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So much clueless discourse and blathering on here really makes me think that a lot of people here have rather interestingly false conceptions of the gap between them and an attractive man in terms of dating success. That's not to speak of the absolutely massive gap between the average man and the average woman that I think could do with some amount of rectification though the use of a couple particularly pertinent examples. In short-- the average man i.e a guy who would probably get rated a 6 or 7 by most people is virtually invisible to women online to a degree that's frankly quite horrific when you compare it to the experience of an attractive man. The average guy could probably expect to reasonably manage about 5 to 10 likes a day, probably dropping off to less than that after the first week, with maybe a couple matches a week and perhaps 1 out of 50 matches actually converting to a date and an even smaller proportion converting to anything more significant than that. That doesn't sound too bad, right?
The thing is, an attractive man isn't just getting say 10% more matches, or even just doubling their matches. The amount of attention they get from women usually dwarfs the average male by several orders of magnitude. The top profiles on Tinder, Hinge, Bumble, are maxing out the like counter in give or take under an hour, the rungs below that with ease in under a day and so on and so forth. There are plenty of men who are not rich, not famous, not exceptional in any way really other than the face God gave them and perhaps the muscles Trenbolone gave them (though if you're thinking steroids alone will make you one of these men, you're living in a world of delusion-- women want the complete package) breaking 20,000 matches in relatively modest sized metro areas like Copenhagen, Stockholm or Denver. I should probably note that these profiles are typically white men though, as funnily enough even here racial gaps manifest, though this is frankly a matter of degrees, as even these disadvantaged attractive men of color are usually not lacking for women-- but it's going to be generally significantly less attractive and desirable women and they'll have to be a point or two better than their white counterpart to compete. These men have such an abundance of choice and easy access to women that they effectively dwell in a completely separate reality when compared to the average man-- they are the pickers and choosers and have no desperate need to compromise or settle down with one woman. Think of the gap between a man with 70 IQ and a man with 160 IQ in terms of capacity for intellectual output and perhaps multiply that gap a few times and you'll have a somewhat decent grasp of the dynamic in play here.
No amount of game or self improvement will ever get you close to that if you lack the genetic basis for it. It's like thinking a 70 IQ man can become a world class physicist and win the Nobel prize if he just tried hard enough-- the world doesn't work that way.
It's well known that attractive women have their pick of the litter, but I'll just add in that a woman need not be particularly attractive to be bombarded with options. The average girl you see on the street could open any dating app and find literal thousands of men throwing themselves at her within a day, maybe two or three if she's a bit ungifted in the face. Though as with attractive men, there's a pretty big gap between the kinds and amount of attention that white women get, and every other race of woman, including Asian women (of the northeastern and southern varieties) and having blue or green eyes supercharges this a surprising amount.
Here's an album of proof
Good news (ish). While it's possible for such Chads to make a good crack at saturating the demand for casual sex, they're far more constrained when it comes to fulfilling the very real demand for steady relationships. Maybe they can juggle 4-6 women at once by operating in a gray zone or being noncommital, but it only goes so far.
Yeah, the actual “average” guys I know are doing just fine when it comes to finding a steady long term relationship, even if they might have issues with casual sex. It’s the high IQ, terminally online, borderline autistic guys that tend to struggle with both, and they often tend to get stuck in cognitive black holes.
I agree wholeheartedly, albeit in 2 entirely different countries.
Casual sex is a luxury. And that's been true for the entirety of human history. Short of prostitution, courting a partner/paying the bride price was the only way to get your willie wet for the overwhelming majority of men.
The fact that norms have changed, and a small fraction of men are able to avail of it.. Well, that naturally emboldens everyone else. Yet, a longer relationship (that includes sex) is both easier to achieve for the average man, and often more fulfilling. But everyone dreams of driving a Lambo on a Lada budget, and here 'tis the same.
"
Casualsex is a luxury. And that's been true for the entirety of human history. "Indeed. The issue, however, is that progressive maxims generally proclaim inequality is bad and that luxury should be distributed more equally. Yet women are the supreme luxury for men, and their distribution remains highly unequal despite being obviously more important than wealth for male well-being.
I don't care very much if I have twenty thousand dollars more or less, but I'd exchange a significant chunk of my fortune for success with women, and an even bigger chunk to keep the love of my life that came and went last year. What man wouldn't make that trade? The simple truth is that failing to attract women (or a least a woman) makes the average dude's life much, much worse in a way that doesn't seem to be true for women in the corresponding situation. Between the choice of accepting this gigantic inequality as inevitable and denying it exists, it's no surprise many pick the latter option.
Speaking more broadly, I honestly think a big part of the current malaise of the West is caused by the relationship and sex recession. It's difficult to find cultural meaning when you can't get find a girl or at least get laid every now and again, and civilization decline seems to be what no pussy does to a mf.
The recession in turn is caused by many trends, but chief among them in my book are 1) women gaining ever more status and wealth and being generally hypergamous, 2) women using their voting power to tax men so that the state indirectly provides much of that which individual men used to give them, and 3) dating apps rigging the game to the disadvantage of most men.
This trend, coupled with increased tokophobia due to the internet making it easy to research pregnancy and childbirth, leads straight to a sudden and sharp demographic decline. This then runs the real risk of creating an unbreakable demographic death spiral in the entire West (since less children means downsizing of schools, a bigger burden for the coming generation, et cetera, which in turn makes children both more difficult and less enticing). Climate change might be annoying, but demography is the real threat looming over us. The Shadow of sexlessness has fallen over Middle-Earth, and it is hard to see how it might be vanquished. But it's still too early to give up hope, and maybe there'll come a change for the better soon.
Once again, I add here at the end, the foresight of Kipling makes fools of us all:
"On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."
And weight
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I'd have assumed most men throughout history have had access to prostitutes.
The idea that the majority of women of good character and upbringing could have premarital sex with men with the public being aware without devastating repercussions on her future is less than a century old.
Notably, most self-proclaimed incels react quite negatively to the idea that they could get around their anguish by paying someone for a quick fuck. They have a point, since a steady relationship is very different from being a john. Casual sex without money explicitly changing hands is one of the greatest/sincerest forms of validation a man can have, it means that they're so intrinsically desirable that there's no need for any of that.
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Nope.
High IQ, terminally online, borderline autistic guys were probably just the first to notice.
That link doesn’t work btw.
For all the men I know who are perpetually single, it’s pretty obvious why they’re that way, whether it’s from an off-putting personality, impossible requirements, or just plain never leaving the house. I don’t know a single one of these mythical average nice guys that somehow can’t get a girlfriend despite their best efforts.
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Even this assumes a certain amount of stupidity or desperation among all of the women involved. If you want to keep up the pretense of dating someone, you have to at least make an attempt at seeing them a minimum of once a week, and unless you're in a committed relationship, you have to actually date them; that means that inviting them over to your house so they can hang out while you do whatever it is that you normally do on a Tuesday night doesn't count. Simultaneously stringing along 4–6 women thus means committing the bulk of your free time to dating, which seems horrible and expensive. It also means that there's some additional deception being pulled here—in addition to having to pretend you aren't dating four other women, you have to pretend that you have an active social life that keeps you from seeing them. So now if you do decide that one of these girls is the one, she's quickly going to find out that no, you don't ride bikes on Wednesday nights or go to the book club Thursday nights or bowl in a league on Friday nights or have dinner with your family on Sunday nights and even if she doesn't suspect that you were lying because there were other women, the image of yourself that you sold her on will be revealed as a sham, and you're likely to end up with zero women in the end.
in a small village, maybe. In large cities the hypothetical hypothetical would get new ones quickly.
I didn't mean zero women in the grand scheme of things, I meant zero women among the 4 or 5 you're trying to simultaneously date.
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The problem is tons of women are happy to believe they should be able to marry someone like the pool of guys they've slept with throughout their most attractive dating years.
The majority get the hint eventually. Some have too much pride to accept that they're going to have to settle, but most women I know eventually figure out that soulful men with sixpacks and a guitar aren't strictly necessary for a fulfilling partner.
Of course, (attractive) men do have it easier. A 40 year old man has far more prospects than a 40 year old woman, and can compensate for age and waning looks with things like money and prestige. Those hold far less value for women.
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Here's a genuine question, because I do think men and women have different attitudes to sex, relationships, love, the whole package (e.g. the stereotypical excuse of the cheating husband when caught "it was only sex, I really love you, honey!")
Average guy on here, if you had fifty women throwing themselves at you, would you pick the top ten most attractive ones or would you sleep with all fifty?
I'm asking because I see a certain amount of resentment in comments (not necessarily on here) about women being too picky and they get loads of matches on dating apps and they only reply to the most desirable ones. Well, if you had a selection of possible sexual/romantic partners vying for your attention, would you reply to Number Fifty on the list as well as Number One, or would you just select out Numbers One Through Ten of the ones you personally find hottest and ignore the rest?
I'm not trying to gotcha anyone or point fingers, I'm honestly curious.
This is the plot of basically every harem anime out there, or at least the plot of every harem anime made after the realistic social, legal, religious, and economic constrains that forced the protagonist to choose a single girl to wed gave way to the pure wish-fulfillment fantasy of polygamy. And the revealed preference of men is, overwhelmingly, to keep them all.
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Operating under the assumption that all 50 are somehow equally interested in me for some inexplicable reason, I'd work on narrowing them down to find the one that's most compatible with me in terms of personality, outlook and life goals.
And then marry her.
This assumes that I'm actually aware of your theoretical scenario. Otherwise, I'd probably come to the conclusion that they're just being nice, and nothing would come from it.
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This was basically my experience of the summer of 2010, I went from being invisible and unable to get a date, to having the attention of several girls in the space of about a month. Not fifty, but five or so was more than I could handle at 18. So I can tell you from direct knowledge: I would try to have it every way, be seized with indecision as a result of the abundance, fail to commit to any one choice, piss them all off a little bit when they figured it out, and like Baridan's ass starving in the midst of plenty eventually fumble the whole lot of them. I would behave with mild immorality, while using vague language and a personal sense that I'm a "nice guy" to assuage my guilt about clearly not giving any of the women what they actually want. I would date or make love to as many of them as practical, rising to my Level of Incompetence and eventually screwing up the whole thing.
Luckily I'd learn something useful for the next set of fifty.
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Top ten. Even if I'd want to sleep with all fifty women, to sleep with one each day would take almost two months, and also involves losing every evening to womanising. And that's assuming every single one would put out on the first date. Even libidinous 20-year-old Crowstep would find that tiring.
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Answering as my younger self, i'd probably do some initial sort to eliminate ones with some particularly off-putting personality trait or very gross physical features that would mean the baseline amount of sexual attraction just wouldn't be there. Above the minimum physical attraction threshold, basically not at all concerned with trying to pick the "hottest" as then it's more important to find both a personality, philosophly/values, and commitment match.
I may be highly unrepresentative, but I would sleep with precisely zero of them before getting to know them and, at a minimum, not suspecting or knowing they weren't marriage material. Sleeping with someone I would not consider a potential serious long-term partner seems actively repellant, and I strongly dislike other men who have a significantly different outlook on relationships and women.
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Ten? Hell, I'm trying to juggle five right now and that's only because of a combination of luck and poor judgment on my part. 50 is almost inconceivable. Even if it's clear to both parties from the start that this is only going to be a hookup with zero possibility of a second date, you're still looking at nearly two months of stringing number 50 along before you get to her, and that's assuming you're available every day with no other obligations. In my experience, if you're going to ask a girl out on the apps you'd better do it within the first week or so, depending on message frequency, or they're going to think you're just stringing them along and stop responding. You have a better chance of success if you try to cultivate 2 or 3 at once than if you try to spread the limited amount of time that you have too thin.
Yep.
Dating apps have made everyone so flighty that the OPTIMAL strategy is to try to have like 3-5 on the line at any given time, as most won't even lead to a date, so you run up the numbers as best you can.
But if you get a string of luck (if you're a dude) and actually GET 3 women to go on dates... suddenly your incentive changes to keep this bounty going and drag that out as long as possible.
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I think women are dynamic enough that you keep pursuing as many women as you can reasonably allocate the time to do so.
The 10 most attractive in other words may be bad lays (way common than you'd think), annoying, etc. The probability that the best overall woman is in the "Bottom" 40 is high. It's your minor league farm team.
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Answering from the perspective of my younger and more ignorant self…
I would start by dividing the women up into those above my “bar” of attractiveness and those below. Harsh, but that’s basically how it works. With that done, I’d attempt to engage with every woman above the bar. However, I’d very quickly realize this was much more difficult than I thought, because (youthful lechery aside) I do like women and don’t really enjoy making them feel bad by brushing them off etc. At that point, I’d start trimming numbers until I got a manageable amount, prioritizing attractiveness. But then, as the warm feeling of approval started wearing off, I’d start being more picky again, mostly on the basis of personality. (Any man who says personality has nothing to do with how attractive a woman is either has no experience with them or is totally disconnected from the women he fucks.) Specifically, pleasant, caring, and engaging women will make the cut, while mean, erratic, and dull ones will fall out. And eventually I will realize that more than one is nothing but trouble and just go for the best one.
The number isn’t 50, and it wasn’t like I had an absolute pick of the litter, but this is a somewhat accurate if abstract story of my dating life (minus all the women I tried dating solo before learning what real standards I had).
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I can tell you what I hope and pray I'd do, but I don't know if asking a bunch of wallflowers a question about getting attention like this will yield a realistic answer.
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You're talking to an Indian living in Europe, trying to dodge a marriage arranged by his auntie. If there's anyone here playing on hard mode, it's him... Well, on the other hand he is a doctor... Ok, so I don't know exactly what all that calculus comes down to, but if he's able to maintain some optimism, I think he's worth hearing out.
That was a year back, and fortunately said aunt managed to get the hint eventually.
I am still unclear on the difficulty setting on the British server, so to speak. I spent the past year in a steady but unexciting relationship with a girl over in Scotland, which ended amicably. So I wasn't really on the dating market, and had maybe 2 MILFs and 2 young and cute co-workers hit on me or evince interest. My lifestyle has been work and wasting away at home, with the majority of the incidents mentioned happening when I'd ventured out to the nearest pub. In previous discussions, I had accepted that being an Indian guy makes dating in the West an uphill struggle, so that's far from the worst.
In India? No issues really. I just had my best friend's girlfriend try to hitch me up with her cousin. Too many issues for me to go that way, but I'm confident that I could end up married in a few months or at most a year if I wanted to be. I've just given myself a few more years of potential runway because I think finding the love of my life is worth the effort.
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