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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   4441 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for March 5, 2023

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There's something I wanted to talk about for a while. Desserts.

No, not the arid terrains with sand dunes and camels. The sweet things people sometimes eat at the end of the meal. Those ones.

So, when I came to live in the US (a while ago), I found the dessert game in the most restaurants - even upscale ones (not the Michelin level - I am not rich enough to go to those) - is pitifully bad. In general, in the States, you can have a good meal in many places, serving wide variety of cuisines. I have had hundreds of excellent meals. Finding an excellent dessert was much harder.

Most places have chocolate cake, maybe a cheesecake, maybe ice cream. Crème brûlée if they are fancy (over half of them won't make it right though). Maybe couple more options, but that's it. Nothing to write home about.

Cafés are even worse. Unless it's one of those rare specialized shops, you get muffins, croissants, maybe lemon loafs, and those enormous cookies whose point I still can't get. If they feel fancy, maybe some French macarons. But usually that's it. For any real variety - and the world of pastry and patisserie is no less varied than the world of main dishes - you need to go to a specialized shop. Which are quite rare. I have probably a dozen of cake shops around - but I don't need a whole frickin wedding cake! I just want something small and nice to have with my coffee. But within at least 20 minute drive of my place, I see maybe one place with decent variety (which is also closed half of the week - probably because lack of patrons?). Despite over half a million people living around. Back when I lived in Silicon Valley (~3 mln people?), I knew some decent places, but also not too many, especially outside of SF.

So why is this happening? Do Americans hate desserts? Do they just not care? Or am I just not looking at the right places and it is my ignorance that is causing me to suffer (as usual)?

I remember when I first visited the US (even longer while ago, over 20 years now) it was nearly the same situation with beer. It's not that you couldn't get a decent beer at all. It's that you can't expect a random or even upscale place to have even a half decent beer game, and you needed to go to special places for weird people to get a good beer. Now the situation has been, thankfully, greatly changed. Even in a random pub you can have one-two decent beers on draft, more in cans/bottles, any self-respecting restaurant would have some local crafts and some nationally popular choices, a good pub would have dozens, and it's not unheard of to encounter a multi-page beer menu in a non-specialized place. And even the most mundane supermarkets would bother to present a respectable selection.

Could this happen to the sweets too? I understand the complexities (beer is much easier to pack and preserve than sweets), but maybe there's still hope?

I remember listening to an econ podcast (I want to say either Freakonomics or Planet Money) that was exploring some things about how restaurant menus and pricing work, probably centered around how they work in the US. The big question was "what's up with free bread or chips and salsa? Why are restaurants giving away free product that just fills you up and keeps you from spending more money?" The answer was "so you don't order dessert". What restaurants (particularly large American restaurant chains) want is to turn tables over as fast as possible. They really don't want you spending two hours at a table ordering an appetizer and an entree and a dessert (which is kind of a stark contrast with my personal experience of dining in the UK, where restaurant table reservations are for fixed time spans, usually 90 minutes, and they seem to get offended if each person doesn't order three courses). Most restaurants really can't make desserts profitable, they can't sell them for what it costs to make them and keep them around, plus you're occupying the table that could instead by used by people who are going to order a main course that they can charge 3-4 times as much for but ultimately probably costs the same to make and serve. However, most sit-down restaurants feel like they have to have desserts on the menu because it's just expected of them. They just don't feel any real incentive to make them spectacular.

A few other things that could be at play, just off the top of my head:

  1. Sugar and fat could just be so great at being superstimuli that you don't really need to make them all that great to satisfy most people.

  2. Regarding the lack of variety, I can at least personally attest that on the rare occasions that I do decide to order dessert at a restaurant, I want to make sure I'm going to actually like it, so I'm less likely to go for something I don't recognize.

so you don't order dessert

The economcs (or maybe just proprieter preference) must have reqlly shifted since the days of the dessert cart/front of restaurant dessert display, then.

Depends on the place, I guess.

The better cafes around here definitely put their fancy cakes on prominent display. Mexican restaurants, not so much.

I remember when I first visited the US (even longer while ago, over 20 years now) it was nearly the same situation with beer. (...) Now the situation has been, thankfully, greatly changed.

Not it hasn't. You get to choose between an overhopped hipster ale and an overly sweet lager. It's supposed to be the other way around, you heathens!

I certainly see where you're going there - overhopping is a thing, and even I, who actually loves bitter beers, need to watch out. But many places helpfully publish IBUs, and for those that don't there are the wonders of Internet (like Untappd) and even when I do regular shopping between Costco, Whole Foods and couple of smaller local stores, I can pick up something decent that doesn't go over the deep end. And it become common for restaurants to have actual beer menu where the choice isn't just "Guinness or lager?" - so while the phenomena you mention are real, it's possible to avoid them and still have a good choice in beer.

The trouble is when you go a hip place and look at the (helpful) IBU ratings on the 20 beer menu -- only to find that there are 19 overhopped lager/IPA choices, plus one boring lager.

So why is this happening? Do Americans hate desserts? Do they just not care? Or am I just not looking at the right places and it is my ignorance that is causing me to suffer (as usual)?

I mostly hate desserts, yeah. Not quite literally, they're obviously delicious, but the tradeoff between calories and enjoyability for me is very low relative to other options. I would pretty much always have more fries, more chips, more meat, more cheese curds, or some other savory morsel than switch over to sweet stuff. I eat about 3,000 calories per day, so it's not like I'm really restricted here, I just always prefer savory things, unless my wife baked something and it's already in front of me. I have no idea about the broader scene, just providing a single anecdata point as someone that genuinely could not possibly care less what's on the dessert menu.

What would you consider a good selection of desserts? I took a look at a fancy Moscow restaurant's dessert menu (it specializes in fish, so its selection of desserts should be good, but not stellar), here's what they offer:

  • Basque cheesecake

  • Crème brûlée

  • Something weird

  • Pistachio strudel

  • Pavlova

  • Mochi

  • Choux

  • Lemon tart

  • Baba au rhum

  • Ice cream

I assume you mean Moscow, Russia, not Moscow, Idaho? ;) I've not been to Moscow (the former) for a couple of decades, and probably won't ever be again until a certain guy who will remain nameless in this topic will meet the fires of hell awaiting for him, but I remember the food quality there was pretty decent, including the dessert game. Of this menu, I'd say a good start. For myself, I'd add a couple of cake types, maybe some eclair, some flan or maybe pana cotta, maybe a mousse. The main thing though for me I won't ask a lot from any single restaurant - just as I won't ask a single restaurant to have all the variety of cuisines at once. I'm rather looking at the aggregate choice among the various restaurants. So, I'd rate the selection for a restaurant above as decent - and provided there are a dozen restaurants around each providing 10 dessert options, which are not all the same among them - I'd say I'm pretty good on that. But on my observation, that's not what is happening - at least not in my experience.

P.S. BTW, coincidentally that reminded me of a local Russian restaurant within 10 minutes drive of me. Their selections: honey cake, pavlova, chocolate ganache cake, lemon mousse, cookie platter. Not too bad, actually. 5 options, and neither of them repeats what other restaurants offer. I rate it as a good contribution to the cause.

I've heard Moscow, Idaho is a QAnon stronghold these days.

The semi-cult with Doug Wilson? Yeah that isn't Q-anon. It also isn't much more cultish than your average megachurch.

That’s Langley.

I didn't think QAnon is a geographically localized phenomenon. Also, Moscow ID is a college town, in 2020 the majority voted for Biden, while Idaho went 2x to Trump. So I'd rather expect to find BlueAnon than QAnon there.

All I can recommend is try flourless chocolate cake at restraunts for the good dessert opinion.

I've been meaning to make a long post about why it's not possible to get a good cake (at a reasonable price) for a while.

Sounds like an interesting topic, as someone who not good at baking I'm curious to learn more.

Here is an amazing chocolate cake mix, if you're looking for something you can make at home. I have high standards for chocolate cake and am happy to make one from scratch, but this mix does a darn good job. You'll still need to make the frosting yourself - I'd recommend a swiss meringue buttercream.

IMO box mixes are never worth it. They aren't actually any easier, since making a basic cake is already super duper easy. Dump ingredients in a bowl, mix, pour batter and bake. The only thing that a box mix saves you is measuring out dry ingredients. And more often than not, you're going to have a better cake if you make it from scratch! Box mixes are truly a ripoff which doesn't add value and only preys on novices who don't know better, imo.

That was certainly my belief in the past. This mix changed my mind.

Here is the recipe I use when I'm making a cake from scratch. It takes me about a half hour to put together (not counting baking time). The mix I linked to takes 5 minutes. Very little difference in the final result.

Now I'm hungry for chocolate cake.

I've made that recipe, actually. It took me almost no effort to put together, lol. Like I said, with a basic cake there's no need to follow the instructions about "do this, then this, then this". Just dump all the ingredients in your bowl, mix, and you're done. That's why I think box mixes are a ripoff, because making a cake from scratch is every bit as easy (unless you're trying to make a more advanced recipe like genoise or something, but a box mix isn't going to help you there).

It's not necessarily about ease of use. This video explains that mix cakes contain emulsifiers that allow for textures that would otherwise be difficult or impossible to achieve. And since these emulsifiers coat the flour at the particulate level, it's not the kind of thing you can do outside of an industrial process. Whether or not you actually like this effect is a matter of personal taste, but mix cakes and scratch cakes are decidedly not the exact same thing.

The mix @janeerie linked to doesn't have any emulsifiers on the ingredients list.

TIL, fair enough.

Non american here so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The US has good desserts. The ones that stood out to me when I visited;

  • New York Cheesecake. This shit was absolute crack for me, even the 9 usd Walmart ones. I hardly know anyone who doesnt like cheesecake. Even Pakistani villagers who turn their noses at most Western foods lost their minds having cheese cake for the first time.

  • Pies. Personally not a big fan of the supposedly very American Apple pie, but good blueberry, pecan and sweet potato are worth seeking out imo. There are more and more variations the more south you go.

  • Brownies.

  • Cannolis, youd find good ones in NYC

  • Donuts, the good yeast ones not Dunkins and god forbid not Tim Hortons.

  • Pancakes and waffles drowned in butter and maple syrup. Sorry not breakfast, these are desserts. Just dont be a barbarian and have it with scrambled eggs in the same plate like a lot of Americans do.

I know Americans have a tendency towards excess but the deserts are good if you go for a reasonable portion size without drowning it in ice cream and chocolate syrup.

The best US food I had overall was in the state of Georgia, the south knows how to cook.

Don't forget custard stands and ice cream shoppes, which should be considered desserts under any definition.

Personally not a big ice cream guy, i can tolerate a scoop max if the conditions are ideal such as the ideal oce cream weather and its high quality and not a sugar bomb.

TBH I hate donuts - way too sweet, way too much fat. Same for American type pancakes - though crepes are good, one of my favorites, with the right filling (no Nutella, please!) Brownies - well, if you don't oversugar it and give it a good balance, it's a good one, but common mainstream brownie is not very good either. Cheesecakes - yes, sure, I've had excellent ones. Good, solid contender - but it's like having Heineken beer. Nothing bad about it as an option, just doesn't make the beer game alone.

Pies I'm kinda ambivalent about. Some pies are very good, but most common ones I find average at best. I know "The American Pie" is kinda cultural foundation, but I personally do not worship at its altar. A good one is a nice complement to a home meal, but in a fancy restaurant I'd expect something more. Unless it's some kind of spectacular once-a-lifetime one, but I never had any of those.

Cannolis - I didn't try many, I've had some pretty good ones, which I liked, but I think I need to go to New York to taste really good ones. I'll add it to the list of things do to in New York.

Even Pakistani villagers who turn their noses at most Western foods lost their minds having cheese cake for the first time.

I remember an episode from King's Dark Tower series, when the Gunslinger gets into our universe and tastes Coca-Cola for the first time. He is so completely overwhelmed by the sugary taste that he asks - given there's this thing is so widely available, why people would need any other drugs? Unfortunately, to my palate it feels kinda gross now... Not the cake, the sugar bombing.

I would say that American desserts fall into that category of foods where the median sample is alright/mediocre but the good one is extraordinary. While youre in NYC visit Clinton Street Baking Co. I think their pancakes might change your mind, Not the typical sugar bomb. Ive been years ago not sure if it survived covid though.

The afformentioned quality especially applies to donuts. A good donut and a bad one lets say from dunkin isnt even the same food.

Ultimately you might have to just accept that American desserts won't be that good. I rate East Asian cuisines savory dishes as the best around, but neither the Chinese, Koreans or Thais can come up with a good dessert, Chinese desserts range from mediocre to horrific ( "Sweet fungus soup", yes literal mushrooms in sugar water). And seriously wtf is with the hype behind Mochis. Even though Youtube tells me Koreans and Japanese are quite good at recreating Western desserts.

I think sweet fungus soup is something where the translation makes it sound worse than it actually is. People probably imagine a portobello mushroom in sugar syrup or something, but in reality the fungus is a crunchy/chewy, translucent thing that pairs reasonably well with a (mildly, by US standards) sweet soup that also usually contains stuff like lotus seeds. I wouldn’t really describe it as a mushroom at all. I’m not saying it’s amazing, but it can be a positive addition to a meal.

As far as East Asian desserts go, I think Taiwan makes a decent showing. They just tend to be sold at specialized shops and not as the last course in a regular restaurant.

I happen to like Mochis btw. But I tasted actual hand-made mochis (and I mean the traditional way, with wooden mallets and all) and mochis from Japanese shops that specialize in making mochis - this is completely different business from what you could get in the supermarket or even average restaurant. It's not my most favorite dessert, but it's alright if you know where to get it. But yes, when I go to Korean or Japanese restaurant, or Thai, I don't expect too much on the dessert side, and it's ok, I understand their approach may be different and their "sweet fungus" may be weird for me. But the West has a very rich dessert tradition that I am completely in tune with, so from a Western-type restaurant I certainly would have much higher expectations.

No, not the arid terrains with sand dunes and camels.

That's deserts, not desserts.

Pedantry aside, I've certainly never found desserts at restaurants particularly lacking. Yeah if you go to Chilis or something you're going to get nothing special. But that's because as a restaurant it's nothing special. On the other hand if I go to a really nice restaurant, I get really nice desserts that knock my socks off.

One thing which may be contributing to what you have experienced is that cooking savory dishes and making desserts are two somewhat different skill sets. Someone who can make good main dishes hasn't necessarily practiced making good desserts.

Americans certainly don't hate desserts though, why the heck do you think we're so fat? It's not because we're eating too much savory food, I tell you that much.

One thing which may be contributing to what you have experienced is that cooking savory dishes and making desserts are two somewhat different skill sets.

Oh I know. But I'm not talking about Chili's. I'm talking about restaurants with $100+ steaks. It's not that I go to those every week, but I've been to some. Their dessert game is slightly better, but not by much. It's not that they can't afford a pastry chef that can bring it to the next level. It's that they don't think they need to.

why the heck do you think we're so fat?

Cheeseburgers and hippo sized cola? ;)

BTW, my secondary complaint - which is overshadowed by the primary one, of course - is that those American desserts that I manage to get are almost always over-sugared. No, dude, "sweet" doesn't mean you should put as much sugar in it as you can without it being just called "a blob of sugar". You can make sweet things that have balanced taste not overwhelmed by sugar. If fact, that's how it should be done - but rarely how it is done. I mean, again, it's not universal - I've had very good ones, but the overall tendency is "it's supposed to be sweet - dump another sack of sugar into it, people love sugar!"

Cheeseburgers and hippo sized cola? ;)

The latter, for sure. Drinking sugar is a great way to get fat.

I share your complaints. Most desserts are far too sweet for me, and when I make recipes at home, I usually halve the sugar called for to no ill effect.

Oh I know. But I'm not talking about Chili's. I'm talking about restaurants with $100+ steaks. It's not that I go to those every week, but I've been to some. Their dessert game is slightly better, but not by much. It's not that they can't afford a pastry chef that can bring it to the next level. It's that they don't think they need to.

Fair enough, so we're talking nice restaurants. But in that case I honestly don't know what to tell you. I've never had bad or even just OK desserts at a restaurant like that. They're always quite good in my experience.

Maybe it's because you're going to steakhouses?

Steakhouses both seem highly formulaic and the food is so heavy and the portions so large that people usually don't really want a dessert, so it becomes a bit of an afterthought.

Not only steakhouses, I just used steaks as an example because it's very comparable - one would know how much steaks costs in various kinds of restaurants. If I used some specialty dish it'd be harder to compare how fancy the restaurant is. But, tbh, I can do a dessert after a steak - I usually go for a smaller but tastier steak rather than a slab of meat that would put me in a coma for the rest of the day. That of course unless it's a Brazilian restaurant where all hope is lost and there I don't even dream of eating anything but meat (and a bit of veggies of course).

Honestly not being able to get good pain au chocolat in this country is the only reason I'm not obese, so maybe it's for the best.

Anyone here done restaurant work? Don't remember most people I ate with ordering dessert, other than kids having an ice cream or something while the adults had coffee or another few drinks. I certainly never had room for anything after the portion size of a typical us restaurant meal.

Yes, I have worked as a waiter. The vast majority don’t order desserts, either due to portion sizes or because a typical dessert menu can be replicated at home for much cheaper(brownies, cookies, and ice cream are readily available at grocery stores and dirt cheap).

I certainly never had room for anything after the portion size of a typical us restaurant meal.

That could be a problem, US portions tend to be humongous. But if I knew there's a good dessert available, I could probably pass the marshmallow test on that. As it is, there's not much point anyway...

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