This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I've spoken previously about possible solutions to the current masculinity & dating crisis. But another overlooked part of the conversation is the role race plays in dating and sexual selection. I think to fix this problem, we may have to tailor policy towards each individual race, based on their unique circumstances within the country. I'd like to start with the race that is having the most trouble with this: black people.
A Profile of Single Americans
According to pew research, about a little less than half of black people are single. That is about 68% more than other racial groups. It's also no secret that black people are more likely to have children out of wedlock, less likely to marry, and are more likely to divorce. A big chunk of this is because there is a shortage of eligible men (& women).
Whats the problem with black men?
There are..... a lot.
First and foremost, black men are less likely to attend and complete college. This not only makes them less attractive mates in terms of status, but also in terms of resources (those with a degree make more than those without). They are more likely to be incarcerated ,unemployed, and/or dead. Not good. On top of all of that, they are more likely to be the perpetrators of domestic violence and rape. They aren't great partners in the grand scheme of things.
Whats the problem with black women
Black women do, like women in general, prefer a mate that is high in status and with a good resource pool. They are completing college at a higher rate and also are more likely to be employed. But they also have issues, mainly:
They are more likely to be obese/overwieght.
They are more likely to have multi partner fertility.
I also wouldnt be surprised if many of these women were "less feminine" than their non-black counterparts, particularly because black women are in a more violent and aggressive environment, that demands more masculine behavior as a matter of survival. This is more of a hunch than something I have direct evidence for.
Solutions?
For black men in particular, there needs to be a re-imaging of black masculinity. Black Men tend to see themselves as more masculine. I'm gonna argue here that this perception is largely harmful to themselves and to the community at large. Especially with black men, the whole manly man with a huge bbc stereotype is incredibly culturally pervasive. Everyone thinks of a black man as a athlete or rapper, instead of a scientist or a physician. There are no black pretty boys (EDIT: well, there were RnB stars but they have fallen out of favor recently), like we see with asians. I suspect much of this is because of the toxic environment that was created via the war on drugs & the familial breakdown following the sexual revolution.
The first step really should be trying to have mentors setup via government interference, particularly for black men. Their ought to be more skills to black masculinity besides "guy with huge dick and a Glock with a gold chain". Programs helping the community become more wealthy would contribute to this change in masculinity, as it would give less reasons to be toxically masculine. Have them do ballet, painting, and heavily emphasize soft and social skills. This should be done in combination with rugged stereotypically masculine activities such as wrestling or football. Good men have strong elements of masculinity, with some healthy doses of feminine attributes on the side!
Education needs to be emphasized, even if its not college. As the knowledge economy grows, the labor market demands those with social and technical skills. I'm not just talking about college, if they cant or wont go, fine. But there needs to be something after high school, with a job that is decently paying lined up shortly.
This next one isn't one I'm personally endorsing, but depending on whether or not someone is a racial nationalist. You might want to encourage black men to date within there own race, as they are more likely to date outside. Assuming we make black women more desirable, this may fall by the wayside on its own.
Ok, so what about black women?
The first step with black women is to get them on some kind of glp-1 (honestly, this should just be done for both sexes, but lets face it, looks are more heavily emphasized for women, and black women in particular are more likely to be overweight). Women get more options and attention the more physically attractive they are, and its healthier to be skinnier anyway, so this is a no brainer.
Also, the culture around birth control is more conspiratorial than what is warranted. Put an IUD in, and be slow with putting out. Black women are less likely to use birth control. I'd like to see that changed.
I'd also like to see young black girls engaged in girl groups (such as girl scouts, for example) to sharpen feminine attributes and personality more in black women.
Gender Neutral Policies
Another step that needs to be emphasized is what a healthy relationship actually looks like, and how to select a dude who will give you a healthy relationship. I have an intuition that this skill, particularly with black women, is somewhat lacking, hence high multi-partner fertility (Note: what drives multi-partner fertility is relationship breakdown, not just promiscuity). Show young girls how men are suppose to treat you, what they are suppose to do, and how the courting process is suppose to work. Many women have seen way too many bad examples of this. They need to be shown good examples. The same works vice-versa: Young boys and men need to be good boyfriends, and have examples of what that looks like.
Social media needs to be targeted here. Screen time at a young age extremely limited. Kids need to play outside, with other children to learn social skills. Relationships are a lot harder to build if you are socially retarded.
Lastly, I'm probably gonna get some people here arguing about how much of this is genetic vs not. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just argue that these policies are good in their own right. Even if 70% of the black race couldn't be saved for whatever reason, if we are able to turn the tides for the other 30% that can be, then I'll consider that a job well done.
Wait is no one else immediately convinced that this is obviously a troll?
I mean.... I posted other stuff like this before, if you think that this post is bad, your welcome to point out why.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You can't even offer white boys that! But I agree that, of everything else you've said, that "path to early and stable-enough success" is something that, if you want men to function properly, you need to offer. Early buy-in and rewards for following the system we've set out is ultimately what makes people adopt its values; that's why Boomers still think you can get a job with a resume and a firm handshake, after all.
No, it's genetic. You literally bury the lede in the first part of the sentence then deny it.
Further,
if you're going to go HBD you might as well go all the way. The place they come from is a more violent and aggressive environment and has been for quite some time. Asians (including the natives of North America) had less of that; if having 2000 years of the modern bureaucratic state doesn't convince you of this, then nothing will. The most violent of those groups were living in an area that didn't lend itself quite as well to this- is there any nation the Japanese hadn't gone to war with?
What makes you say that? Having a huge dick and a gold chain on my Glock is pretty awesome, actually.[0] It makes reloading harder but that's just the price you pay for fashion.
That's not really what Girl Scouts do, and from what I can see black women are very and completely uninterested in femininity that isn't [for lack of a better word] hostile. Part of that's just how they look- there's a particular variety of white woman (compare 'gyaru') who make themselves up like black women specifically to evoke that hostility- but a lot of it is the accent that inherently sounds like sass/will track as a disrespectful tone to anyone who isn't black. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from.
If you want an example of this, go watch a season of the Cosby show; Claire turns this off and on when/as convenient, but the kid characters run it full blast all the time.
(Interestingly, the same is not as true of the men. Watching them trying to turn it down to fit in is strange too.)
Perhaps it's simply a reaction to the [evolved?] need to control men who are themselves predisposed to a more extreme form of masculinity? Explains a lot about the "sleep with them early to secure a mate" thing, because that's [part of] how women force commitment from men... but because the abolition of racism as government policy coincides with the sexual revolution/abolition of sexism as government policy, the women are depending on male relatives to make sure that commitment occurs and it can't.
Well, unless the men do what is natural to them and use the unofficial state-condemned violence to force it... which is the thing you think is the problem with them. Go figure.
[0] I do always enjoy being able to post this on-topic. I will point out, that as patently absurd as this is (and whether the people participating in it are aware of that or not is irrelevant), most of it sounds exactly like what 19th century Americans understood masculinity to be (mostly thinking of dueling here but the fact that was even a thing to begin with suggests a more... offensive and proud form of masculinity as standard). And I'm not even entirely sure they are wrong considering what happened once we moved away from that.
More options
Context Copy link
According to conservatives on radio it is Great Society welfare policies that destroyed black American marriage rates. There are old articles asserting such. The government subsidized and incentivized single motherhood and certainly got a lot of black single moms.
I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed. But I'm not convinced that this is the main reason for what happened.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I agree with the cultural shift required in the black community more or less. But that's not really something anyone outside the community can make happen. I hope it happens, but there ain't much for anyone else to do.
As to greater black participation in college, I think that's a losing game and people need to forget that path as a means of uplifting the poorer parts of the black community. Whatever IQ predicts, it predicts academic achievement. You are not going to get the poorest and dumbest third of black people through any college degree worthy of the name. It is not going to fucking happen, and if that's your plan to help black people, you don't want to help black people.
Better norms about violence, honor, work and family would be great, but as I said, not really much for everyone else to do about that.
It is time to end the discrimination based on college degree, which would do more for the black community than trying to bootstrap 75 IQ hoodrats through a college course.
More options
Context Copy link
This is not a problem for black men. Men of any race benefit from masculinity in any event or situation where they are not
cuckedsissy hypno'dhumiliation ritual'dinvited into the realm of feminine dominated status politics. Sexual competition favors masculinity for men. Evolutionary psychology points to dominant masculine males as the most desirable people to mate with. Women and gay men (such as myself) are programmed from millennia of sexual competition and successful fertility and resource scarcity to seek the best mates they can.You go on to propose that black men should be encouraged to be less masculine, basically. In other words you are trying to bring him down to a level where you can compete with him as you are a non-black man. It doesn't work, it is ridiculous, it all falls apart the second you hit the real world. The black man "studying ballet and in education" is cringe but still more masculine than the white man "studying ballet and in education" and yet more masculine than the Asian man "studying ballet and in education." The ballet and reeducation is going to solve nothing but be a ridiculous charade. At the end you can point to the black harvard educated ballerina and say, ah good, he got the girl because he played the game on my white bourgeois terms: in elegance and sophistication and education, and now I don't have to rip apart my entire worldview where I believe men should be chosen based on their elegance and sophistication and education, rather than submit to the stark reality that women choose mates based on primal instinct of masculinity and dominance and physical power which you or the less dominant man knows he can't compete at and win.
Much of sex and race relations are totally conflated due to the dual-variable situation. Basically, the races of people who have more desirable masculine traits are the opposite stack from the races of people who have more desirable feminine traits. Black men are more masculine and dominant than white men who are more masculine and dominant than latino and asian men. Asian and latino women are more feminine and attractive than white women who are more feminine and attractive than black women. This is why so much of modern day US race relations are so broken: Polite society is dominated by women's concerns, and white women are more attractive than black women, and in a feminine twist of slave morality (or christian love, or judeo-christian David vs. Goliath ethics) women get to forever place the lives and souls of Black people above their own because it doesn't actually ever interfere with how they as white women are hotter than black women, and get to simultaneously reap the benefits of socially accepted dominant (black) male mate selection and humiliation of the inferior emasculated white or asian man.
The fact that white or Asian men come up with the solution you propose, over and over again, leads only to their humiliation and constant misunderstanding of what a woman wants from them. The answer isn't to bring the more dominant men into the same humiliation rituals they are burdened with, it is to avoid having to compete with more dominant males to begin with.
I suspect Black women are less feminine than their non-black counterparts because every Black women I've ever met is more masculine than I am (as a white male.) White men will never admit this but let's go through some observations. In sexual dimorphism within the same ethnicity, women tend to have lighter skin than men. So a Black woman is already starting from a distance and at a glance to have a more masculine presentation than any man who isn't darker than she is. In the extremes, of course, there are cute and feminine Black women like Duckie Thot who I think is very cute but she is at the far end of the bell curve in terms of neoteny and half of her female relatives are probably more butch than your average white or Latino or Asian man.
IMO there is a great dignity in ethnostates that doesn't exist in diverse settings. In Japan, there is a great diversity of people in a positive way. Your construction worker is Japanese, your lawyer is Japanese, your doctor is Japanese, your priest is Japanese, your emperor and your empress and your prime minister are all Japanese. There is phenotypical diversity in Japan, yes, but culturally, everyone is Japanese, and there is a dignity in that you know the place you end up in society is a product of your own work and your own ability. In America, your construction workers are Mexican, your lawyer is a WASP or a Jew, your doctor is Nigerian, your priest is Italian, your president is half nigerian or part cheetoh or whatever. What of the Mexicans who want to be a lawyer and not a construction worker? The Jew who would be happiest laying bricks? We have a great illusion of choice but once you notice the specialization of race linked to profession it's a bit sad.
Again there actually are black pretty boys. Usher is pretty. There are Black ladyboys and Black trans women and Black cross dressers and anything else you can imagine. Your insistence that there are no black pretty boys is an artifact of your judgment of Black people by white or nonblack standards. Black men can point at Usher or other pretty black men and say those are the pretty ones. If you are white and can't imagine Black men being pretty it's because you can't step outside of your viewpoint in your judgment compared with them which is the sexual selective competition problem I'm trying to illustrate. To contrast and reinforce the point, of course you mention asian "pretty boys" because if you're outside of the Asian community then nearly all Asian men are to the "pretty" side of things compared with you.
So I think the problem is women need to stop desiring dominance or rather they need to stop putting themselves in positions that require dominant positions. I have a friend who happens to be an obese Black woman. I have experience with weight loss so she sometimes asks me for advice about it. One time she confided in me that she had been thinner in the past, but that she was "afraid people would beat her up." This is a real fear, and is also consistent with needing to have a bit of weight to throw around to assert dominance. In the past 10 years I have weighed 300 and I have weighed 190 lb and from experience, at 300 people are much less likely to mess with you than at 190. Women, especially those who live in an urban environment, are put in positions where they feel they need to dominate things physically. Nomadic women in Mongolia or city girls in China- or even rural/nonurban northern European women, despite what the immigration doomers will have you believe, have no such social threats that they find themselves needing to become obese to assert domination. Women and poor people are not going to start dropping weight en masse until everyone does as it's a sort of cold war (american obesity skyrocketed at the same time that racial integration became more ubiquitous.)
This attitude is so arrogant to me, people do what they're programmed to do, why are you trying to socially engineer their behavior to begin with? She can choose the more sexy masculine dominant male over the really sweet guy, the problem isn't her, the really sweet guy if he's such a great partner needs to man up and express his masculinity in addition to his ability to take care of his mate and offspring at the same time. If someone whose brain is designed to opt for a masculine dominant mate who are you to encourage her to go against her millennia of programming in favor of you and your preferences, the less dominant male? What's in it for anyone but you?
Um, Im not? This is largely in their interests. Black mens variation of masculinity does have an element of clear toxicity, driven by historical, societal circumstances, and governmental policy (and maybe we'll say here that HBD might be playing a role, but I'd like to focus on what we can control here). This clearly doesn't make them very attractive mates, a la them being more likely to be single. It actively damages their relationships.
Women find both masculine and "feminine" qualities attractive in men. Again, no ones arguing against being manly, I'm merely arguing for a slight tweak in masculinity to include some of these softer elements, that would aid in keeping a mate in the long term. If you insist on a slightly manlier variation of this, the comic-book hero Superman fits the bill fairly well.
We shouldnt be overstating womens preference for masculinity. Yes, women are looking for elements of masculinity when selecting mates, but the man in questions cant be too masculine, because that risks turning the strength aggression on her and the children.
I actually stand corrected! Excellent. For the record I actually forgot about Usher and RnB black men existed for a second (& sadly, we don't see them that much in the mainstream anymore). I'd like to see more!
This is counter-productive in almost all cases. A fit in shape person is gonna give a fat-ass an proper ass-whooping 99% of the time. Size matters to a point, but there is a distinction between sumo wrestler 200lbs, & Brock Lesnar 200lbs. But sure, inner city violence incentivizes masculint behaviour, fair enough. Solution? Crack down & lock them up.
Again, this is a false dichotomy. The goal is for our sweet guy to have both traits, that's basically the whole point of this post. I care for the black community, and I'd like to see them succeed. Having children "raised" by pookey and ray ray is counter productive to this end goal. Do I need emphasize that women aren't only attracted to just the hyper-manly health inspector?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Maybe a good first step would be cutting SNAP benefits and forcing people to enter the labor market. A big issue we is a lack of manufacturing jobs anymore mainly due to productivity. People would be forced into restaurant work etc instead of no work but it would become socially acceptable
More options
Context Copy link
Or, instead of some convoluted social engineering attempt, US GOs/NGOs can provide one-time stipends to black girls and young black women for getting their tubes tied so they can... pursue further education and career aspirations without the tyranny of motherhood, to close the socioeconomic gaps and stuff. The issues related to 12% of the population committing 56% of homicides can solve themselves from there.
More options
Context Copy link
You can be ruggedly masculine and kind and gentle and loyal to women(or, as we would like to encourage, one woman). The black idea of rugged masculinity doesn't happen to line up with that, of course, but it's not like ideas that do line up with that have never existed. Chivalry is pretty clearly an example, for example- knights were supposed to be good at fighting first and foremost, and treat women well, and spend their free time hunting, and the courtly graces were often things very directly relevant to being a knight(the dancing that they're expected to do originated as practicing footwork for swordsmanship).
More options
Context Copy link
This seems like it could backfire considerably. Why not just take whatever resources we would use to fund this and instead promote manly-man masculinity, by which we mean a stint in the armed services followed by a wholesome career as a firefighter or police officer?
This is also considerably more useful to society than teaching people ballet.
The point of teaching ballet and other soft activities, particularly for black men, is to tone down the manly man stereotype that is so commonly associated with them. I'd like for them to realize that you can be more than just a thug. But going beyond this, I think there is a case to be made that men need an element of creativity and softness to aid in their navigation of relationships with women, and with others within society, and that this can coincide with masculinity. The pretty boy archetype comes to mind here. Ideally, we get mostly masculine men, with a dash of sweetness and softness. Kinda like these guys.
When presented with the alternative of "ballet performer (non-remunerative)" it would hardly be surprising if guys (regardless of race) chose "thug."
I'm also skeptical of your case (though I haven't heard it yet). I think creativity and softness can help with women, but I can't help but think you're barking up the wrong tree: as far as I can tell women are, generally, into pretty masculine men. Relevant both to my suggestion and to the question of "what do chicks dig?" military service members are more likely to be married, not less, than civilians.
It would blow your mind if you could even imagine the quantity and quality of pussy straight male ballet dancers get (yeah, all five of them). But men actually aren't just motivated by that - intrasexual esteem is much more psychologically important than getting laid.
Hilariously, while drumming up my earlier reply to Nerd, I had done a quick Google and BAM!
There are some really funny ways to reconcile what you're saying and the first page Google result (people forget that married couples have more and often better sex than single individuals) but none of them sound particularly worth the hassle.
Not that I am trying to dunk on male ballet dancers, but I wouldn't go into the profession purely for the sexual opportunity.
It seems pretty obvious that men constantly surrounded by extremely fit, attractive women who don't spend all that much time around guys (because they're forced into obsessing over their dance) have difficulty staying faithful. But yes, it's not better than marriage - until she starts getting a little long in the tooth and the new ballerina is looking at you all starry-eyed. The same thing for bartenders and massage therapists, of course, just with a more variable field of play.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Survivorship bias, assuming one accepts the premise.
Men can subconsciously or consciously, detect occupations like being a male ballet dancer is a tournament profession with a substandard EV, with an even more ambiguous feedback cycle than giving it a go at say, becoming a professional athlete.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I mean, yeah, but I'm not really denying this. My point here is that, black men in particular are hyper masculine to a substantially detrimental degree. They feel the need to do dumb shit like this. I think, with the correct social policy and guidance, they can become the men i linked previously. Yeah, pretty soft guys, but you can hardly say they arent masculine either.
People have been trying to present alternative-ideal role-models for masculinity for decades with nothing to show for it apart from softbois and performative males in the white population.
The Cosby Show didn't fix black guys, nor did all of Will Smith's oscar-bait drama films, and I don't think Tyler Perry has made much of an impact either. Even the determined black scholar archetype has become a racial-grievance-monger.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Military service members having a guaranteed income that massively increases upon marriage seems pretty directly relevant to the marriage question, especially given their female class peers' poor economic prospects.
Agreed, and I while I don't think waving one's hand and saying "jobs programs" is particularly likely to suddenly solve marriage rates, I do think jobs program education is more likely to have a positive effect than art sensitivity programs.
To be clear, being able to pull off the art museum as a date idea is very very good for your love life if you are a man. But at the end of the day, yes, a man's marriageability is mostly defined in economic terms- not always cash based, but economic.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link