. I wouldn't want to marry a bimbo, what if the kids come out with my looks and her brains?

In other words, I can pretty easily find someone to marry. I could do it tomorrow, my family has had feelers put out by Indian families, here and in the UK, who would put a ring on it. Even by dint of my own efforts, I think about 20% of the women I dated over 3 months (before going steady with one) wanted to marry me, and were serious about it. One of them was a very hot, rich professional model, but she was dumb as rocks. She begged me to stay back in India and marry her. I turned that down. I could probably have taken advantage of her, screwed her and fled like her exes did, but I try not to be an asshole.

I hope that makes my point clear. Investing in my appearance (and I've worked on everything else) by getting work done and working out increases my appeal on the dating market - - - > increases pool of women to sleep with/marry - - - > increases the odds of finding the One. I'm not worried about getting married, that's trivial, I want to marry someone who makes me feel great about that choice.

No but I'm always worried about surgery because we can't know how good it can go and people many times end up getting multiple. If you go through with this, please do not get multiple things fixed, many never stop post their first though you are unlikely to be compulsive.

Working out is different in that it helps one inculcate other qualities beyond the physical appearance, Steve Maxwell is 72, has visible abs and still rolls, he wrote a blog post on this topic stating that in a good trainee, the discipline you showcase and the virtue you develop are reflected physically. Undergoing a decent regimen makes you stronger on the inside, it won't make you into a medieval knight, but it does make you better. Still I'm not the psychiatrist here or a very good or experienced physical culturalist.

No but I'm always worried about surgery because we can't know how good it can go and people many times end up getting multiple. If you go through with this, please do not get multiple things fixed, many never stop post their first though you are unlikely to be compulsive

You can still do a cost benefit analysis, and doctors/surgeons do those all the time. In this case, I need to weigh up looking significantly better versus maybe 2-3k USD and a 3% risk of complications. Given the obvious benefits of being more handsome, I'm willing to take the gamble. I'm averse to more complex surgeries like jaw shaving, and don't think they're warranted yet. I might consider a rhinoplasty in the future.

I wanted just buccal fat removed, but he made a strong case that I also have large masseter muscles, which makes my face squarer, and rounded with the fat added on. What drew me here was the relatively minimal invasiveness of the procedure, and to be fair, the things he's recommending adding on aren't big adds.

Working out is different in that it helps one inculcate other qualities beyond the physical appearance, Steve Maxwell is 72, has visible abs and still rolls, he wrote a blog post on this topic stating that in a good trainee, the discipline you showcase and the virtue you develop are reflected physically. Undergoing a decent regimen makes you stronger on the inside, it won't make you into a medieval knight, but it does make you better. Still I'm not the psychiatrist here or a very good or experienced physical culturalist.

I've started working out again, and intend to stick to it! It's comparatively low hanging fruit, and I'll grab what I can.

You're the transhumanist; off you go to self-modify at once!

I mean, my advice would be to just live with your face, which probably isn't that bad to begin with, but I don't suppose you're the target audience for that.

I was considering that I'd go on a minor rant about transhumanism and better living through medicine in my original post, but I'd risk becoming a walking stereotype or one-trick pony haha. Evidently, it wasn't even necessary with my reputation.

My facial features are average. When I'm well groomed and dressed up, I'd dare call myself a 7/10 on a genuine gaussian curve, i.e 70th percentile for Indian men. If I'm not trying? 5-6/10. I have other appealing characteristics, but I only look decent enough for it to not sway the scales either way, positively or negatively.

This is adequate. It's not ideal. My younger brother lucked out on the genetic lottery, and could probably work as a model. I've seen the very obvious differences in how women act around him, and think "Lord, I've seen what you've done for others, and want that for myself."

I could probably go through the rest of my life without plastic surgery, and do fine. I'd have to work out harder, lose more weight, but there's only so much that can do. Yet, I think this is an intervention with positive expected value, if I can bump myself up ten percentile points for a few thousand USD, I struggle to think of anything better. The risks, while present, aren't that bad.

In a frenzy of self-improvement, I'm hitting the gym like it owes me money, and ordered some semaglutide to boot. My transhumanism isn't lip service, I put my money where my mouth and surrounding fat is.

I'd dare call myself a 7/10 on a genuine gaussian curve, i.e 70th percentile for Indian men.

Are you only competing with other indian men? I thought you were in the UK for some reason.

Indian men are somewhat disadvantaged in that regard, as our facial features don't always meet Western standards. You can probably knock a point or another half off by UK standards.

Indian ones are what I'm best calibrated to, and at the time of writing, I'm on holiday back home.

Some would say that comparing people of different races in terms of attractiveness is like comparing apples and oranges in terms of taste.

The thing is, you can compare apples and oranges. And we have objective data from places like OkCupid (while it was cool) and just general subjective observations of vibes.

Indian men, while not at the absolute bottom of the totem pole, are disadvantaged. Our ideals of beauty align well with the West, barring the matter of tans, but we're further from that ideal. Not to mention the casual negativity around Indian men dating there. I say this with chagrin, but it's true.

There's definitely an averseness towards the median Indian. I mean the demeanor of the average Indian immigrant: Kumail Nanjiani in Silicon Valley, but additionally unkempt, ponchy and flaunting a chicken neck. In my experience, Indians immigrants are the least fit and worst dressed of any ethnic group. OKCupid was primarily rating this subset. No wonder they were rated terribly.

How Indian do you look ? Often, Indians can blend into other ethnicities with demeanor, accent & fashion changes. Gets you past a person's initial mental block.

As long as Indians have their basics out of wack, it's pointless to discuss their attractiveness. Kumail's transformation is a good example, if slightly exaggerated. I can give other examples. Women are obsessed with Dev Patel and Sendhil Ramamurthy[hot]/[not]. Both look like average Indian dudes in their less-handsome roles. Many Indians are blessed with thick hair, beards and eye brows. Play to those advantages and you'll get +2 boost.

The woke are right about one thing : representation. Women want to date the man of their dreams, but the dreams are manufactured via media. With Indian men getting fresh representation in sexy-man roles, there now are Indian men who women pine for. It's on you to fit into those molds. Additionally, it helps that Brown has become a generic identity. If you don't want to be Indian, you can be brown.

4chan/twitter hate for Indians can be safely ignored. A woman who goes swimming in those sewers is probably too nuclear for a simple man any way. There are exceptions ofc, but as football fans like saying, "[too much ball knowledge means too much ball knowledge].

How Indian do you look ? Often, Indians can blend into other ethnicities with demeanor, accent & fashion changes. Gets you past a person's initial mental block.

Very. The closest I can get to passing myself off as anything else would that clip from Harold and Kumar where they try to hail a police officer as a fellow Indian, and he tells them he's actually Hispanic.

I don't, however, sound Indian at all.

With Indian men getting fresh representation in sexy-man roles, there now are Indian men who women pine for. It's on you to fit into those molds.

I suppose if I got light work done, worked out for a while, I could look passably close to the "hot" version of Ramamurthy. If I lost 7-8 kilos and just was a tad bit more fit, I'd probably manage the "not" without issue. I'm not becoming a twink like Dev Patel without a time machine and different spermatozoa.

I can attest that being sufficiently handsome can make up for any ethnicity, my handsome best friend didn't have any issues at all in the UK or the States.

4chan/twitter hate for Indians can be safely ignored. A woman who goes swimming in those sewers is probably too nuclear for a simple man any way. There are exceptions ofc, but as football fans like saying, "[too much ball knowledge means too much ball knowledge].

Can't say I particularly care what 4chan thinks. Don't recall every shitting on a street myself. This isn't a big concern for me, though I'm sure more insecure and neurotic Indians might suffer. I've never been treated in an uncivil manner in reality by virtue of my race

I'm not particularly keen on semi-annual injections into my face, but I think it's worth a shot.

I'd consider getting a second opinion to make sure there isn't some 'one and done' permanent surgery available rather than this SaaS (Surgery as a Service) ongoing maintenance payment.

Botox just works that way. I'm not sure I'd consider it a surgery in the first place. The others should, at least in ideal circumstances, be one and done. While I'm far from a plastic surgeon, I think his points were reasonable.

I came out of it with a relatively positive impression of the surgeon, he seemed quite prudent and even suggested that I take time to think this through. Unfortunately, I'm flying back to the UK soon, and it's going to cost me an order of magnitude more. For what it's worth, his credentials are impeccable, so I'd struggle to find someone else in the time frame I'm working under.

All good points. Why not give it a go then? If its low risk (you've done a credential check) and affordable you can give it a trial and see if you like the results.

I probably will. It's certainly much cheaper in India versus what it would be in the UK. The buccal fat removal is permanent (without fillers or transplants to reverse it), but I can always forego the botox in the future.

Of course you might end up looking weird. I'm guessing these places have pics of their previous work? A former colleague had a vanity-driven surgery to suck fat out of his baggy (in his mind) eyelids. But because he has serious sleep issues and his genius response to this was just to begin taking Ambien, he looks now like a guy with two black eyes about a week into healing. This is post-surgery.

Don't mind me, though, I'm generally adamantly against cosmetic surgery to begin with.

He's just about as credentialed as one can desire for a plastic surgeon, I believe he trained at Harvard. He also showed me several cases with before and after photos, and I was impressed by the results. Of course, they don't show off the botch jobs..

Cosmetic procedures vary in their risk, buccal fat removal is safe as it goes, with a pooled risk of complications of around 1-3%. That covers both minor and major issues. I'm not as up to speed on the reimplantation of the fat or the botox, but from first principles, they're probably not any worse. All the incisions are inside the mouth, which means no visible scars. Not much bleeding, so the risk of haematomas or infection are rather minor. That's ignoring the risk of failure or non-ideal results. Buccal fat naturally goes away with age, so if overdone, can leave you with sagging cheeks or jowls. I can consider that a problem for another few decades down the line, it can be fixed.

At the end of the day, it's up to one's personal risk appetite and how content they are with their appearance.

A tale of two tracks

Suggested track order: HH -> WW3 -> Good Life -> Champion

I recently began listening to Kanye West's new songs, the ones I really liked were hh and ww3, ww3 in particular. This comment is a comparison of two tracks from his best album graduation(good life, champion) and two from his newest album titled cuck (hh, ww3).

For those unaware, Kanye West is an African American producer and singer who makes hip hop and is hailed as a modern day great in the genre, Kim Kardashian, his ex wife left him after his born again Christian arc in late 2010s, she ended up having a short stint with unfunny Jewish comedian Pete Davidson which sent him off the rails. Kanye was slightly conservative and was a trump guy in 2016, even contested for president in 2020 and was a full blown groyper by 2024.

Through happenstance, his anti Jewish sentiment led to him meeting ultra online lol cows like self admitted catholic eunuch milo, Mexican American anti hetero rights crusader Nicholas J Fuentes and racially ambiguous streamer Sneako known for changing ideologies faster than a Hugh Hefner could change girlsfriends.

His new album titled cuck is something for internet history. I'm not an anti semite and the wall of text above exists to give context and perhaps Crack you up a little. The song HH which doesn't stand for Hulk Hogan brother is Kanye's first major track that got banned o all streaming platforms beyond twitter. The name "nigga Heil hitler" seems something out of a 4chan acid trip. The follow up titled world war 3 us a much better song imo, both are very catchy and the alleged schizophrenic rants by Kanye in both make you laugh.

Many artists grapple unsuccessfully with mental issues, Kanye keeps apologising to (((them))) and upon reactivation of his account, takes it all back and then some. I first heard him in Chiang Mai during a very difficult time of my life and his album graduation stood out, two tracks in particular, champion which is about his father and Good Life which is about living well.

His personality changed post that album due to his mother's demise and I haven't heard much beyond that one album and I'll keep it that way as I dislike hip hop, however I do urge mottizens to give his old and new works a shot. The newer tracks give a decent enough explanation of his erratic behavior and the two older ones are about him looking forward to life as he can sense it's his time. The tragedy being that all of it didn't work out well. His mother passed away before saw him become a megastar, his white picket fence catholic idea of marriage fell apart so bad that he cannot see his kids, who will grow up in a broken household despite having parents worth a billion.

Ye has real grievances he cannot admit publicly, hip hop has gangster roots, weakness isn't "keeping it real". The contrast between two tracks stand out. In the good life he brags about the women he bags whilst in both hh and ww3, he semi unironically admits that he is seen as a cuck. Money and fame did not in fact make his life better.

His mention of his nitrous abuse is brought up in both new tracks. I tried it once, with a girl I really liked on my time backpacking in pai Thailand, it's a short high, quite intense and long term abuse will cause your spine fatal problems. Mr West is 47, graduation came out about 18 years ago now and this comment isn't a writeup to promote low brow right wing talking points.

Somewhere in his head, there's a happy kanye who could provide his kids the life he wanted and lived to see them grow up, alas we only get an extremely online nitrous huffer who may not see the next decade.

I ways he was aware as we look through some lyrics from champion

"having money ain't everything, not having it is".

And the chrous from good life

Did you realize

That you were a champion in their eyes? (Kanye's referring to his father here)

Yes I did

So I packed it up and brought it back to the crib

Just a little something, show you how we live

Everybody want it, but it ain't that serious Mhm, that's that shit

So if you gon' do it, do it just like this... like this

Unfortunately, it did get serious, marrying a woman who got famous off of showing skin and trying to get her to be your trad wife did cost him, the old addage goes "men conquer the world, women conquer men" . Kanye isn't Bach, he's still a damn good artist. I sympathize with him deeply.

Nostalgia is a bad thing, an emotion I rarely like as life's lived forwards, not backwards. I'll listen to his newer tracks now before I pop on the two I like from graduation, it's summer, sometimes you should stop and look back. Dondas son made it to TV and he did put shit down.

This video of RZA making a beat from scratch for a Guitar Center promo has me rolling.

The comments are brilliant:

my guy wanted to add a hi hat and decided Mr Krabs running would be a better fit

"To have that modern sound, I'm just gonna add a little hi hat. A normal... a normal, like, hi hat from uh...... modern music, shall we say?" is such a goddamn funny quote. You can almost see him trying not to laugh lmao

in his defence, we're not hearing it through those headphones

“Two guys connected……………………you can’t beat that.”

Reminds me of Ross' wordless sound poems.

And he does it using the infamous Beat Kangz Beat Thang!

I'll be installing Linux on my laptop finally and my parents celebrate their 28th anniversary tomorrow. Do drop distro and or gift suggestions.

Linux always seemed appealing but I never got around to using it as I was always scared that I'd break things irreparably. Plenty of people toy around with their machine and make it pretty fast or aesthetic (unixporn is a cool sub). Does anyone do the same?

I always suggest Arch in the spirit of throwing yourself into the deep end - it was my first distro and the learning curve was formative for me. That said I just set up Bazzite for a friend who's primarily interested in gaming, and have been using Debian and Mint for my project machines. I recently migrated my desktop off a Bazzite dual boot to Debian because Bazzite's frankensteinian package management makes it a terrible workstation for me, and then I had to switch to the unstable channel because my 7800 XT doesn't have usable drivers in stable.

WRT aesthetics, I ran Cinnamon on my laptop with a custom theme that replicated the Windows XP look and feel, which was pretty fun for a while. In the last few weeks though I've been moving my machines away from Cinnamon towards XFCE, mostly because Cinnamon's screensaver is kinda broken on multiple monitors of different dimensions and i3 is a little too minimal for me. For funsies I tried NsCDE on my laptop for a few days, but it's a little too alien for my modern kek sensibilities, though I like the retro Motif feel.

I was always scared that I'd break things irreparably.

Ahh, youth. What you do is you pick up the cheapest computer (laptop, desktop, pick what suits you best) you can find on clearance and pave over it with Arch. Specifically Arch, because they try to avoid making decisions for you. Follow the installation guide to the point where the install is finished, you've got your account made, all that. Switch to a terminal, sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root, and intentionally destroy your setup. Do the installation again from the top - blow out your partitions and make them over again, the whole nine yards. Break out of the mindset of being too scared to break things, practice good data hygiene (like keeping your home directory on a separate partition/drive), and know that even if you literally delete your entire OS, you have done that before and it's not really a big deal when you can just backup your home/data directories and rebuild the whole thing from nothing. Then recognize that most breakages you'll encounter are orders of magnitude less destructive to your system than what you just did.

Then fuck around with the explicit intention of finding out daily drive your new system with the knowledge that if there's something annoying you, you can fix it. My first Arch setup on a laptop, I got distracted by solving issues with the graphics drivers and never got around to doing the whole system blowout. Daily drove that laptop for five years and I learned shitloads from doing so.

  1. Post your laptop specs (mainly RAM, graphics, wifi, or exact model number).

  2. And your needs from it - gaming, browsing (which browser), prior experience with windows or mac?, any other.

  3. try to go with a LTS version (and not rolling release distro from the start).

This year, get your parents the gift of Linux. Conventional wisdom says that for happiness, experiences are better than possessions. I hear Gentoo is an experience.

A family that crashes their distros together stays together.

Also cool flair.

I have a big breakdown here for both disto recs and general tips and tricks, and I'll stand by it. I'm running an arch hypr variant, and it's a good learning experience and looks great, but it's not really ideal as a daily driver or for people that are not techies -- Linux Mint, Ubuntu, or even Elementary/Zorin will probably be better experiences your first time around.

It's very hard to break things irreparably with Linux, but it's unfortunately easier-than-Windows to get your machine into a state where a fresh install will be easier than cleaning things up. Manjaro is okay, but I will caution that if you aren't into tech (commandline) debugging it will quite happily let you get into goofy states. Even moreso than in Windows world, having a good backup setup is very important.

If you're planning to dual-boot, I strongly recommend increasing the size of your EFI partition to 200MB-500MB. It's not often an issue, but it's a lot less painful to handle before you've got your whole computer setup.

For gifts for parents, depends a lot on the people.

Not dual booting, I'm removing windows, if manjaro keeps fucking up, I'll switch to another distro, my mentor runs arch or a variant of it, this is his suggestion, he'll help me set it today.

Ah, if you've got a familiar mentor, it's less serious a problem. I'd still recommend putting your root directory and home directory on different partitions (in a laptop) or even drives (on a desktop), but almost all serious issues are pretty solvable with a familiar expert.

He did walk me through that lol

If you want to get weird, I really enjoy tiling windows managers: instead of floating windows, they are snapped to a configurable non-overlapping layout. I feel like most people's need for multiple monitors is just a desire for tiling that their system doesn't support. I personally use i3 but there are several pretty similar options. I could share a config with vim style bindings if that floats your goat.

Yeah, I wanna pimp my distro lol

Windows PowerToys (a non-official set of enhancements authored by actual Microsoft devs) has one plug in that's an excellent tiling manager. I should probably use it more, as a 4k 49" TV at 2 feet away has more visual real estate than I know what to do with. Otherwise I'd get a second monitor, but there's literally no room on my desk.

Oh neat. I'll have to check that out for my gaming rig. First glance it seems like it is pretty limited in comparison, but probably about 70% of the value.

I'm a CS prof and I use debian. If you're into programming at all, then I'd recommend ubuntu (which is based off debian but designed to be "less ideological" and more "beginner friendly"). Most tutorials for programmers (and thus most advice from LLMs) assumes debian/ubuntu.

I'm a noob wannabe hacker who's doing this to become better at what I do and be employed via remote jobs or start indie hacking.

The constant breaking of things and hard ceilings on wsl meant that switching to Linux full time would help me get better.

Also cool to meet a prof, my dad's a second gen prof to, political theory though. Good to see academics here!

I'm using manjaro because my mentor recommends it, if it keeps breaking, I'll switch to another distro. I had Ubuntu on my wsl.

I'm a noob wannabe hacker who's doing this to become better at what I do and be employed via remote jobs or start indie hacking.

Install Linux from scratch. Distros are for people who just want to use Linux without necessarily understanding it. There's nothing wrong with that--it's why I mostly stick with WSL these days--but setting up an LFS install will teach you things about Linux that carry over to any distribution you choose to (or are forced to) use in the future.

How to Build an LFS System

The LFS system will be built by using an already installed Linux distribution

I suppose it's Linux all the way down. Unless...?

Great suggestion, I look forward to doing as soon as I can. I enjoy the process of learning and ultimately wish to be a really good hacker, be really competent and aware of as many relevant working parts as possible or necessary.

I second this. Start with Ubuntu, go from there once you get comfortable. Fedora would also be a good choice if you want to get into sysadmin stuff, since RHEL is so popular in the infrastructure world.

I've been meaning to set up some sort of Linux distro on my retired PC. It's been collecting dust ever since I assembled a new one half a year ago. Ubuntu perhaps?

Not sure what I'd do with it though. Guess I'll just mess around and learn a few things about the non-Windows world of computing... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have been using Pop! OS on laptops that don't support Windows 11. It seems nice.

Just a caution to the OP though: I've been down this road a few times, and family members did not really appreciate the benefits of Linux compared to the hassle of not being able to use the Windows apps they are used to. Even the ones I thought for sure only used web and email. In every case, I ended up having to abandon the effort.

I'm getting manjaro, it's recommended to noobs and I've been trying to get serious with my programming journey. I couldn't get Hugo and go to run properly on my wsl and that ensured I start backing stuff up. Happened last night.

Windows and Mac are both bad operating systems.

Don't get Manjaro, it's Arch for noobs, not Linux for noobs. If you want to run Arch for bragging rights, run Arch. If you need Linux for your resume and general knowledge, run some form of Ubuntu. IBM really screwed the pooch when they gutted CentOS, so now there's less demand for RPM-based distros from the corpos.

I wonder how Linux desktop keeps being something so far away each year. Many reckon programming standards have fallen as more picked up the thing.

A desktop environment is fundamentally a complex thing. You need an experienced product owner to manage a product of this complexity, but good product owners can earn more money and fame managing more hyped stuff like AI. OSX is getting worse, Windows is getting worse and Linux has never been as good as either.

I think it is more a matter of conflicting priorities. Desktops and servers have different requirements from an OS and Linux development is heavily biased toward prioritizing server requirements over desktop requirements when they conflict.

Linux development is heavily biased toward prioritizing server requirements over desktop requirements when they conflict.

Often to a ridiculous extent as seen in all the schedulers where huge benefits in desktop use are rejected from mainline in favor of 0.1% throughput increase in servers.

Why are Substack comments universally so stupid and so worshipful? Where do these ball-washers hide out all the time? It might be the worst comment section on the internet, I just don't know where these people come from. I mostly read substacks that are from weird, pseudo-hyper-masc, heterodox writers; and then the comments are all "WOW DUDE WHAT AN AMAZING ARTICLE IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST ARTICLE!"

Maybe I'm just used to here where the comment that starts out "great post" normally moves on to "In paragraph three I think that you misphrased the way Churchill thought..."

But like, is everyone paying for fake AI comments? Is there just a vast reserve of ball-washers on the internet? Are these guys just Soundcloud-tier substack writers hoping that if they're positive about a popular writer someone will notice them?

Lots of people will ban commenters that are too critical. Scott is like top 1% in terms of letting people he doesn't like comment on his articles. If you're used to his comment sections then everything else will look like, “gee, our benevolent leadership really is doing a great job today, aren’t they?"

There's a pretty large contingent of dumb-right people lurking around especially on the heterodox, there's the Hinkle crowd. I don't understand the mind of anyone who's super into multilateral world order or BRICS content today but they are around and people are catering to them. It's a big mistake to discredit ideas simply because some dumb or cringe people are also following them IMO, ideas should be judged on their own merit.

Also could you give an example of the substacks you're talking about, there are many genres of this stuff.

Back when I got the paper every day, I'd always read the op-eds, and there were some writers I agreed with regularly, some I disagreed with regularly, and some where there was no clear tendency. The thing was, though, that I wasn't getting the paper for the op-eds, let alone one person's thrice-weekly column. Substacks are necessarily limited to the kind of people who are not only willing to seek out one columnist but pay money for a subscription to a service that provides nothing but material from that columnist, so the comments sections are going to be hopeless fanboys rather than a broad segment of the public.

Seriously, though, who pays for these things anyway? I mean, I like Matt Taibbi, but if I spent $7/month on every writer I liked as much as Taibbi I'd be shelling out hundreds just for Substack subscriptions.

To be "hundreds" there would have to be at least ~25 writers you like as much as Taibbi. Which is definitely plausible, especially if they're less prolific, but I bet that means you have good recommendations. Would you be up for sharing a list of 10 or so writers you like as much as Taibbi, with like a sentence about why you like them?

I've got nothing but good impression's of Scott's comment section. I'd comment more, but I'm intimidated by the sheer speed with which people come up with high quality comments and insightful thoughts mere minutes after a post. I confess I never really check out other Substack comments, but I have a neutral opinion from what I've seen.

When you pay $5 a month not just for a newspaper but for a specific person’s article you are very likely to develop a milder version of the sort of parasocial relationship people have with their favorite YouTuber or streamer.

I really want a pretty print magazine.

I know someone who works in niche print magazine publishing who says they do pretty well. It’s all niche fashion, literature, photography, food, travel magazines where each copy is like $20 sold through specialist stores (mostly retail), so the number of copies you need to sell is actually quite modest. Depending on where you live I’m sure there’s some hip print stores that stock them.

Interested. Could you share more on this? With like to research.

"Substack is just OnlyFans for intellectuals"?

Is there just a vast reserve of ball-washers on the internet?

Yes, and as more people get online the worse it gets. This is further magnified by negative comments increasingly getting filtered (often automatically) and positive ones getting boosted.

Its in general not in a content creator's interest to have their comment section not being positive, regardless of actual audience reaction.

It might be the worst comment section on the internet

How can you say that when YouTube exists?

Pick a song that came out earlier than this year. The top comment on that song will be "Anyone in 2025?" It's the most retarded thing ever.

That's a kind of inoffensive stupidity though. Overt obsequiousness is just unpleasant.

like, is everyone paying for fake AI comments?

I fear there’s every chance of this.

I haven’t noticed many good comment sections.

Scott Alexander (Astral Codex Ten) has a mature type of commenter, which is probably to be expected.

George Saunders (Story Club) has a very committed and engaged community, definitely more rounded than your tongue-in-cheek example.

Paul Kingsnorth (Abbey of Misrule) has a very good community who engages reliably.

Even these top 1% are often characterised by positivity towards the poster. It’s very much a leader-follower dynamic.

I haven't read a ton of ACT and even less of the comments (due to tech issues with substack comments) but are they better than the SSC blog comments? Things were getting pretty dire towards the end there.

I'd say not as good as 2014 era commentariat but better than 2019 era commentariat.

It’s been a while since I checked but in general comments there are (a) plentiful and (b) quite long. Those two put it in the top 0.001% of Substack blogs. That’s a different measure than: “are they objectively good comments?” I’m not sure there’s much on the internet that’s objectively good anymore. Enshittification effect, borne out of generalised ADHD-like behaviour created by algorithms.

I meant more in the sense of the percentage of people glazing Scott.

I understand. And you’re probably right.

I haven't really noticed that. Most of the time I just see a complete lack of comments. I think the writers are pained by that. I see some of them on discord and x, subtly or not subtly longing for more engagement. It could be that some of them go the route of paying for engagement in the same way that e.g. a restaurant can pay for fake reviews. I assume they probably figure that 'it'll get the show started, and then the real organic engagement starts and snowballs!'

Honestly, I've never posted a reply on substack as far as I can remember, but I was considering doing it one of these days, and I was gonna just straight up praise and gush... I'd be one of the ball-washers you describe. Because the blog in question is a very very good one. When I see strongly coherent and inspiring writing that speaks to me from start to finish, I'm genuinely impressed. Because it's pretty rare and not that easy to accomplish. It takes time and practice and skill to consistently write well. And to do it for several pages on end? Takes energy and commitment too.

I've never been good at writing long texts myself. I didn't really learn how to do it in school, and didn't have a supportive home environment to cultivate skills. Despite being a pretty good wordcel by nature (at least the receptive/decoding part), I wrote as little as I could get away with in school for various reasons: bad teachers, depression and anxiety, difficulty with identifying and putting feelings and thoughts into words because of alexithymia and low confidence, and so on. When I had to do it in university it was a pain and a stressful chore on which to procrastinate and agonize. It still doesn't come naturally. There's probably some critical/sensitive zones involved in the developmental psychology of a good writer. Then there's the part of self-construal: do you believe others have any interest and approval of what you might write? Would it be 'legit' in front of a public audience, etc.

Perhaps I'm not the only one who's secretly a bit worshipful of the people who quickly produce great texts without straining the shit out of their brain muscles, somewhat like how a tech-illiterate might ooh and aah at the wizardry when you press ctrl+alt+del and shut down a frozen task, heh.

You write quite well, though.

Thanks. Maybe I should practice more and see if I can speed up the process of articulation. Communication is kinda important, after all...

Complete lack of comments is probably 99% of substacks. Including mine, disappointingly. (I’m as prone to dopamine attraction as the next man…)

Somewhat esoteric court opinion:

  • In conducting Internet searches, you probably have encountered a situation where (for example) you search for "Amazon", but Ebay appears at the top of the results page (prominently marked as "sponsored"), above Amazon itself. This technique is known as "competitive keyword advertising".

  • If lawyer John Doe sets up competitive keyword advertising against fellow lawyer Jane Smith—so that, when someone searches for "jane smith lawyer", John Doe's website appears at the top of the results page (prominently marked as "sponsored"), above the website of Jane Smith herself—has John Doe violated the lawyers' code of ethics by "making false or misleading communications" or "engaging in dishonesty, fraud, deceit, or misrepresentation"? In June 2019, the state ethics committee (not the state disciplinary board, but a committee set up by the state supreme court) says the answer is "no".

  • In May 2020, the state supreme court agrees to consider the state bar association's appeal of the ethics committee's determination. In November 2020, the state supreme court remands the matter for thorough investigation under a special <del>master</del><ins>adjudicator</ins>. In June 2024, the special master finally submits a report agreeing with the ethics board that competitive keyword advertising is not a violation of the lawyers' code of ethics.

  • In May 2025, the state supreme court issues an opinion mostly agreeing with the special master's conclusion (by a vote of four to one), but adding one extra requirement: in order to prevent confusion, whenever a user clicks on an ad that uses competitive keyword advertising, the ad's landing page must explicitly state that the user has entered the website of John Doe.

Taken to its logical conclusion, the dissent's reasoning would bar commonplace advertising practices. For example, under its view, an attorney who purchases a keyword like "Newark divorce lawyer" despite maintaining an office in a nearby suburb would be engaging in deception simply because the ad appears in response to a search regarding Newark. That approach would improperly conflate strategic visibility with dishonesty, effectively discouraging attorneys from using lawful digital tools to expand access to their consumers. This form of advertising is not misleading. It is standard competitive marketing aimed at reaching a broader audience. We therefore do not reach the dissent's First Amendment analysis.

(Bonus: Using marijuana is legal under state law but illegal under federal law. The lawyers' code of ethics forbids lawyers from "criminal acts that reflect adversely on the lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness as a lawyer in other respects". Is using marijuana a violation of the code of ethics? The state ethics committee's answer is "no".)

Using marijuana is legal under state law but illegal under federal law. The lawyers' code of ethics forbids lawyers from "criminal acts that reflect adversely on the lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness as a lawyer in other respects". Is using marijuana a violation of the code of ethics? The state ethics committee's answer is "no".)

What does that mean, in practice? If you're assigned a public defender that's an obvious pothead with impaired memory, you can't say "this is completely unfair, give me a normal one"?

Quote from the opinion:

Cannabis, like alcohol, prescription medications, and certain over-the-counter drugs, can affect a lawyer’s ability to provide competent representation of clients. Lawyers may not use regulated cannabis in a manner that would impair the lawyer in the provision of legal services. It is also possible, depending on the specific nature of the representation, that personal cannabis use might create a personal interest that materially limits the lawyer’s representation of a client under Rule of Professional Conduct 1.7(a)(2), or the ability to provide independent professional judgment and render candid advice under Rule of Professional Conduct 2.1, but these would be fact-specific determinations and not per se ethical proscriptions.

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