This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
'I can't breath' - The murder of Henry Nowak
Recently a story that was bouncing around right-wing circles on Twitter has broken through to the front pages. Henry Nowak, an eighteen year old white (Polish) man was murdered in the UK by Vikrum Digwa, a Sikh, with his ceremonial blade (a Shastar). When police arrived, Henry was on the floor telling police that he had been stabbed (four times) and that he couldn't breathe (nine times). However, the police ignored Henry's pleas and instead believed the story concocted by Vikrum and his brother, that Henry was a drunk racist who had attacked an innocent brown man.
In a chilling exchange, a policeman responds to Henry's plea that he has been stabbed with 'Don't think you have mate', before dragging him across the gravel and handcuffing him. A policewoman agrees with Vikrum's brother that he hasn't been stabbed, saying 'I know, but we should probably check'. By the time they realise the truth and try to administer first aid, it is too late. Henry died knowing that the people who should have come to save him, instead believed his murderer.
Some other details:
Comparisons are rightly being drawn to the killing of George Floyd. Nigel Farage has demanded 'white hot rage' and has in turn been accused by MPs of inciting violence (there have been riots outside the local police station). The Police Minister has denied that Britain has two-tier policing, while also condemning police guidance that seems to mandate it.
The Independent Office for Police Conduct is investigating the local police force, and one of the arresting officers has already resigned. We'll see if anything comes of these investigations, although the most likely outcome in my opinion will be just the usual 'lessons will be learned'. Police currently working for the constabulary speak of a climate where an accusation of racism can ruin careers, and where staff are trained to always take the side of racial minority complainants, so it'll be interesting to see if the IOPC investigation finds this to be the case.
The 'two tier justice' claim seems to be cutting through with the public, and clearly rattles the government. One can hope that Henry's death leads to less antiracism training, affirmative action and race action plans, but we'll see.
I don't think we can say these comparisons are right. In the George Floyd killing, it was the police who were responsible. In this killing, it was a civilian. Now did the police get the situation utterly wrong? Absolutely. But this is quite different from the police actually killing Nowak.
They took a person bleeding out and forced him into cuffs (not good for bleeding) and denied him medical treatment.
They mocked him as he breathed out his last words.
That's negligent manslaughter, at best.
Why try to down play it?
More options
Context Copy link
Does anyone really not know that Floyd was more than twice the blood level of fentanyl that can be saved with Narcan? He was absolutely in an irreversible overdose. And he DID the crime he was being accused of. Several in fact.
More options
Context Copy link
Not really, this is blatant incompetence and racism resulting in a death. I don't see the difference.
He was a goner regardless even if the police had done everything right, his stab wound from before the police arrived was already lethal.
He was alive when the police got there.
EMTs would be able to declare him too far or dead (even with their medical training) and would have a duty to act.
Why do you think you know what would have happened?
Why try so hard to downplay this?
Despite fleeing Pakistan to go work in finance and conspicuously not contribute his big brain to Pakistan, Burdensomecount is intensely parochial regarding his Pakistani countrymen and their Indian siblings
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
There is something about the situation that is horrifying.
Imagine two outcomes:
Outcome 1: The police arrive, notice that Nowak is not doing well, make him comfortable while they call an ambulance. He spends his final moments watching the second policeman have stern words with his murderer while the policewoman holds his hands as the world goes dark. He dies knowing that justice will be done and that he's not alone.
Outcome 2: What actually happened. Dies in an uncomfortable position being accused of a crime he didn't commit, while his murderer appears to get away with it. This seems to objectively be a worse fate, the suffering in Outcome 2 is much higher than in Outcome 1.
Now do we care about the suffering of the dying? It's not like they'll be around to complain about it! But I think that yes, most humans do care about the suffering of the dying. And it does seem the police's actions increased his suffering.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
They underestimated how badly he was stabbed, just as in the Floyd "killing" the police underestimated how fented up Floyd was. Seems pretty close to me. Different motivation, same deal.
More options
Context Copy link
That's a point very much in contention. Floyd responded to his arrest by swallowing a bunch of drugs to avoid possession charges. His tox screen showed more than enough fent to kill a man. He actually had a nearly identical situation 13 months prior, where he was arrested for being a general lowlife criminal, swallowed all his drugs, ODed and nearly died, but in that instance the ambulance arrived in 4 minutes instead of 9 and he was revived.
It is not in contention. Multiple autopsies confirmed George Floyd's death was caused by homicide. A court found the police officer who sat on his neck guilty of second degree murder. You clearly do not like the man, but that doesn't change the facts.
I don’t believe this is in contention anymore, but I come from the other side. The data looks very clear it was 90% an OD with Chauvin being negligent in realizing he was ODing and providing health care.
So Yes I agree with you this is not in contention. It was just an OD.
More options
Context Copy link
That is in contention. I hold it in contention. Minneapolis juries aren't valid.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes a jury with an activist who lied to get on and a jury who knew if they gave the “wrong” verdict their town would be destroyed and their lives at risk. After all Congresswomen showed up to make that point. It was for all intents and purposes a show trial.
More options
Context Copy link
Ultimately, I don't know what best practice for maximizing a fentanyl-overdose patient's chances of survival looks like, but I would be very surprised if it looks like pinning him down in a chokehold, any more than best practice for a stab victim is to try to handcuff him. Whether Floyd died from physical choking or as a result of the drugs he'd ingested doesn't let Chauvin off the moral hook; in Floyd's as in Nowak's case, it would still leave us with officers who wasted time "restraining" an already-dying man instead of trying to save his life.
If it’s an OD it 100% lets Chauvin off the moral hook. You can say he was not competent and should have realized it’s an OD and healed him, but that is potentially an elite talent.
I am not sure how hard it is save George there. I think it’s harder than if you asked me to recite the alphabet. If reciting the alphabet saves him then I am morally culpable. If it was as hard as doing brain surgery then I am not morally culpable.
His blood level would not have been reversed by Narcan even if they'd dosed him with it the second they arrived.
Admittedly not a toxicologists so I don’t know if that is true. But that case changed a lot of my beliefs. I know longer think we live under the rule of law. I’ve got no problem with Trump setting up billion dollar slush funds with government funds. Having the modern Democrat Party in power is no longer viable. The goal is to win. Accumulate power you can use. Don’t lose it.
I think Thiel likes Argentina long term. They do seem very gay so maybe that’s part of it. Having a friendly government to go to as an escape route must be considered now.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think the 'eggshell skull' principle would apply to this case.
It does not; for one thing, it's a civil doctrine.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The biggest difference is that Floyd was human excrement. The world was better off with him not in it. Novak wasn’t committing a crime. Novak wasn’t tweeking from hard core drug use. Novak wasn’t acting fucking wild when the police showed up. Novak doesn’t have a history of home invasions where Novak held a gun to a pregnant woman.
The police’s job with Floyd was to restrain him because he was a criminal who was acting very wild. Notably the police did not start with kneeling on his back. That’s the first video that came out but if you watch the bodycam footage the police tried a lot before kneeling on him.
Less of this, please.
No. I provided the support for way he was terrible. I spoke plainly.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
As I said in my other reply, by saying Chauvin was responsible for his death, I am not necessarily saying that he acted wrongly. Prioritizing the safety of the innocent over that of the guilty can be the correct utilitarian choice in a fraught situation. But you're still responsible for pulling the trolley lever. Even if it wasn't you who tied the person you sacrifice to the trolley tracks, you still made that choice; you can justify your actions, but they are your actions.
The analogy doesn’t hold. In the trolley situation, the victim is exogenously tied to the tracks. In the criminal situation, the criminal tied himself to the tracks. It was in fact just desserts (ie do bad things and bad things are likely to happen to you)
I don't actually think it especially changes the trolley problem if the single person is a suicide attempt.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Floyd was exuberantly resisting arrest and either lying about being unable to breathe or having a medical episode well before anybody laid a finger on him. Chauvin followed the department handbook (He could have attended to him earlier on the ground, sure, but he also likely didn't have a reasonable expectation of the guy overdosing) on how to restrain somebody resisting arrest. I don't mind a court finding him negligent for not checking Floyd but murder is an absolute miscarriage of justice
Wasn't the murder conviction more a result of how Minnesota names negligent manslaughter?
Floyd was in the care of the police and hence they were responsible to provide medical care to him, which they didn't, they exacerbated the situation.
Perhaps this view is overly harsh to the cops, perhaps it isn't, I don't really know (even if sentencing probably was excessive). The point though, is that it wasn't really a murder conviction in the colloquial sense of the word.
More options
Context Copy link
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that "(partly) responsible for his death" is a much lower bar than "guilty of murder".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Why? Every policy is written in blood. How many people going on deranged crashouts would hurt themselves or someone else if they weren't forcibly restrained?
I once called the cops to assist some delirious homeless guy who fell over and cracked his head open on the sidewalk. Do you think the cops should have let Floyd drive away while ODing on fent, which is what he would have done otherwise?
I'll go on the record and say that if I'm ever in a similar state, I would be thankful to be restrained, because I have a bare minimal "deserves to live in a decent society" level of concern for the likelihood that I might accidentally hurt someone else while out of my mind.
I said "best practice for maximizing a fentanyl-overdose patient's chances of survival"; not "police best-practice for dealing with a drugged-out suspect who might be dying but might also still be a danger to others". It may very well be that keeping him restrained on the off-chance that if they'd relaxed the hold, he would have turned out to be faking enfeeblement and run off and harassed people, was a defensible gamble for public safety. But if, in a situation of Bayesian uncertainty, you choose to prioritize neutralizing the potential threat posed by an individual over that individual's own health, and it turns out he was in fact dying, then you're responsible for his death. That doesn't necessarily mean you made the wrong choice, but you did make a choice that led to his death and you need to own up to that.
It's also worth noting that the police were surrounded by hostile people yelling at them. That's going to split attention and make it difficult to stop and check the guy and do first aid. And they had an ambulance on the way. (Iirc, it actually took a wrong turn and was delayed for several minutes.)
And the concern isn't just that Floyd might have hurt others. He could very easily have tried to get up and fallen and hurt himself. Like I said, I've personally seen someone in a comparable state literally crack their own skull open by falling over and hitting the corner of the curb. And in such a case, the PD is still getting sued or worse because "He was obviously in distress, why didn't you keep better control of him!"
More options
Context Copy link
If Floyd ingested a gigadose of drugs then he's responsible for his own death far more than the policeman who held him down.
And likewise if Digwa stabbed Nowak through the lung he's far more responsible for Nowak's death than the police officers who failed to get Nowak first aid, but responsibility still exists even if it isn't exclusive.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If Nowak had been actively resisting and fleeing arrest, as Floyd was at the time of the start of the restraint, there would be some sort of point you're making. It's not like Floyd was passed out in the gutter when Chauvin rocked up and then Chauvin spontaneously decided to kneel on his upper back.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Reddit levels of _"nuh-uh!" with nothing to back it up.
The Fall of Minneapolis is an entire documentary, that you can watch for free, about the extensive fuckery around the George Floyd case. While, charitably, there is room to argue about Floyd's cause of death, the idea that any sort of fair process of justice was carried out after the fact is close to laughable at this point. Chauvin being in sentenced to over 20 years is perhaps the most recent and glaring example of a literal political prisoner.
Then you have to layer on the contest of lackdown double-standards from 2020. "Stay home with no exceptions unless you want to murder your whole neighborhood" gave way to "It's not possible to catch COVID at a George Floyd rally" awfully quickly.
The entire George Floyd meta-cycle ought to be studied as one of those particularly shameful mass events in American history. I'd put it up there with, ironically enough, something like the spontaneously lynchings in the South over the first 20 - 30 years of the 20th century.
Yeah I'm sure the position contributed to Floyd's death on some level but I feel it is a rounding error compared to the drug ingestion and it was an appropriate thing to do to a felon actively resisting arrest. I've also yet to see anybody render anybody unconscious via the 'chokehold' that Chauvin was applying which is definitely an uncomfortable position but is not any sort of actual strangulation.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
No, two autopsies found different results. The original one "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."
The second autopsy, the "independent" one, was hired by the family, represented by race-baiting huckster Benjamin Crump.
The tox report found Fentanyl 11 ng/ml. 2-3 ng/ml is lethal for someone without a high tolerance
“[Dr. Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death,” the memo said.
That's not utterly conclusive, but I think any reasonable person would consider it a reasonable doubt, especially given the unprecedented pressure campaign going on. If you were a medical examiner during the Summer of Love, would you have been willing to send all the people burning cities into a berserk rage by declaring it an OD? At what confidence level?
I've got no doubt that the position and the stress of being arrested contributed somewhat to Floyd dying. But I'm also sure that his diet and existing lifestyle factors also did and nobody from McDonald's went to prison
And well he should’ve been arrested. Don’t steal from stores; don’t get arrested.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link