site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   3501 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for June 4, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

How can I find (without being predatory), the type of women that are in my league? Yes, go outside…but around 80 to 90 percent of the people in my local Wal-Mart are more attractive than I am. And the percentage is even higher for any of the common suggestions…bars, yoga, running groups. They all have jobs, are able to maintain basic hygiene, aren’t 400 pounds, if they’re using stuff like meth or heroin they’re hiding it very well.

Bonus points if there’s a low risk of being killed, maimed, or thrown in jail. Anything I can think of is basically predatory and as such not something I’m comfortable doing.

Like. Given that most people that can hold down a job, have the ability to live independently (1), and keep a roof over their head are out of my league…how do I find someone that’s reasonable, without being a predator. Preferably while staying above ground and out of jail…if you’re sleeping with crackheads that’s gross. Maybe there’s an honorable way to do that, and maybe I’m basically expected to be a combination friends-with-benefits and social worker to someone like that. But how might I make that happen in a more or less ethical way?

Yeah. I know that what I’ve posted sounds gross. It is. Are there OK ways to engage with this grossness, leave her better than I found her, and be a decent man in spite of it? If I’m expected to be celibate for life because short ugly sperg, I get that. I understand that there are no good outcomes for me with respect to dating and relationships. I’m looking for the least-bad option here.

(1): not someone that has the skills to live independently but cannot afford it - like a McDonald’s worker that lives with her mom. That’s fine; if she got promoted to manager or just got $60k/year she could live in an apartment or something without trashing the place. I’m talking more about shit like ‘being mentally ill and removing the toilet from its mountings’. True story - I know a guy that worked with the homeless and said that many of them fucked up their housing and apartments by doing shit like this.

I lost 40lbs when I moved to a poor country. Eating their food and I didn't get a car/bike, I assume. And the girls here are just endless. I have two girls i can't get rid of and I get approached by a new girl almost every day. This is after years of having little prospects in America. Seriously, go south.

How far south did you go? Are you talking about Mexico or did you go further south?

How often are you going to start with this same old topic? I still want you to post a picture of yourself.

Not proud of this but I blocked him for a while. I enjoy dating related talk in motte and it is very annoying that he just comes and repeats same nonsense under every comments. Not sure if it is trolling or genuine mental breakdown. Gonna unblock and check back in a month if I remember

Yes, go outside…but around 80 to 90 percent of the people in my local Wal-Mart are more attractive than I am.

The answer remains that the first option is to get good, or at least non-terrible. Exceeding the bar of 20th percentile at Wal-Mart isn't hard and if you've dedicated more time to posting about approaches as a very unattractive person than becoming slightly more attractive, you're doing it wrong.

This is the way.

@SkookumTree, stop agonizing over whether or not you are worthy and focus on being worthy. The rest will sort itself out as a result.

1.) Become worthy

2.) Accept (P) ower / ussy

Simple & difficult, and the only way forward.

Yeah. I might have known maybe three people that are or were up to that standard. Very strong-willed, hardworking, principled people. Two of them fought life-and-death battles for what they believed in, one in combat. 99 percent of people are totally unworthy of someone willingly enduring a deep, biologically-rooted disgust in order to make them happy, or to benefit them. Is there anyone in your life for whom you would willingly enter a relationship with someone who you are not attracted to and who you are deeply disgusted by, and remain faithful to them for life? Is there anyone who you think is in any way deserving of this form of sacrifice?

Brother, have you never met an ugly and/or fat dude who can talk to women because they are funny or charming or rich or smart or have a huge dick or usually some combination of the above?

I’ll add my voice to the chorus and say it’s extremely unlikely your case is as extreme and dramatic as you’re making it out to be, and that extreme self disgust you project is probably doing most of the damage.

It really seems like a self fulfilling prophecy with you.

Once. He is, I shit you not, a neurosurgery resident with enough charisma for a career in politics. He is also 5'4". The other short guys... okay, they're dating morbidly obese women that still have jobs and aren't crackheads, or they're single. About half and half. Fat guys: if they're both funny and taller than average. Or if they met their girlfriends in high school. Same for ugly guys.

As far as autism: hmm. Two I know. One was a military officer from a poor background, the other was a software engineer who supported his non-working girlfriend. She was nice enough, although she had antisocial personality disorder and found autists easier to model. Not exactly applicable here.

  1. Become worthy of the kind of sacrifice that someone would have to make to be with me: become worthy of having someone willingly endure disgust simply to make me happy. I know maybe one or two people who might meet that standard, if anyone does.

  2. Cultivate the virtues necessary to be a good partner, father, husband, nurse, and caretaker. Be the guy who’s got enough slack to live a decent life…and absorb a six hundred pound woman, or deal with a heroin addict, and still be a good community member, friend, and person.

This actually makes a lot of sense. That sounds like ‘be a fit, charismatic, fashionable guy who is extremely hardworking, very diligent, altruistic, prosocial, caring, has a very high tolerance for both frustration and pain, and is well-connected especially with healthcare providers, mental health resources, and local law enforcement’. Those traits would have made the lives of some of my friends a little better. More resources, a little less resentment at their mothers’ failings. Some of them weren’t all that harmful, on the order of What’s Eating Gilbert Grape. Others were ‘attempted murder’ or ‘failure to provide basic medical care in early adolescence, leading to minor but lifelong problems’. It’s essentially figuring out how to stand between your children and tragedy, because the ambulances are coming and your goal, your fucking job, is to keep them away from your kids as much as is realistic, and when you can’t, provide them with a good role model and good coping skills and resources to deal with it.

Thank you.

One of the primary problems of the modern internet is that it creates such false expectations in relationships and dating. 4chan inceldom proclaiming all women need 7 foot 10 gigachads making minimum twelve figures with their own private island is not indicative of women in general but rather of high-visibility women - THOTs on instagram or onlyfans are the focus of a lot of these communities, and these young women are selling themselves for attention and money. Men focus entirely on the transactional nature of relationships which comes at significant cost.

Of course, it's easier to say this when you're not suffering from the anxiety of finding someone. A lot of finding a relationship of it is backing off of that obsession of 'finding' someone and focusing more on building out your friend group.

  1. Focus less on tearing yourself down and your own self-image and either a) care less about your self-image or b) work on building your self-image up. This doesn't necessarily mean 'more plates more dates' but instead developing hobbies and learning how to reach out to people without the initial expectation of a relationship. This can be at work, finding a friend group, hobby, etc. I found the people who tend to have no problems finding dates are lower neuroticism and more about reaching out to people and being able to talk to them than it is looks and income.

  2. Many young women have the same neuroticism and insecurities as you. At work I befriended a lot of people simply because I was looking to find people who are similarly social as I am, as I moved to a new state wand wanted to find people to hang out with. That alone gives you a lot of attention because you're inviting people to participate in anything with you, bar hopping, eating out, whatever activity is in the area. Being able to reach out as friends or to make introductions will put you at a significant advantage over a lot of these young males who are too neurotic to do so. A big portion of this is not worrying if it ends up with sex initially. It's as easy as saying "Hi, I'm xyz, mind if I join you?". I wouldn't do this at Walmart but at a lunch table or at a bar or a party it works great.

  3. Focus on building your friend group over finding a date. If you don't have many irl friends try to find friends first. Show you can laugh at yourself and take a joke and be willing to try new things and most people are pretty inviting. If you find a good friend group girls will naturally be attracted to a group of people having fun, plus you can ask them to join in as well.

I understand the value of building a big friend group. If anything, I’ll wind up the 40yo virgin with the big friend group, following this strategy. It’s also a potential buffer against a lot of tragedy and other crap: if I do wind up dating anyone, there’s likely to be some kind of fucked-up shit with that. Two Aspies I know started out dating and had girls try to stab them. One blocked the knife; the other very nearly died from blood loss. Honestly, not so bad - we expect women to date their only natural predator. Stabbed guy made a full recovery: the wonders of modern medicine.

As far as the whole crap about 7’10” Gigachad: not really…unless you’re short, 5’4” or less, AND want someone that is both sane and not morbidly obese. If you’re short and jacked, you can get someone that holds a job, isn’t a danger to herself or others, and can do basic hygiene. If you’re on the spectrum…I haven’t seen men on the spectrum date unless they were 6’ tall and/or earned $250k+/year.

I don’t know how it goes if you are exceptionally charismatic or popular; just being the guy who’s got 30 people he can call and ask to hang out ain’t enough. It’s got to be closer to 300.

If your advice is ‘get some self-esteem; stop thinking that you have to settle so damn hard that there is a real risk of being killed, maimed, or thrown in jail’ I understand that - even if it cashes out to lifelong celibacy and a big social circle. Even so, advice on how to find someone who’s in what I believe to be my “league” in an ethical manner is pretty thin. Maybe there isn’t a way for an ugly employed autist to date women in his league without being predatory or at least slimy as hell, at least not in middle-class America. Like. If the morbidly obese single mom working the cashier at WalMart is your match on a very good day, and most of the people in your “league” are either in institutions or in and out of them? That’s hard: how do you date someone that’s in and out of the ER or the psych ward or the local jail or living in a group home without being a goddamn predator? I’m leaning towards “generally speaking, unless you’re similarly fucked up, you don’t”. Sure, it’s legal if they have the capacity to consent, but a lot of predatory shitbaggery is legal.

I also have another long-form comment about how in 21st-century America, Joe Median is a bad deal for Jane Median and it makes an imperial shitload of sense for Jane Median to go for Joe Above-Average. TL;DR dudes be dangerous and risky; best get compensation for that risk, provision and protection ain’t as important/gendered anymore.

If Stephan Hawking can get married twice, you will be able to find some companionship at some point in your life. Learning self-worth is some part of it, the other part is developing a personality which people can find appealing is also incredibly benifitial.

Since it seems a lot of your hang ups are on height; I know of two people in successful marriages who are approximately around your height. Height is only an issue because you allow it to be one.

I have a feeling you've posted a lot in various threads about your dating over the years. I forget, are you still in school?

Just be a +1000SD genius, bro, it's that easy. I find the approach of using Hawking and Dinklage as examples somewhat counterproductive. Those two successful (I'll take your word for it) marriages, how long ago did they start, by the way?

These guys are like freaking Muggsy Bogues.

One since 2017, the other was before COVID so around 2018/19 I think.

Yeah. One year to go.

Muggsy Bogues played in the NBA at 5'3; this means that people my height can play professional basketball.

And unlike professional basketball, your chances of finding a woman with a generally healthy dispositions who likes you is much higher.

I’m confused about what you’re saying. Are you saying that your league is so low you can’t find any women in it you wouldn’t feel predatory trying to date? Might I suggest ozempic, a job, and a shower if that’s the case?

Or are you saying you’re looking for someone minimally functional and not morbidly obese, but poor and not particularly cute? Just import one from Ukraine or Argentina or date single moms off plenty of fish.

I read this in the overall comment feed and immediately knew whom you were replying to.

I’m saying yes, my league is so low that I can’t find any women in it I wouldn’t feel predatory trying to date. As for Ozempic, job, and shower: I’m a grad student, decently fashionable. Far from the unshaven, smelly, fat guy you envision. 5’6” and 160 pounds; while I’m no slouch in the weight room, I could stand to lose 10 to 15 pounds.

If I looked like Danny DeVito and worked as an engineer, and had none of his acting talent, would you say the same? Sure, he could lose weight, but he’s still short and ugly. Imagine who autistic Danny DeVito’s league is, hydroacetylene.

How much is losing your virginity worth to you? A plane ticket?

I had thought you were self describing as 400 lbs with poor hygiene. You don’t actually sound that low, just kind of short(but taller than the average woman! And you can just lie about your height, wear cowboy boots, and date short women- they don’t care very much as long as you’re taller than them) and maybe with bad social skills(have you tried improving them? You can probably find adult social skills classes by dealing with a therapist, yes I know therapy is cringe) and an unfortunate face(is it something different facial hair can fix?).

In reality women care a lot less about what you look like than you’d think. Try dating Asian women or overweight but not landwhale single moms- both less picky than average if you’re white.

If all else fails there’s a lot of single women who really, really want to get out of Ukraine right now.

Dude. I'm okay with morbid obesity as long as she's capable of basic hygiene. Even that is potentially negotiable as long as I can do it ethically. That's basically my league right now bro.

I don’t see what’s so unethical about dating a fat woman three social classes below you?

Sex is illegal in American culture. There's probably someone in Skookum's life that will shame him for trying, whoever he tries to talk to, however he tries to talk to her. You can go anywhere in America and still find the same pattern. Maybe these rules only apply to a certain class of men, but they apply across all English-speaking subcultures.

Fortunately, there are other places for us to live.

Nothing - as long as she is capable of doing basic hygiene. You might have power-differential issues if she’s bedbound and needs her butt wiped.

No one is suggesting you date severely disabled people, mental patients, or women who are in and out of prison. But most fat single moms are not that.

Literally just have no standards on plenty of fish or some other bottom of the barrel dating site. That seem to be what you want to do, so why are you agonizing about it? Make like a kid in an Indonesian sneaker factory and just do it.

Haven't tried plenty of fish.

I don't see any ethical issues at all if she is able to work a job, any job, and live independently. If the fat single mom is working a job at McDonald's, isn't shooting up heroin, and hasn't stabbed anyone or gotten them thrown in jail she is a catch.

Like. My goals/standards are, in this order:

  1. don't be a predator or evil

  2. date someone

  3. stay aboveground and out of hospitals and jails

Those seem reasonable, no? Or is even that fairly modest seeming goal unrealistic?

More comments

Maybe this has been brought up in one of your other dating posts, but have you considered going abroad? I guarantee that you can find better women than who you're talking about here in the Philippines or Thailand, and if you're white, it honestly doesn't matter how ugly you are.

I have, but can’t afford it. So too, why the hell wouldn’t she leave the moment the ink’s dry on the green card? I’m not looking for marriage at the moment.

Like. If we’re just looking at Americans, yeah. Those are my options. How do I engage with them in a way that isn’t predatory and preferably doesn’t leave me killed, maimed, or thrown in jail?

Yes, I’ve tried online dating; 99 percent of the profiles they show me are way out of my league and the other 1 percent is just out of my league. I suspect that ‘functional enough to own a smartphone and use a dating app’ is actually a fairly significant filter.

Shit, knowing what I know now, if I got teleported back to America with $0, I would skip meals and scrimp on every luxury until I saved up enough for a plane ticket to southern Mexico. I'd honestly risk death to escape America if that's what it came to.

Lol. Why Southern?

Southern Mexico is a lot poorer than northern Mexico. It’s also safer and much more indigenous/less white.

If he means Chiapas, specifically, they’re also probably the least feminist women in the western hemisphere.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats