domain:inv.nadeko.net
Fruck
Lacks all conviction
2hr ago
The ranks of the dark side grow every day. One day we will end the tyranny of light!
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2hr ago
You know, this might not be far off from how I was taught, I don't think they literally said "this is how a representative sample of the Holocaust victims were executed". The problem is that the "just one of the methods listed" approach meant that it was indeed a list, a grotesque parade of man's cruelty to man that is now seared into my mind. It doesn't help that it included things that "no one seriously thinks they happened" like soaps, lampshades, showers, and euthanasia trucks.
magic9mushroom
If you're going to downvote me, and nobody's already voiced your objection, please reply and tell me
2hr ago
You said, apparently seriously, "you apparently think all Indians are the same". That is an accusation of racism, and not the boring scientific kind most of us are, the actually-mindkilled kind. That's an accusation of moral turpitude and irrationality; levelling those without the best of grounding is literally against several rules of theMotte and extremely likely to incense people. And, well, I can't say I've read all his posts, but searching his posts for "India" only shows up a note that it has lower QoL than the West and thus its inhabitants have less to lose and more to gain from gambles like AI than he does as a Westerner. Your post there is the kind of post that people get modded for.
Now, it is true that theMotte does prohibit returning flaming in kind, so this doesn't mean @iprayiam3 is fully off the hook. But for you, Amadan, to flame someone and then personally ban him for responding less escalatorily than you did, while walking off scot-free? Yeah, that's not good modding. If I saw a mod I didn't trust pull that trick, I'd immediately categorise it as entrapment. I do trust you enough to take at face value that this wasn't a deliberate trap, but you've got to realise that a lot of people on this board don't, and acting with unclean hands like this is a really-good way to reinforce their suspicions.
NB: I'm not accusing @self_made_human of anything here. I don't think he did anything especially wrong and rated his response Neutral.
FistfullOfCrows
2hr ago
Well they did stab the germans in the back with their banking practices, and when the war started they also got their international banking buddies in the UK, and US to try and turn them against the germans. Тhey were also the purveyors of some of the worst kind of excesses the Weimar republic was known for. We haven't even mentioned the failed Commie revolution in germany.
cause the evidence just wasn't there for him that they could possibly kill that many Jews
It's mathematically impossible to do so, physically. Did he also mention the positively increasing number revisions from the somewhat believable 100k up on through the years?
OliveTapenade
3hr ago
For what it's worth, my recollection from high school was broadly, "millions of Jews were killed, these are some of the ways in which it was done", and gas chambers were just one of the methods listed.
There are plans, budgets, orders for all of those things...
Not in the sense that is being talked about here. The closest to it that you could come up with is admiral Levine getting the age limits pulled, but the sudden mass-promotion of the phenomenon wasn't done on the order of Transgender Hitler.
On the flip side, the camps weren't operating without budgets, plans, and orders either. The point being raised here is that the order wasn't literally "exterminate all the Jews", so the plans weren't things like "to exterminate all the Jews, we will need XYZ", and the budgets did not include things like "Jew extermination gas canisters" as line items. This again strikes me as eerily similar to how the modern progressive regime operates.
It's not a task that a mid-level officer would just put on his own shoulders because of "mind-reading."
Did the judge that ruled the migrants can stay in the Epping hotel need a direct order, or an act of law being passed? Is it really that surprising an underling might interpret "will no one rid me of this turbulent priest" as an order of execution?
Regarding the logistical issues, it would be interesting to see the orders, plans, and budgets, that they did have. If the mid-level officers were charged with managing the Jewish population, didn't have enough resources to do it properly, and knew no one in the regime would really miss them if they disappeared, but conversely could get into trouble for requeating more resources to be diverted from the war effort, then mass murder is starting to look like a perfectly rational conclusion.
You could say the same thing about the Pyramids, and yet, there they are.
Do not mistake difficulty for impossibility. Moving multi-tonne stone blocks down the Nile with Bronze Age technology, let alone assembling them in massive load-bearing structures is perhaps impossible to the mind of a layman. It is not impossible, when you consider the Pharaohs had the resources of a sophisticated state that literally gives out seeds to its farmers so that they can pay their taxes in the expected amount and kind.
Indeed, you could say that the function of states, besides war, is to organize resources to accomplish wasteful yet impressive things. In this light, the Holocaust is merely a modern-day version of pyramids of skulls, at an industrial scale. The Nazis embarked on a multi-front war of conquest which logistics spanned from the coast of Normandy to the fjords of Norway to... Egypt, all the way to the gates of Stalingrad, supplying millions of men in the field with cutting-edge technology. Are you telling me, that of all people, Germans are not organized?
If you look at their plans for Berlin after the war, for the Volkshaile and other wonders, you understand they had no lack of ambition.
Do you have the same level of skepticism for the Pyramids, too? Maybe the Great Wall of China, as well. How about the Holodomor? Maybe aliens did help them. Perhaps aliens were involved in the Holocaust, since is simply impossible for human beings to accomplish it on their own.
We call these aliens bureaucrats.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
3hr ago
There are plans, budgets, orders for all of those things... But ultimately the claimed Extermination Camps are a monumental logistical challenge. Murdering and disappearing the bodies of that many people in that time frame is an extremely difficult and dangerous task. It's not a task that a mid-level officer would just put on his own shoulders because of "mind-reading." It's a task that would absolutely require careful planning, budgeting for resources and building suitable structures, provisioning the operation, etc.
We have an extremely large body of documents pertaining to written orders, construction orders, blueprints, plans, budgets when it comes to the concentration and labor camps. But it's the "extermination camps" that have none of those things.
The notion that this operation emerged without orders, without plans, without budgets is highly unlikely and the claim it did so is necessitated by the fact the existence of the operation not corroborated by those things.
Amadan
Enjoying my short-lived victory
3hr ago
Again you subtly reword the parameters of the scenario. No, what I described is realistic. What you describe intentionally exaggerates or omits.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
3hr ago
So there you have it- no plans, no budget, no orders; instead it was "mind-reading" by lower-level officers.
This would hardly be surprising. It's essentially what is happening now with transgender care, infinity immigration, race swapping of historical figures in media, etc. This might have implications that are rather uncomfortable for modern liberals, and academic historians might laugh off the attempt to provide any such explanation in any other context, but on the simple matter of whether it actually happened that way - why not?
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
3hr ago
The reality is that it just takes one person to flip out to cause a chain reaction and ruin the entire operation which was allegedly run in extreme secrecy and on a tight schedule. A riot in which hundreds of people are running, hiding, fighting is not an easy situation to deal with and would cause substantial delays in the entire "production" process. The notion that the Germans would design a system so finely tuned to a specific crowd reaction to that scenario beggars belief, it is well suited for the "evil genius" archetype but it's a totally nonsensical way to organize an operation like that.
There are innumerable instances of crowds reacting to danger and imminent death with panic, I cannot think of any example of crowds reacting in the way you seem to think is sensible. Being tired or hungry would not mute that response in your brain which would make you panic at the idea of marching your child down a narrow hallway to a gas chamber...
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
3hr ago
Also I didn't realize I had a tendency to make such posts. So much for self-awareness.
I greatly enjoy reading those posts out to my wife in my best Exotica Eric impression.
Good to know. Probably the guy's general selfish obliviousness (as if the gym is his living room) is the little drop of Retsyn that makes his grunting irritating.
Monopolizing equipment is definitely annoying but IME most people are willing to let people work in, especially on selectorized equipment like a leg curl.
OliveTapenade
3hr ago
I believe I've had this argument with him before - it always comes down to quibbling minutiae, as if any individual crack in a story will cause a dam to burst forth.
I find it is helpful here to stay focused on the big picture. The specific details are trivia. "The Holocaust happened", in I think the minds of most normal people, means "the Nazis, in WWII, tried to kill all the Jews". There are a few details that are common knowledge past that, but beyond the six million figure or the idea that it involved death camps, I don't think most people know about or particularly care about the details or the process. The Nazis tried to kill all the Jews and they killed at least a couple of million. If that statement is true, then "the Holocaust happened" is essentially true.
OliveTapenade
3hr ago
I am not convinced that Holocaust deniers want a Christian government or state. If nothing else, when I've talked to the Motte's own local Holocaust deniers, they tend to respond badly to professions of Christian faith - Christianity is perceived as just another head of the Jewish hydra, and believers are taken in by the racial mythology of a foreign group.
Amadan
Enjoying my short-lived victory
3hr ago
You said that it's a straw-man to characterize the operation as them walking to their deaths like sheep through an assembly line. But that is not a straw-man. that is the actual claim made by mainstream historians with cases of resistance being the rare exception and not the rule. The alleged operation fundamentally relied on the cooperation of the victims. Whether or not they actually believed they were taking a shower is immaterial to the fact that they cooperated in the way you implied was silly to believe... and yes it is silly to believe they would do that- they wouldn't and they didn't.
What I am specifically claiming is that it's silly to believe millions of Jews walked docilely into gas chambers because they thought they were just taking a shower.
I do believe they were herded into gas chambers and probably more or less knew what was going on. No doubt the guards tried to hide what was going to happen as much as they could, and some of the victims might have believed a story about showers. That they did not put up more resistance is not a difficult question to answer. They were weak, they were terrified, they had their families with them and men with guns ready to shoot them. In a movie or a comic book, someone decides they've got nothing to lose and goes down fighting, and sparks a mass uprising. In reality, people do usually go to their deaths without much resistance, especially if they have a single thread of hope, some faint chance of convincing themselves they might survive. In reality, maybe one guy does try to go down fighting and promptly gets shot, thus demonstrating to everyone else how effective that is.
You are simply insisting there was no gas, there was no genocide, there was no plan to kill Jews, and as usual, duck all the other questions that are inconveniently unanswerable.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
4hr ago
Yes there were. They engaged in anti-partisan activity and reprisals, etc. But evidence shows they weren't on some mission to "kill all the Jews" and there was no such policy.
The Commissar Order is an example of an actual "extermination" order, and there's nothing like that for Jews.
WandererintheWilderness
4hr ago
none died in that way because there were no extermination camps, there were concentration, labor, and transit camps
Do you believe there were Einsatzgrupen?
WandererintheWilderness
4hr ago
Maybe I am wrong that "no one seriously believes that" but I don't think that is a serious historical claim
That's about my guess, and it's the point I was trying to make with "yeah, well, lots of normies seriously believe Columbus was out to prove the world was round, but that obviously has no bearing on a discussion of the historical consensus about Columbus's travels" way upthread.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
4hr ago
As I said to Arjin, my understanding is that large numbers of Jews were herded into gas chambers, but the majority of them were probably not marching in believing they were just showers.
You said that it's a straw-man to characterize the operation as them walking to their deaths like sheep through an assembly line. But that is not a straw-man. that is the actual claim made by mainstream historians with cases of resistance being the rare exception and not the rule. The alleged operation fundamentally relied on the cooperation of the victims. Whether or not they actually believed they were taking a shower is immaterial to the fact that they cooperated in the way you implied was silly to believe... and yes it is silly to believe they would do that- they wouldn't and they didn't.
If you proved to me that the Germans only gassed 100,000 Jews
The Germans did not gas any Jews. The "gas chambers disguised as shower rooms" is a total myth, it did not happen. Many Jews died of various causes throughout the war, none died in that way because there were no extermination camps, there were concentration, labor, and transit camps.
Again, this is ridiculous, no one is saying the camps were not planned or budgeted or there were no written orders about disposition of Jews. There may have been no written orders saying precisely "Kill all the Jews in your camp" or "Kill at least 1000 Jews per day." That doesn't mean it "emerged organically from Hitler's rhetoric."
There are no plans... no budgets.... no orders.... there's nothing to establish some policy to kill all the Jews.
You might say that I am strawmanning mainstream historians when I characterize their position that the extermination camps "emerged organically from Hitler's rhetoric." But consider the words of renowned Holocaust Historian Raul Hilberg:
But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus - mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.
So there you have it- no plans, no budget, no orders; instead it was "mind-reading" by lower-level officers. This is the mainstream position which has emerged due to the inabilitiy of mainstream historians to find any documents substantiating their characterization of German policy in this respect.
Amadan
Enjoying my short-lived victory
4hr ago
Yeah, pretty a much.
Okay, I cannot say what your schooling was like. Maybe I am wrong that "no one seriously believes that" but I don't think that is a serious historical claim. Millions of Jews murdered, yes, Millions of Jews murdered with gas, yes. Millions of Jews who all thought they were taking showers, it obviously couldn't work, even in one camp. (Thousands go in, no one comes out, do the guards just tell everyone else they were loaded into buses in back and sent to another camp? Just the first of many logistical problems that make this obviously implausible.)
Is this what normies out in the world believe? I dunno.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
4hr ago
You were taught that millions of Jews were herded through gas chambers believing they were taking a shower?
Yeah, pretty a much. Every trip to a concentration camp museum focused on elaborate descriptions of the unusually cruel and/or underhanded methods of execution. They were very much attempting to paint a picture that this was representative of the Holocaust writ large.
This wouldn't be the first time in the history of man that a ruling regime thought "the commonfolk are too simpleminded to grasp the nuances of the truth, so we have to teach it in a form they can digest", nor would it be the first time that subversives exploited that to turn those among the commonfolk who can grasp the nuances against the regime. When the latter is happening, a reaction like "no one serioisly believes that", is possibly the worst response you can have.
Amadan
Enjoying my short-lived victory
4hr ago
Every regime has collaborators, including collaborators who know there is probably no good ending for them but continue to cooperate because a bullet in the head tomorrow is better than a bullet in the head today. The number of such who will actually try to "revolt," let alone pull off a successful act of resistance, is vanishingly small. Both because of the natural human instinct for selfish self-preservation, and basic coordination problems. (The Nazis were not stupid and were undoubtedly very aware of the possibility.)
Your (purported) understanding of human nature is the one that's off.
This is all, of course, assuming we accept your version of what supposedly is claimed about Treblinka. I know you usually take the most cherry-picked and unreasonable-sounding claims taken from a single source.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
4hr ago
Of course if someone doesn't cooperate digging, you shoot him and it's a little inconvenient. A full-blown riot of a thousand people is a massive security threat to what is supposed to be a top-secret operation. The operation's reliance on the cooperation of the victims to function at all is so conspicuous. That's why the shower room cover story is so important. Such a sensitive task would not have, by design, fundamentally relied on the cooperation of the victims. That's where the shower room story comes into play, it's not just a small detail.
Shouldn't you be asking that question?
Huhuh. "This is how you deal with questions…"
I have counters to many points in that paragraph, some of which @Amadan has already fielded. But I think addressing them would distract me from pointing out that I asked you a very simple question and you are still refusing to answer it. Let me repeat it:
What do you think was going through Hitler's brain? If you're so convinced that right up until 1945 he totally wanted to deliver as many healthy Jews to Madagascar as possible, why do you think he was clinging to that plan instead of attempting the "annihilation of the Jewish race" which he had long promised his base, and was now in a position to deliver? I genuinely want to know. Do you think he didn't want a Jewish genocide? That he wanted it, but he didn't think he could get away with it? That the Madagascar thing was just easier? Tell me!
You think it was Germany's plan to lose the war and have their infrastructure get completely destroyed from both fronts? That was their plan to kill all the Jews?
No, obviously not. I think that, if all else failed, their long-term plan would have been "put all the Jews in camps and, once we no longer need their slave labor, let them all starve". You can, in fact, deliberately let prisoners starve even if your infrastructure is just dandy. In this scenario, to the extent that the breakdown of German infrastructure forced their hand, it would simply have accelerated an outcome which was already in the cards long before.
All specifics aside, if you have hundreds of thousands of people in camps (even camps which had only been work camps up til that point!), it is just evidently quite easy and quite cheap to let them die. It is certainly easier and cheaper than shipping all those people from Poland to Madagascar.
Here we go again. Going to generalities and completely omitting the specifics. Yes, protesting in general is not criminal. "Protesting" like the Hamas mobs did definitely is - property destruction, attacking other students, shutting down campus, preventing other students from learning, etc. It should have been criminally prosecuted, if the campus management did their jobs - but they do not intend to, because of their ideology. That does not make criminal actions less criminal.
I want to notice here also how the left has suddenly rediscovered freedom of speech - in one single case. If you show on campus in KKK uniform or in blackface - you bet your sweet behind you're going to be kicked out. If you burn a rainbow flag or say something against Muslims or transgenders or immigrants - there would be grave consequences. Professors have been fired for much less than that. But if you call for murder of Jews and islamist insurrection in America - oh, here we must tread lightly! Here we must take all measures to not sudenly over-react and give any impression that this kind of speech is somehow unwelcome and that we may not want to see people who speak like that around! That treatment is reserved for somebody who says there are two genders or that maybe equal test scores should give people equal chances for admission, regardless of their genetics. That speech is horrible, but the one about the Jews - that's precious, we must keep that one. Fascinating, how it works. And that's another thing that is way out of normal with the modern Left. They don't believe in freedom of speech, but they select some of it to pretend they do. And the kinds they select is raising a lot of eyebrows for sure.
Seriously, you are choosing a MS-13 member, a human trafficker, a domestic abuser and an illegal migrant who has an active removal order from a judge, to be your best example of how Trump is deporting people just because he's racist and no other reason but thinking there's too many foreign people in America. I guess that does close the case, just not the way you think it does.
Not controlled, but coordinated. And not by CNN alone, of course, as I explained numerous times, it's a network. Propagandist outlets like CNN serve the coordination function in it, disseminating the Currently Correct THinking, so that the faithful would know what they must think. I'm not sure what this has to do with "profit" - their point is not to make a profit, and they are doing piss-poor job as a business, but they are not traditional businesses anymore. They don't need to be, it's not their function.
It's practically impossible to win a case against a news outlet on bias. If they straight out lie - which they do often, because, see above, they are piss poor at their job - they can be successfully sued, but that rarely interferes with the primary function.
Again, they don't "control" how people react, they serve as a conduit to inform the faithful how they need to react. Nobody forces the wokes to be wokes - not by threats or anything like that. But once they become woke - they'd listen to CNN, or read the NYT, or whatever flavor they'd prefer, there are many - that's how they would get their marching orders.
So what? Stalin murdered Trotsky, and they both were Communists (and Stalin murdered many, many more communists too). Of course inside the left there would be some tensions and clashes. I am not saying the leftists always and in everything are in lockstep. I am saying in the question of suppressing the political opposition they are able to deploy vast number of resources, and the banking system is one of those resources that they were successfully able to use for that. Of course it doesn't mean some on the left never had any conflicts with any banks (ignoring now Visa/MC aren't even banks) for any reasons.
Why? Because if was set up this way. Why it was setup this way? Because this way it's much easier to control and manage. Who controls and manages all this system? Deep state bureaucracy. Which side of political spectrum the deep state bureacracy leans to? Bingo! The dependency on the government is a feature that was carefully implemented and entrenched. That's why the left is so infuriated that the right is trying to use it against them - how dare they to use the weapon that was designed and implemented by the Left to fight back against the Left?! It's not fair!
That's what the govenrment had been saying for many years, only the X beliefs were the correct beliefs, that the Left and the deep state condoned, so everything was well. Now that the right is trying to use same tools, the left is screaming "what happened to the small government?!" You killed it, you bastards, that's what happened to it.
Yes they did. BLM riots were widely endorsed and supported - including absolutely mind-blowing declaration in the middle of pandemic that mass gatherings against racism are exempt from any medical concerns - and the premise of US being deeply racist country, solely based on oppression of non-whites by whites, and various race hate hoaxes, from "hands up don't shoot" to finding various nooses in random places etc. has been very actively propagandized. If you haven't seen it, that means your information sources are lacking. That's just explicit endorsement, with second line had been by refusal to address and prosecute any lawbreaking that accompanied those events, and in rarest cases where somebody was arrested they usually were either let go immediately or given slaps on the wrists.
I do. Well, the label is different, but recording things that pissed me off about US politics had been a little hobby of mine for over a decade. Call me crazy but that helps me being less pissed off about them, kind of therapy if you will. I don't often re-read them but sometimes I do.
No I don't, but you do. And when you repeatedly say that you haven't seen or noticed things that I witnessed to happen - either in person or by reading contemporary reports about them as they were happening, and I know that they happened, then I know whatever you read it's not enough to keep you informed. That's how I know.
People with guns tell protestors to stop all the time, and protestors ignore them all the time. If that led to killings each time, all Portland antifa would be dead already, and most of other leftist militants were too. It's not how it works though - except in one single case. In the case where this person posed absolutely no immediate danger to the people with guns or anybody else - and was actually surrounded by people with guns, and people much stronger than her (5'2" woman) who were able to subdue her in seconds without any danger to themselves. Heck, there aren't many 5'2" women that even myself, who isn't a trained police officer at all, would have a problem to handle - unless she had, say, a gun, which Babbit didn't have. This was a clear case of "shoot first, ask questions later" - which poorly trained police, unfortunately, did many times before - but in this case, the victim was a deplorable, so it was deemed ok.
It was easy to prosecute, especially because all the FBI and all the surveillance network (including financial companies, cell companies, etc.) have been mobilized to hunt those horrible criminals - old women that walked in "restricted area". But it wasn't the right thing to prosecute, and it was absolutely horrible injustice in the way it was done. And it was done on purpose - they were prosecuted with maximal effort and maximal cruelty specifically because this was to send the message - the left can do such things any time they want, but the right is not allowed it. There is no symmetry, there is no equality, and the right must be put in their place.
You know btw who FBI didn't find easy to prosecute, despite lots of cameras? Somebody who placed the pipe bombs at DNC and RNC HQs. Somehow nobody cares about that, and the FBI is absolutely content to let it slide while zealously prosecuting every last grandma and grandpa who walked anywhere near the Capitol. Is this normal?
He would say the bank refused to open his account because he was gay? Or the college kicked him out? Or he was attacked by a mob in a restaurant? Or blacklisted by all employers? Which town is that?
It is Trump's party because of the abonrmalities that happened in the previous two decades. His sucess is the direct consequence of the woke abuses. There's a limit to what people could take, and when that limit is reached, you get Trump. Or somebody worse, if you're unlucky. If there was another way of somehow restoring at least some measure of normalcy, then Trump weren't necessary. But the Left is not going to correct itself and roll back the woke insanity. They are too invested in it to stop now. So, an equal and opposing force is needed if we don't want to go deeper and deeper into insanity. That's Trump.
More options
Context Copy link