This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Anyone remembers (or even heard of) the Insidious? The supernatural series that hasn't made one good movie since the original, like most horror/slasher flicks since the 80s? Well, they just released another movie, one that I didn't even know existed until I went to watch Across the Spiderverse with a friend last night. And guess what, despite the teetering reputation and C+ reviews on Cinema Score, it managed to become a commercial success and knocked the Indy Jones finale with a much bigger domestic box office opening.
This fad has been going on for years but (to me, at least) it never stops being remarkable how big tentpole entries that raked hundreds of millions in the past just manage to fall flat. These franchises tend to be somewhat bulletproof, there's more room for failure and these brands usually wouldn't take a hit due to a few bad entries. Yet, here we are. It seems like Indiana Jones Dial of Destiny might not make back its PRODUCTION budget, let alone break even, that's just out the window. How do you get handed the keys to the most beloved IP's there are, with passionate fandoms falling over themselves to rain cash on you for merch, something that's effectively been a cultural icon for decades, and turn it into a hot pile of steaming crap that no one wants to get 10 yards within? They could make the Crystal Skull (which still raked good money btw) and get away with it. Now, all of a sudden, DoD is the final nail in the coffin.
Every time we pointed out the warning signals, the /r/IndianaJones circlejerk simply kept dismissing us as bigots still continue to defend it like it's some misunderstood masterpiece and the only ones who hate it are incels that can't handle strong women. It's the same theme every single time. We knew Disney was BS'ing nostalgia when it brought back Palpatine, not coming up with something "daring and creative". It hasn't been a full year since RoP, the excuses went from "they've only revealed the casting, we haven't even gotten a first look yet" --> "it's not even out yet, you've just seen the trailer" --> "you've seen one episode, how can you gauge anything from it" --> "most shows don't get good until the 2nd or 3rd season, give it a chance!" You just can't win here. It turns out exactly as terrible or even worse than what we'd expected, to the point where the brand name gets reduced to the same tier as any other obscure brand like Insidious. Yet, we always have the very same passionate circlejerk defending these movies on every fandom on social media. Nor will we ever see Kathleen Kennedy lose her job. I used to think it was plausible it was a grand conspiracy to fuck over the middle class by subverting our culture and values, then I thought it was just Hanlon's Razor, now I'm not even sure.
It’s the Matrix 3 effect, in my opinion. Matrix 1 was a modernist film about postmodernism, which is why it won big. Matrix 2 was a deconstruction of Matrix 1, and upped the ante on ideas, spectacle, and CGI, but focused on deglamorizing the lives of revolutionaries. Matrix 3 went full postmodern, with a “who do we root for?” ending which was barely explained despite its double big sacrifice.
Matrix 1 and Last Crusade are both practically perfect movies, Matrix 2 and Crystal Skull are both CG heavy cash-ins, and I believe I’ll feel the same way after watching Dial of Destiny the way I felt after Matrix 3.
It's a bit funny that an industry so dedicated to pumping franchises for money insisting on deconstructing their properties for no apparent reason at all, especially when the deconstructions aren't even good or creative.
Why not just give the audience what it wants? Ie. Another adventure man, rom com, war hero, horror, whatever.
I'm not saying that deconstruction can't be a good idea but why does every franchise have to be deconstructed? Why does almost every movie have to be about deconstruction of narrative tropes or the movie making process?
Always chasing the upcoming generation of new consumers who haven't been locked in yet. See Bud Light. They take the existing market share for granted (you're always going to go see the next Star Jones Drink Beer movie, you're always going to drink their brand of soapy water because it's what you started drinking when you were eighteen) but they need to keep drawing in new audiences and new customers, and if in their view Gen Z or whatever we're up to now want DEI and black Elves and trans beer, that's what they'll give them.
Then they piss off the existing customers and don't get the new kids who are never going to be satisfied ("that trans queer furry non-binary character was not played by a trans queer furry non-binary actor, this is appropriation and we're gonna boycott the studio!") , so they end up with the worst of both worlds.
That's the excuse, but peel that back and you find they -- as in those making the decisions, not those holding the stock -- don't want to cater to the existing audience because they're gross.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
And in addition to that deconstruction is so common that the target audience often isn't even familiar with the trope that's being deconstructed any more. Every movie with a princess is careful to subvert the expectation that she'll be a damsel in distress who needs rescuing. All of the princesses are sassy feminists who know karate or have super powers and are conspicuously more competent than the male lead. But when was the last time a major animated feature film did the damsel in distress thing? Looking on Wikipedia I think it was Sleeping Beauty in 1959. So a kid watching Disney today is watching a deconstruction of a trope that hasn't really existed since their great grandparents were going to the movies.
Hercules is a fairly straightforward coming-of-age story where the hero rescues a damsel in distress, but Meg is a little sassy and more of a femme fatale than a damsel. The Swan Princess is more of a pure damsel in distress movie, and bombed in 1994, which might explain why people shied away from this genre.
Earlier than that, The Princess Bride (1987) is notable for having a dumb, beautiful protagonist who is clearly a damsel n distress, though it is not animated. Star Wars in 1977 felt the need to make Leia a strong independent woman who did not need to be rescued, so The Princess Bride was quite brave. Whoopi Goldberg was considered for the role of Buttercup, which would have been different.
My son's favorite character was Gaston, and he believes the movie is a tragedy and should end with Gaston falling from the roof. From his point of view, Gaston did nothing wrong. His crush was captured and imprisoned by a beast, so he roused the village to rescue her. Stockholm syndrome is to be expected, so we can't take Belle's word for things, as "No denying she's a funny girl that Belle."
Based son, he already understands the concept of war brides and Stockholm syndrome being a female-coded phenomenon. We'll watch his career with great interest.
Your son's hardly alone. Gaston and his dark triad personality has many teenage and adult women swooning, hence fanart such as this.
More options
Context Copy link
Didn’t Leia need to be rescued? She was set to be executed. Yes, she wasn’t helpless and was competent. But it is clear throughout the movies that Leia was the moral center but not the physical one.
More options
Context Copy link
Gaston is by any measure the hero of the movie. He's a paragon, the absolute image, of his people, and they adore him. He is the bringer of benefit, the one who is capable of moving them to action as a body.
Gaston’s problem in the end was that he wasn’t masculine enough for Belle.
To channel my inner Sloot, I thought it was that his house wasn't big enough.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think this is a great point.
Edit: though, upon reflection, Tangled played this pretty straight.
More options
Context Copy link
One Piece: Film Red, 2022
Of course, since that isn't American, it just proves your point.
Also, Fate/stay night: Heaven's Feel III.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I suspect it's a skills mismatch. Years ago I watched a video essay in which the author outlined the concept of "chaos cinema". It's that style of action cinema you're all familiar with because it was all the rage in the 2000s and 2010s (maybe even today, I don't think I've seen any action films which came out in the last five years): omnipresent shaky handheld camera, cuts every half a second, lens flares up the wazoo, post-production blurring, dirt on the lens. It's a style of action cinema more prone to inspire disorientation than excitement, nausea than an adrenaline rush. Think Paul Greengrass (Bourne, Captain Phillips), Marc Forster (Quantum of Solace, World War Z), just about every Christopher Nolan action film, Hunger Games.
A later article (which I can't find now) noted that this trend coincided with a spike in Hollywood hiring directors who didn't cut their teeth making action films to direct action films, in hopes of lending them a little cachet and respectability. Before he was tapped for Batman, Christopher Nolan made understated psychological thrillers; before Bond, Marc Forster made intimate dramas and quirky comedy-dramas. The skilful directing of an action film, contrary to what Hollywood producers might believe, is not an easy thing to do, and one shouldn't assume that the ability to direct an intimate character drama necessarily translates to the ability to direct an action film which is exciting and engaging. So these directors, with colossal budgets at their disposal but essentially no experience in how to stage and shoot an action sequence effectively, took the easy way out. Let's just get fucktons of coverage from every angle and shake our cameras like we're having an epileptic fit, we'll figure it out in post.
Note that this approach can technically "work" in producing an action film which is true to the franchise in question, provided the director (and, more importantly, the screenwriter(s)) actually have some respect for it and understand why it appeals to people. The Dark Knight is widely considered a faithful adaptation of the Batman comics despite containing some of the most incoherent action sequences ever put to film, and the received wisdom was that the Nolan brothers and David S. Goyer had really done their homework in understanding the comics.
I think there's something similar going on here. We're making a new Indy movie, yay! Who's going to write it? We could hire a screenwriter who has an established track record in writing screenplays in the action-adventure genre, but that's not enough - we don't just want our Indy movie to make bank, we want it to have prestige. Everyone who's anyone is talking about that Fleabag girl, who's got her phone number?
The trouble is that, while Phoebe Waller-Bridge may be a talented playwright and screenwriter in her comfort zone (my girlfriend made me watch the first episode of Killing Eve the other day and I barely laughed, but everyone who's seen it tells me Fleabag lives up to the hype), she may not really understand what makes Indiana Jones appeal to people. She may, in fact, have nothing but contempt for the people who enjoy Indiana Jones. So when a Hollywood producer gives her a fat paycheque and tells her to "put her own spin" on the franchise - well, she's going to deconstruct the shit out of it, isn't she? It's not bloody Shakespeare.
That genre has been dead for 20+ years. There aren't any ...
Tom Cruise disagrees.
Tom Cruise Mummy was utter shit.
Yeah but that was development by committee to the extreme, Universal pictures were desperate to create a narrative universe they could use to remake all the classic monster movies in their vault. The Mission Impossible movies are all produced by Cruise, who I suspect is responsible for maintaining the formula and quality of them (which isn't the best of the best, but is consistently better than average.)
I think Tom Cruise Mummy was the moment when Hollywood started its true decline.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
People genuinely have liked Christopher Nolan films, generally, not just The Dark Knight. People raved about Inception when it came out.
Then he made TENET, though.
I will always admire Tenet for what it is - millions of dollars spent bringing to life the scattered thoughts of a guy who has smoked way too much weed. I don't have any proof Nolan is a stoner aside from Tenet, but Tenet is pretty solid proof on its own.
I'm generally not a fan of Nolan (I've seen several of his films and still think he's yet to top Memento) so I wasn't really that pushed about seeing Tenet. But I read a review somewhere in which the critic said it was the most impenetrable film they'd seen since Primer, which did pique my curiosity a bit. I love Primer, but it was made by one guy in his garage for two months' salary. The idea of someone expending a nine-figure budget to create something comparably bizarre and incomprehensible is intriguing, if nothing else.
Still haven't gotten around to watching it but my girlfriend wants us to watch it soon.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
My god was Tenet bad, it's Christopher Nolan huffing his own farts, the movie.
And I say this as someone who likes his movies, I loved Interstellar and Inception.
Am I the only one that thought the male lead was really bad? I thought the praise for him was so bizarre, he doesn't have half the charisma of his father.
Is he good in something else?
Whatever it was, I think the main problem was that he made the life of an international superspy pulling off insane heists (three in one film!) seem like it was boring? Like he (the character, not the actor) just didn't want to be there?
Compare/contrast to James Bond who generally seems to enjoy killing baddies, infiltrating bases, and seducing women. For the protagonist it just seemed rote.
No possible way to forgive the audio mixing though.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I first watched Tenet during COVID with a now-ex-friend who had gone full progressive pod person; this fucking guy pretended to be "queer" because he just had to complete the trifecta of being a gay black communist (to be maximally appealing to college-educated white women).
He claimed to love TENET because (direct quote) "It had a black protagonist and internationalism themes." He will forever be my model organism of empty-inside clout-chasing scum.
What the fuck does that even mean?
More options
Context Copy link
Put him at the head of the queue when you live up to your username.
You're welcome to use my skull too if you'd like, I feel like it's a lot emptier after watching Tenet, and hasn't fleshed out all the way since.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I know, despite his obvious deficiencies in directing action sequences he has directed one critical and commercial smash after another.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Because artists want to do what is cool among their peers.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link