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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   3232 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 6, 2025

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Why has there been a coordinated push over the last few years to get people to stop using fireworks because it’s supposedly bad for veterans and dogs? I smell a psy-op.

First I’ve heard of it.

You know what I have seen, recently? Broccoli.

If you search “kids hate broccoli,” you can find countless articles parroting this un-American talking point. Some even suggest that “science” has solved this classic mystery. They’re citing the same study from 2021 which something something enzymes something sulfur.

Is this a psy-op? Maybe a ploy by those regulators over in Brussels?

Many years ago, I read a Goosebumps book in which it was a plot point that the protagonist liked liver. (He was replaced by a doppelganger who didn't like liver.) Maybe that was a psy-op from the beef lobby. It was successful in getting me to request liver from my mother. (I hated it.)

Try it in Boudin.

Most of the complaints I see have nothing to do with dogs or vets, but are instead about the impact to birds.

Man, not every movement that is somewhat stupid is a "psy-op". I remember a non-negligible number of bleeding hearts back in India complaining about fireworks because it scared dogs, while the general populace didn't give a shit. Neither did I, both because my dogs could snooze through a nuclear exchange, and because I really didn't care.

Even my ex (who was a bleeding heart liberal by any standard) was part of them, because her poorly trained, nippy little anklebiter was scared shirtless.

It's obvious to me that a certain fraction of people will have an innate proclivity towards certain stances, might be personally sensitive to loud noises, or might live in places where fireworks get out of hand. And that eventually, they might start grassroot or coordinated complaints about it.

Not every silly worldview is a psy-op. You're diluting the word into uselessness.

And yet no one thinks about the dogs in Kharkiv and Kiev ... somehow they have not committed group suicide after 4 years of war. And somehow the dogs survived somehow for a hundred years of fireworks before 2015 when this madness started in earnest. And to think that almost all breeds have started as hunting dogs... I find the efforts to ban fireworks extremely annoying. The fact that they have limited success even in my god forgotten eastern european country is troubling. The more working class neighborhoods are still using a lot of fireworks but posh places are silent on new years eve.

It's just the no-fun brigade up to their usual tricks -- Peterson has been railing about this kind of mundane intervention to suck the enjoyment out of life for regular folks as incipient tyranny for some time, and I'm inclined to agree. See also health-justified alcohol taxes (now spreading to countries where people can't really afford them and could really use a drink, eg Mexico) and 20 mph speed limits in the UK.

I think the combination of overeducated and over sensitive people (quite often women, but not always) and social media are creating a dystopian society in which anything that might bother anyone anywhere must be removed and destroyed. This destroys even the chance of social bonding because unless you can actually go out and do fun things with an exclusive group, you can’t form close relationships. These people need to find their own jobs and hobbies and fix whatever is broken in them that turns them into scolds the minute anyone starts having fun.

I'm neither a veteran nor a dog owner, but I think we need to do something about fireworks because of the usual reason - jerks are ruining it for everyone. I would be perfectly okay with fireworks on July 4, stopping at a reasonable hour (say 10-11 pm) so as not to disturb those trying to sleep. Instead what we get is about 2 months of fireworks on either side of the holiday, frequently going past midnight.

I honestly don't know what to do - normally you might say "make it illegal", but the mortar fireworks are illegal in this state already. But since people can drive 4 hours to Wyoming to get fireworks there, the law doesn't accomplish anything. It's a shame, because I actually love fireworks and it would be really cool to have them in the neighborhood if people were responsible. And to be fair most people are. But as usual, the irresponsible minority is causing problems for everyone.

stopping at a reasonable hour (say 10-11 pm) so as not to disturb those trying to sleep. 10pm?! This gets you less than an hour of darkness where I live.

On July 4th itself, we should at least induldge till 2:00am., with maybe till midnight on the day before, through the next closest weekend.

And yet people have jobs, which they very frequently have to be at the next day. July 4 doesn't usually fall on a weekend like it did this year. It's not reasonable to insist that people can't get sleep when they have to be up the next morning just so that people can get hours upon hours of fireworks. 11 pm, even in your time zone, would be over an hour of darkness. 10pm would be similar in places I've lived. My stated timeframe of 10-11pm is a perfectly reasonable one imo.

July 4th is more important than jobs. Not being facetious.

Not even close. A person's livelihood is far more important than any given celebration, let alone this one which isn't even that important.

Not to dig in, but I can't let the hyperbole slide. A night of interrupted sleep on a national holiday, is not a threat to 'a person's livelihood'.

So whether livelihood is more important than a celebration (and it is), is an irrelevant point here.

Celebrating July 4th is a more important social tool than ensuring total sleep quality on a single night of the year.

I disagree that it's hyperbole, I chose that for a reason. You can't know what's going on in a person's life. Maybe they have an asshole boss who hates them and is looking to fire them at the first opportunity. In that case, interrupting their sleep may well be endangering their livelihood through no fault of their own. Thus the comparison I made.

If one has talked to all of their neighbors within range of the fireworks and found that they aren't causing problems (commendable if so), then fine. But realistically the people who set off fireworks until 2 am aren't doing that, they are taking the stance of "I don't care about the impact to you, I want to have fun". That is selfish and not ok in my book. Heck, that doesn't even accomplish social cohesion like you are arguing for - it causes divides between neighbors (because one of them is being an asshole to the others), not brings them together.

they are taking the stance of "I don't care about the impact to you, I want to have fun".

You have discovered the entire point of Independence Day, which celebrates exactly this on a nation-state level.

The crazy part is that the problem is obviously not the scheduled 20 minute municipal fireworks show that ends at 10:00 once a year. If you have sensitivities, you can just go on a drive for half an hour. The problem is the assholes setting off fireworks for months on either side at unpredictable timings. The first is enjoyed by many, the second is enjoyed only by the few setting them off. The first is legible, the second is not.

What is to be done? Clearly we must do something, and shuttering the scheduled show is something, so we must do it. How much will this help the people with sensitivities? Not at all, of course, because they suffer due to the second thing, not the first thing. But we're obviously unwilling or incapable of doing anything more about the second thing, so we'll pretend that this somehow makes it better.

To me it pattern matches with a bootleggers and baptists situation, but I can't immediately tell who the bootleggers are here. Is DJI behind this?

To be clear I in no way support stopping municipal fireworks shows. I'm referring purely to people setting them off in the street in front of their house, which has a significant component of antisocial jerks in my city. Official fireworks shows (municipal or otherwise) are perfectly fine and need no action taken at all.

What is to be done? Clearly we must do something

Why must we do something?

Or are you describing someone else’s thinking? Sorry, it just isn’t clear to me if the quoted bit is your own thinking on the subject.

That's the thinking of the people pushing for shutting down municipal fireworks shows.

Meh. Where I live there are four days a year when it’s legal to shoot fireworks(two state independence days, fourth, and new years). There will be fireworks shot off the day before and after, of course, but not for months at a time. Not worth worrying about.

Well I envy you the restraint of your neighbors. I am not so fortunate.

Remarkable considering you (I think?) live in a Hispanic neighborhood. In my heavily Hispanic neighborhood, I can expect to hear fireworks every night for many months around July 4.

I live in southern California and fireworks are going off for about a week prior and a week after the fourth pretty consistently. Though there's not a large Hispanic population in my immediate area but in any case it certainly is not just the day before or after. Last week I thought there was a series of gunshots going off until I realized the fourth was coming up. It doesn't bother me terribly except when its past midnight.

I saw a news story yesterday about California getting its biggest wildfire of the year so far starting last Wednesday. It struck me that if they ran a fake story about a huge wildfire starting the week before the fourth it might help people who start fires with fireworks show some restraint, but then I thought who am I kidding? It's possible people might think protecting the nerves of animals and veterans is a better way to tell people to stop than just telling them they might start a fire.

I've also been seeing the "worst wildfire of the year" in California articles. I keep thinking how LA almost burned to the ground in January and wondering how worst is being measured.

"Worst" is measured in acres, in this case, 70,800 of them.

I live in a mixed neighborhood. It will, like most such neighborhoods, be clearly Hispanic eventually, but for now thé children playing soccer/basketball in the street are white.

In Texas fireworks go on sale thé day after Christmas, February 25th, April 16, and st John’s eve(or respect life day as a state holiday). They are hard cut off on New Year’s Eve, Texas Independence Day, San Jacinto day, and Fourth of July. This controls thé festivities. Possession or personal use of fireworks out of season is a minor thing- but dealers operating out of season it is not. Hence fireworks run out by, like, today.

It's just yet another step in the direction of forcing American society to restructure for the benefit of dog owners. I've posted before about my utter disdain for modern dog culture and the strong correlation between selfishness/narcissism with dog ownership. They have already turned my city into their personal open-air toilet and have made nearly every space "dog-friendly" despite signs politely requesting otherwise. The difference here is that this isn't just some rule or norm they can repeatedly violate without asking until society throws its hands up at the futility of enforcement. For once, they are on the side opposed to the social norm defectors and need top-down enforcement, but have their heads too far up their dogs' asses to see the irony.

I can agree that the continued fireworks past midnight does get mildly annoying, but it is absolutely nothing compared to the year-round barking these dog owners inflict.

futility of enforcement

I actually think enforcement for this is incredibly easy.

I live in downtown Toronto, I have a dog. My neighborhood is overrun with dogs as it's all mid/late 20s yuppies in condos that are too small for kids.

There was a park that became an unofficial dog off-leash park while the nearby dog park was renovated for a year. Once the dog park opened people didn't stop going to the "unofficial" one. Eventually, by-law officers started doing occasional driveby's, and would attempt to ticket people. I have no idea if they actually ticketed anyone, but it had a profound chilling effect on people using that park as an offleash area.

And they half-assed it! Just hire more by-law officers and have them circulate. The evidence is clear, people do NOT respond to the severity of punishment, anyone breaking rules breaks them without worrying about the consequences as they think they wont get caught. What changes behavior is the assessed risk % of getting caught. So increase enforcement in a visible way, and watch people adapt.

The problem is, that requires taking action and doing things, and western governments at all levels are profoundly allergic to doing things.

This is a side note, but I actually had an incredibly sad related moment last winter. My girlfriend, dog, and I were walking through a park that has a skating rink. The Zamboni had created a snow mountain beside it. I have incredibly fond memories of playing on these as a kid. It was surrounded by other optimal parent age young adults like us, all letting their dogs play on the snow mountain. There were no children in sight anywhere in the park (it was morning, to be fair). Our dog had a great time running around it, but holy fuck was it sad seeing such a visual representation of the collapse in our societies fertility.

condos that are too small for kids.

? Kids don't take up very much space. Certainly less than normally sized dogs(not counting the small ratlike creatures which seem inexplicably popular these days).

While you can technically fit a kid anywhere, I'm not with you on the overall point.

My dogs footprint in my apartment is his bed, and his food/water bowl. Also a small box on a shelf with brush/harness/nail clippers/whatever

A kid is a crib, diapers, clothes, toys, a stroller, and I'm sure a ton of other gear I haven't considered. They need a whole room too eventually (or immediately? Idk what the meta on co sleeping is these days).

Also not to get into the whole child rearing in modernity thing again, but I'm just observing that dogs outnumber children in my neighborhood at least 5:1, and I live across the street from a playground so it might be even worse.

I can agree that the continued fireworks past midnight does get mildly annoying, but it is absolutely nothing compared to the year-round barking these dog owners inflict.

This is a crazy take. Fireworks (the mortar kind, which is what people around here do despite them being illegal) are an order of magnitude louder than dogs. Even if your neighbor's dog is barking a lot, barking utterly pales in comparison to fireworks in terms of how disruptive it is due to the massive difference in volume. It's made even worse by the fact that people choose to set off fireworks. At least a dog is an independent creature you can't control, but the fireworks people are deliberately choosing to be assholes disrupting their neighbors. Here people were setting off fireworks until 2 am! Fucking 2 am! Not only that, but people here start setting off fireworks 3-4 weeks before July 4, and continue for 3-4 weeks after, so it's not like it is just one night of this nonsense.

I would've had some sympathy for your argument if you just claimed that the two were equivalently disruptive. But claiming that fireworks are "absolutely nothing" in comparison to dogs barking is not the remotest bit reasonable. And it's not like most people have dogs that bark all the time anyways - I have had one neighbor, in my 40 years on this earth, that had such a dog. And yeah it's annoying. Perhaps one might even say those people are irresponsible and shouldn't own a dog. But they are the minority. Are you really trying to argue that fireworks are just desserts when they punish not only the irresponsible, but also the responsible owners and those who don't even have dogs? Because that would be completely disproportionate.

Even if your neighbor's dog is barking a lot, barking utterly pales in comparison to fireworks in terms of how disruptive it is due to the massive difference in volume

I don't know where you live, but I hear barking on a daily basis much louder than any of the firecrackers that went off this weekend (at least accounting for distance; how loud a mortar is from equivalent distance is frankly irrelevant to me unless my neighbor is literally setting them off from his porch). At least with fireworks, it's one or two nights per year and confined to a predictable 6 hour span. The barking occurs on a daily basis, at random, and extends indefinitely. Here, people's dogs bark at any hour. I've been woken up by howling at 3-4 am on a work day multiple times. You could ask me to choose fireworks every Friday if it meant dogs were banned from residential areas and I'd take that in a heartbeat. Over the span of a full year, there really is no comparison when it comes to which is more disruptive to my life.

At least a dog is an independent creature you can't control ... fireworks people are deliberately choosing to be assholes disrupting their neighbors

People choose to own dogs. They choose to ignore properly training them. They choose to continue to keep them even when they are a persistent nuisance to their neighbors. This attitude that you can't just get rid of your personal vanity project is common among dog owners. If your neighbor has a car horn that goes off at random times for random durations, I think you would be right to say it should either be fixed or trashed.

Are you really trying to argue that fireworks are just desserts when they punish not only the irresponsible, but also the responsible owners and those who don't even have dogs?

Nowhere in my post did I support the use of fireworks past a certain hour. I explicitly said I find them annoying as well. I've found many dog owners and their allies have a tendency to get extremely defensive and treat the slightest pushback on even a subset of behaviors as an attack. I never said that I want fireworks in order to punish dog owners, but somehow by simply saying that my personal frustration with dog barking is greater than my frustration with fireworks you jumped to that conclusion.

just wanted to say, extremely here for the anti-dog content. I love dogs, but like 5-10% of people max who own them should own them, and you should have to have a kid or be a single male (saying this somewhat sarcastically, but not completely).

This is one of my favorite blog articles on the subject: https://mattlakeman.org/2020/03/21/against-dog-ownership/

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