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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   36181 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

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So...more people have dropped Kanye West in the wake of his "anti-semitic comments" (it took more digging than it should have to actually see what he said - a few articles just leave it incredibly vague which is...problematic). In this case Anna Wintour/Vogue and CAA, both of which are hugely influential, even though CAA only repped him for touring.

To tie it into another recent trend: the Floyd family is allegedly thinking of suing him for suggesting Floyd died of fentanyl though I don't know on what grounds? I guess people have been emboldened by the Alex Jones verdict?

A while ago a rapper called DaBaby went through a similar thing where he refused to apologize until the consequences got too serious - I personally was interested in how far someone could take it. But the outcome proved that "cancel culture" isn't really a paper tiger that only works when people play along because they're too spineless. Nope, it'll work regardless.

This is an interesting test case because Kanye is basically as close to "uncancellable" as a person in a hugely PR-focused industry like music (and fashion) gets. He has a bunch of rabid fans who will buy his music or gear and he's already so vastly rich and famous that he'll likely always make waves. And , according to him, he has an ironclad contract with Adidas

Presumably he knew all this when he - once again - decided to say something he almost certainly knew would bring controversy. But, unlike the "slavery was a choice" or all of the other shit he did, this one is actually leading to the most serious consequences we've seen yet. Ironically for saying Jews cancel people who don't play by the agenda.

Recall also that Nick Cannon eventually was forced to apologize not for racist, Scientology-esque pseudoscience about white people, but specifically for annoying Jews.

It's a shame we don't have a way to see what the median person thinks about this (it's all just elite shunning and op-eds right now) because my first impression when I saw that happen to Cannon is "this is bad for everyone. White people are seeing this - they're basically seeing that anti-white racism is fine and the only whites you don't get to be racist towards are Jews". I wonder how black people will feel if this is what kills Kanye and not...y'know, going against the strongest racial partisan preference in the country.

It's a shame we don't have a way to see what the median person thinks about this (it's all just elite shunning and op-eds right now)

I would find it obvious that the median person agrees with the "elite shunning and op-eds". Can you explain the thought process that would lead a "median person" to a different conclusion?

So The Gap is now pulling all of his products

"In September, Gap announced ending its Yeezy Gap partnership," the statement began. "Our former partner's recent remarks and behavior further underscore why. We are taking immediate steps to remove Yeezy Gap product from our stores and we have shut down Yeezygap.com."

Between this and Adidas dropping him and saying that they actually own the designs to the Yeezys implies Kanye is deeply in the hole and bleeding out. That Adidas deal accounted for the majority of his net worth and now his other deals are falling through and all of the work he already did with Adidas must stay with them. God only knows how much income he's going to lose which will also shrink his ability to do anything else (like say...make his own shoes).

And we don't even know where this'll stop. I think Spotify hasn't said anything cause, last time they tried to remove a black artist, they got pushback from major rappers but we can't rule out that even his music career - his motte from which he spawned his billion dollar endeavors - could be extirpated.

Adidas has dropped Kanye West following growing agitation from organized Jewish groups. The move is expected to reduce Adidas revenue by about $250 million.

@freemcflurry is pessimistic that white people will wake up to what's going on. Maybe the prospect of the average person getting any sort of red-pill from this is overly optimistic. But I think there are smart, high-agency people closer to the fringes, and in communities like this one, that may increasingly realize they can't turn a blind eye to this dynamic in the culture war. I even think there are many good-faith Jews in communities like this one who may increasingly be willing to admit to this toxic dynamic between Jews and Gentiles in the West, rather than just dismiss it as the isolated behavior of a few fanatics and interest groups that they don't endorse.

In the past, highly public and economically costly sanctions like these were not even necessary. The fact that Jewish interests find it increasingly necessary to exercise hard-power to eliminate any sort of criticism of their behavior is a sign that these criticisms are not going away. These criticisms, which Jews call "anti-semitism", are anti-fragile. The more they tighten their grip in the form of economic sanctions, online censorship, social credit sanctions, and lawfare, the more they are validating the claims they are fighting against.

I can't remember which, but there's a mod around here who uses the "da Joos" thing to basically try to neutralize criticism of Jews in conversation. I have to think that he or she is going to think twice before dismissing criticism of Jewish influence as some insane conspiracy theory. This $250 million sanction against Adidas for having the unfortunate luck of having its influencer direct his criticism towards Jews instead of exclusively white people must make it harder for smart and honest people to dismiss those criticisms out-of-hand.

Would you not agree that "I'm going death con 3 On JEWISH PEOPLE" merits a stronger noun than "criticism"? Perhaps "hatred"?

That tweet doesn't strike me as even coming close - within the same universe - to justifying the reaction to it. We are talking about costs in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Cancelled projects, dropped contracts, boycotts, calls to ban his music on Google and Spotify.

You can use the old 4chan trick of replacing "white" with "Jewish" and asking yourself if the reaction would be remotely similar if that had been his tweet instead.

Economically: There's a lot of money based on his personal brand, and he just dramatically reduced the value of the latter. I find it reasonable that the market would react accordingly.

Practically: "I'm going death con 3 On JEWISH PEOPLE" (henceforth, "his words") aren't acceptable to - rough approximation - anyone, and he hasn't issued retractions or showed signs of backing down in any way (which would have been nice, I do like his music). The straightforward conclusion is thus that anyone would stop associating with him. Which includes people with a lot of money and power. Hence the reaction.

Morally: To misquote an old guy, his words lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value, so I don't know what he was expecting.

Regarding your "old 4chan trick": as a preamble, the fact that it's called an "old 4chan trick" tells me all I need to know about whether the people behind it were genuinely interested in collaboratively discovering truth through discussion (hint: hahaha; and to follow the rule on speaking plainly: not at all). Anyway:

But we don't live in either of those two alternate realities.

I find it reasonable that the market would react accordingly.

Who says I find the market response unreasonable? Adidas for example is responding to market forces. It's the market forces that are the problem. On the contrary, I find it to be a useful quantifier for demonstrating the market cost of criticizing Jews.

There is a gigantic market cost to criticizing Jews. At the same time, there is a giant market benefit to criticizing white identity- with Jews themselves often investing the most money and influence in signal-boosting those criticisms of Gentile culture within popular culture.

This behavior of influential Jews- wherein they invest heavily in patronizing all manner of criticism Gentile culture, history, and morality, and then act hysterically when any measure of criticism is directed towards themselves, is on full display for everyone to see. You can do what Fridman did and just invoke history to try to justify the behavior. And you can try to justify it, but there is no longer any room to deny that this behavior exists and is a powerful undercurrent in the culture war.

I must admit I'm not seeing the distinction, if you're intending any, between market response, market forces, market cost, etc.

What I mean to say is if someone says "I'm going death con 3 On JEWISH PEOPLE", this will piss people off, and they'll stop doing business with that person. Which part of that do you think should not be happening?

The more they tighten their grip in the form of economic sanctions, online censorship, social credit sanctions, and lawfare, the more they are validating the claims they are fighting against.

Apt reference to the Social Credit idea.

Would you say the same logic applies to Xi?

Yet he has become the most powerful Chinese leader since Mao, and all of the (doomed to be destroyed by the West) Chinese civilization now revolves around his whims.

There's a lesson here somewhere. Probably this one: power wins. Its exercise validates protests, but only up to the point where it can be plausibly resisted; past that, people fall in line and learn to excuse the blatantly inexcusable, or perish.

Power wins, but not all power has the same nature. Xi projects power, and I don't think he wants to leave doubt as to where power in China lies. But if you watch the Lex Fridman interview with Kanye, Fridman refuses to even acknowledge any factual basis or underlying reality to what Kanye describes as the "Jewish media." Fridman doesn't dispute the fact of the matter, he just invokes the Holocaust to assert that it's wrong for Kanye to call Jewish people Jewish.

Overt exercises of power like this are contrary to the strategies that have served them well throughout history. Jews cannot exert a Xi-level of power projection in the West, for a number of reasons. At the same time, they cannot allow anti-semitism to grow in public consciousness. It's a delicate balance, and one that is made much more delicate when you get goofy Gentiles like Kanye West and Whoopie Goldberg who do not understand the game they are playing.

Its exercise validates protests, but only up to the point where it can be plausibly resisted; past that, people fall in line and learn to excuse the blatantly inexcusable, or perish.

The other option is to neither protest nor fall in line, but to silently join a growing set of noticers who are unhappy with what they perceive as an unfair arrangement. Kipling's poem captures that mode well.

But this entire affair should not be overstated, I don't think it's going to change anything except slightly grow the set of noticers. Noticing is not the same thing as acquiring power, that's very true. But history shows it only takes a surprisingly small portion of a population to accept a taboo before it inevitably becomes mainstream consensus.

The move is expected to reduce Adidas revenue by about $250 million.

Apparently 8% of their revenue. So...yeah, cancel culture is not a paper tiger.

The fact that Jewish interests find it increasingly necessary to exercise hard-power to eliminate any sort of criticism of their behavior is a sign that these criticisms are not going away.

Or that they have gathered sufficient power that they no longer feel it is necessary to operate in a non-overt manner.

If white people were capable of noticing the difference between what you're allowed to say about them vs any other race in America then they would have seen it a long time ago. I would be completely blown away if this was the thing that changed anyone's mind.

The greatest influence on other people is other people. Do you really give a shit if some guy you don't know shows up to a black tie function in shorts and a t-shirt? If it's your black tie function, or someone you care about maybe, but otherwise generally no. But you know other people expect you to dislike it - it isn't proper - and so you are outraged. All that is required to change it is someone ostentatiously doing otherwise.

Someone with power and influence making a big show of refusing to play ball makes it more acceptable overnight. It starts a chain reaction, people follow suit and soon a critical mass of people refuse to play ball, and the rule gets abolished.

Kanye is powerful, influential and, most importantly in modern America, of the caste which is allowed to talk about race. I don't think this will change any minds, but it has already had an impact - the way he went about it made it practically impossible to talk around - although note how hard the media is trying.

Funny how you can literally traffic and kidnap women and still have plenty of work in Hollywood, yet you say something criticizing a certain group and that’s a bridge too far eh?

This is not that surprising, considering not only the group that the person(s) who trafficked and kidnapped women belongs to, but also that people nowadays don't take physical, material violence seriously and put far more weight on to emotional "violence" (i.e. opinions they do not like) despite the fact that words have less material impact than, you know, actual physical action.

So...more people have dropped Kanye West in the wake of his "anti-semitic comments" (it took more digging than it should have to actually see what he said - a few articles just leave it incredibly vague which is...problematic). In this case Anna Wintour/Vogue and CAA, both of which are hugely influential, even though CAA only repped him for touring.

He should have enough money to either buy or create his own agency , venue, or never have to tour again. Good riddance. He does not need them. His brand is big enough. Being dropped only proves his point.

or all of the other shit he did, this one is actually leading to the most serious consequences we've seen yet. Ironically for saying Jews cancel people who don't play by the agenda.

Probably because he refused to apologize. Had he apologized quickly, maybe some of this could have been avoided. Good for him to stand his ground.

I personally was interested in how far someone could take it.

It depends on how much you nan afford to lose. Everoyne has a price

To tie it into another recent trend: the Floyd family is allegedly thinking of suing him for suggesting Floyd died of fentanyl though I don't know on what grounds? I guess people have been emboldened by the Alex Jones verdict?

Probably. The Jones verdict showed that claiming trauma can be very profitable, but obv. collecting is harder than winning.

He should have enough money to either buy or create his own agency , venue, or never have to tour again.

Depends how hard they want to cancel him. All the money in the world doesn't help if payment processors, retailers and local governments refuse to work with you. He'd still get to live a luxurious lifestyle but he wouldn't have any reach beyond the 6 people who read his blog that's constantly DDOSed.

Kanye is a smart man and alt tech is… well getting better.

He can find a way around it if he wants.

"slavery was a choice"

What he said was basically paraphrasing Bob Marley's Redemption Song (which was basically lifted from a speech by Marcus Garvey).

“We are going to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery because whilst others might free the body, none but ourselves can free the mind.”

-Marcus Garvey

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; None but ourselves can free our minds.

-Bob Marley

Kanye was saying that 400 years of slavery is a choice, not that chattel slavery was. 400 years leads up to today. He's saying that people are mental slaves today, and you can choose to set your mind free.

Recall also that Nick Cannon eventually was forced to apologize not for racist, Scientology-esque pseudoscience about white people, but specifically for annoying Jews.

Nick and Kanye are basically parroting a lot of Louis Farrakhan, Nation of Islam, Black Hebrew Israelites, and similar black supremacists. Did Malcom X have some controversial statements about the Jews that were in a similar vein?

Anyways, I think the root of this is that black people moving up in society start 'noticing' how many Jews there are at the top. When half of Hollywood and the media are Jewish, half the white people in Ivy league institutions are Jewish, and Jews only make up ~2% of the population, then it seems logical to a black person to wonder if maybe it isn't the 'white man' keeping them down, since whites are under-represented in the media, in Hollywood, in academia, etc.

And with how connected we all are, now black people (and gentile whites) can peer much further than before. Even the poorest, most oppressed black person in the US can pull out their phone (lol) and quickly discover that half the famous white people he's ever heard of are Jewish.

It's only going to get worse. This is an extremely popular and pervasive topic in the black community. Throughout 2020/21 there were a few organizations that ran into turmoil as the black activists tried pushing out Jews. I think the Woman's March was one. I think the attempts to censor Kanye, assuming he doesn't back down, will lead to more support for him in the black community. This could end up like when Morgan Wallen (country singer) got cancelled for dropping an n-bomb, and then became even more popular. I guarantee most black people hearing Kanye talk about Jews will think every institutional action taken against him is proof he's right.

Did Malcom X have some controversial statements about the Jews that were in a similar vein?

"So many Jews actually were hypocrites in their claim to be friends of the American black man, I gave the Jew credit for being among all other whites the most active, and the most vocal, financial, 'leader' and 'liberal' in the Negro civil rights movement. But at the same time I knew that the Jew played these roles for a very careful strategic reason: the more prejudice in America could be focused upon the Negro, then the more the white Gentiles’ prejudice would keep diverted off the Jew." - Malcolm X

Interesting comparison is Mel Gibson, who survived his cancellation attempt for antisemitism and became just as popular. Might Kanye pull the same stunt?

He survived in the sense he stopped making any movies or acting . There is a 5-year gap in his filmography between "Edge of Darkness" and "Complete Savages ".

Kanye was saying that 400 years of slavery is a choice, not that chattel slavery was. 400 years leads up to today. He's saying that people are mental slaves today, and you can choose to set your mind free.

Your steelman captures half of his point I think:

“[T]o make myself clear. Of course I know that slaves did not get shackled and put on a boat by free will. My point is for us to have stayed in that position even though the numbers were on our side means that we were mentally enslaved.”

“[T]he reason why I brought up the 400 years point is because we can’t be mentally imprisoned for another 400 years. We need free thought now. Even the statement was an example of free thought. It was just an idea. [O]nce again I am being attacked for presenting new ideas.” [I've seen this mocked but I never knew someone actually said this lol]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/01/entertainment/kanye-west-slavery-choice-trnd

It seems to me that he actually is saying that black people hanging around as slaves was a result of "mental enslavement." And that this enslavement continues today.

Which seems like something that is either true in a banal sense (if you are facing a larger and more technologically advanced civilization that will brutalize you for trying to escape are you "mentally enslaved" in any way similar to what we face today? Or are you just enslaved*) or just outright stupid (said technologically superior foe literally publicly mangling you if you try to leave makes it not a choice)

It wouldn't surprise me if Kanye actually had the quotes you're thinking of in mind and then jumbled it together with a bunch of whatever's flying in his head and gave us...this. The man is talented but he's an ultracrepidarian narcissist who seems to want to be recognized as an iconoclast who goes around saying insightful things but doesn't want to put in the work, so he settles for saying provocative things and then sees the negative attention as weirdly validating.

Anyways, I think the root of this is that black people moving up in society start 'noticing' how many Jews there are at the top.

I mean, this isn't specific to black people. Everyone notices this.

I think the problem for black people is the radfem problem: Radfems were allowed to say all sorts of crazy shit about men by their side. Then transwomen came along. And they just...continued to say crazy shit about men (why would they change when their target hasn't?) but then had to learn very fast that not all men are equal.

Black people are given somewhat of a pass for saying crazy things about white people and have gotten accustomed to it (some of the things they say about whites are similarly deranged or weird). They look around and see a group of affluent whites and naturally start applying the same logic. This is, of course, a no-go. Not only is antisemitism a third rail but, if we're being cynical, there are benefits to claiming to be an oppressed minority (even when affluent) and so people are naturally defensive of someone trying to strip them of their cloak of victimhood in a country where it's currency.

Beyond that: can we just say that they picked it up from around them? Islam and Christianity both have had problems with Judaism, to say nothing of general antisemitism floating around and black people aren't an island.

* The gulf in tech between Rome and the leaders of the Servile Wars was infinitesimal in comparison yet no slave revolt succeeded and, in fact, Romans never suffered another one after Spartacus. A simple explanation is that it's just hard to pull off, especially without external help.

A simple explanation is that it's just hard to pull off, especially without external help.

A much simpler explanation, that applies to both the Romans and the Americas, is that slavery really isn't that bad. Like, don't get me wrong here, it's worse than anything most people experience in their entire lives, it's clearly a net negative and a moral wrong, but it's rarely constant brutality. It wasn't typically Auschwitz, and Primo Levi tells us that even in Auschwitz there were good days and there were bad days.

Selections from WPA Writer's Project collection of Slave Narratives from surviving former slaves

[All SIC, the writers at the time transcribed to the best of their ability the Negro dialect of the time, which was an interesting choice. I'm not sure if it were me I wouldn't write "Hongry" as "Hungry" even if "Hongry" is how she said it. I feel like the choice reflects some degree of condescension, but was looked on as preserving an American folkway. Swings and roundabouts.]

Yes sir, I was ‘bout fourteen years old when President Lincoln set us all free in 1863. The war was still goin’ on and I’m tellin’ you right when I say that my folks and friends round me did not regard freedom as a unmixed blessin’. We didn’t know where to go or what to do, and so we stayed right where we was, and there wasn’t much difference to our livin’, ‘cause we had always had a plenty to eat and wear. I ‘member my mammy tellin’ me that food was gittin’ scarce, and any black folks beginnin’ to scratch for themselves would suffer, if they take their foot in their hand and ramble ‘bout the land lak a wolf. -- Daniel Waring, emancipated in South Carolina

You ain’t gwine to believe dat de slaves on our plantation didn’t stop workin’ for old marster, even when they was told dat they was free. Us didn’t want no more freedom than us was gittin’ on our plantation already. Us knowed too well dat us was well took care of, wid a plenty of vittles to eat and tight log and board houses to live in. De slaves, where I lived, knowed after de war dat they had abundance of dat somethin’ called freedom, what they could not eat, wear, and sleep in. Yes, sir, they soon found out dat freedom ain’t nothin’, ‘less you is got somethin’ to live on and a place to call home. Dis livin’ on liberty is lak young folks livin’ on love after they gits married. It just don’t work. No, sir, it las’ so long and not a bit longer. Don’t tell me! It sho’ don’t hold good when you has to work, or when you gits hongry. You knows dat poor white folks and niggers has got to work to live, regardless of liberty, love, and all them things. --- Ezra Adams, emancipated in South Carolina

I ‘lieve they ought to have gived us somethin’ when we was freed, but they turned us out to graze or starve. Most of the white people turned the Negroes slam loose. We stayed a year with missis and then she married and her husband had his own workers and told us to git out. We worked for twenty and thirty cents a day then, and I fin’ly got a place with Dr. L. J. Conroe. But after the war the Negro had a hard struggle, ‘cause he was turned loose jus’ like he came into the world and no education or ‘sperience. -- Tom Holland, 97, emancipated in Texas

Or consider one of my personal American heroes: Frederick Douglass. From his autobiography Keeping in mind that Douglass was an extraordinary man, look at the slack he was able to find in the slave system:

Mistress, in teaching me the alphabet, had given me the inch, and no precaution could prevent me from taking the ell.

The plan which I adopted, and the one by which I was most successful, was that of making friends of all the little white boys whom I met in the street. As many of these as I could, I converted into teachers. With their kindly aid, obtained at different times and in different places, I finally succeeded in learning to read. When I was sent of errands, I always took my book with me, and by going one part of my errand quickly, I found time to get a lesson before my return. I used also to carry bread with me, enough of which was always in the house, and to which I was always welcome; for I was much better off in this regard than many of the poor white children in our neighborhood. This bread I used to bestow upon the hungry little urchins, who, in return, would give me that more valuable bread of knowledge...

I used to talk this matter of slavery over with them. I would sometimes say to them, I wished I could be as free as they would be when they got to be men. “You will be free as soon as you are twenty-one, but I am a slave for life! Have not I as good a right to be free as you have?” These words used to trouble them; they would express for me the liveliest sympathy, and console me with the hope that something would occur by which I might be free.

Now compare Marx in Kapital, describing industrial conditions in England (the wealthiest nation in the world contemporary to Douglass' narrative):

“A clause,” says Mr. Otley, manager of a wall-paper factory in the Borough, “which allowed work between, say 6 a.m. and 9 p.m. would suit us (!) very well, but the factory hours, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., are not suitable. Our machine is always stopped for dinner. (What generosity!) ...

The report of the Commission opines with naïveté that the fear of some “leading firms” of losing time, i.e., the time for appropriating the labour of others, and thence losing profit is not a sufficient reason for allowing children under 13, and young persons under 18, working 12 to 16 hours per day, to lose their dinner, nor for giving it to them as coal and water are supplied to the steam-engine, soap to wool, oil to the wheel – as merely auxiliary material to the instruments of labour, during the process of production itself.

Douglass tells us clearly that there existed white children who were jealous of his material condition (bread available!). Certainly the slack available in his workday would have been enviable to thousands of children in Birmingham or London factories, tied to machines 12 hours a day. What hope did the average slave have upon escape? Odds are they wouldn't even be able to achieve the station of those laborers who worked 16 hour days in a factory!

Douglass tells us further:

A slave who would work during the holidays was considered by our masters as scarcely deserving them. He was regarded as one who rejected the favor of his master. It was deemed a disgrace not to get drunk at Christmas; and he was regarded as lazy indeed, who had not provided himself with the necessary means, during the year, to get whisky enough to last him through Christmas. From what I know of the effect of these holidays upon the slave, I believe them to be among the most effective means in the hands of the slaveholder in keeping down the spirit of insurrection. Were the slaveholders at once to abandon this practice, I have not the slightest doubt it would lead to an immediate insurrection among the slaves. These holidays serve as conductors, or safety-valves, to carry off the rebellious spirit of enslaved humanity. But for these, the slave would be forced up to the wildest desperation; and woe betide the slaveholder, the day he ventures to remove or hinder the operation of those conductors! I warn him that, in such an event, a spirit will go forth in their midst, more to be dreaded than the most appalling earthquake. The holidays are part and parcel of the gross fraud, wrong, and inhumanity of slavery. They are professedly a custom established by the benevolence of the slaveholders; but I undertake to say, it is the result of selfishness, and one of the grossest frauds committed upon the down-trodden slave. They do not give the slaves this time because they would not like to have their work during its continuance, but because they know it would be unsafe to deprive them of it.

Slavery was not a perpetual torture, it was a mode of life, sometimes good and sometimes bad, with sufficient slack in it that a person could "get ahead" to a certain extent. There were happy slaves and sad slaves, lucky slaves and unlucky slaves, hard working slaves and improvident slaves. They had goals, piddling goals but goals nonetheless, they had families and connections, they had food and shelter and clothing.

But there was a ceiling over it all. Mental slavery was the use of goals like "obtain master's favor for lighter work and more bread" and "get enough money put by here and there to get drunk at Christmas" to substitute for goals like "obtain freedom and independence of means" (many slaves did put by enough to purchase their own freedom) and "protect my family."

It seems to me that he actually is saying that black people hanging around as slaves was a result of "mental enslavement." And that this enslavement continues today.

Which seems like something that is either true in a banal sense (if you are facing a larger and more technologically advanced civilization that will brutalize you for trying to escape are you "mentally enslaved" in any way similar to what we face today? Or are you just enslaved*) or just outright stupid (said technologically superior foe literally publicly mangling you if you try to leave makes it not a choice)

As the old saying goes, you get used to anything eventually. That's what I think he's saying, yeah they were brutally dominated and subjugated into passively accepting their fates, but as any student of the time will tell you, they weren't whipped into submission every day for hundreds of years. They were treated 'decently' if they behaved, and so eventually they all behaved. To the point that yes, there were black people who supported the confederates, there were slaves who believed it was the best they could get.

That is the mental slavery. And yes it absolutely continues to this day, and yes you are one of the slaves, so am I, so is everyone here. But we have never been free - truly free - and so we accept this crude facsimile we are given by the government and corporations and all those who profit from our misery. At least that's what I think he's saying. Maybe it is banal, but so is calling fire hot. People don't lose their shit when you tell them fire is hot though.

As the old saying goes, you get used to anything eventually.

Getting used to literally being brutalized every time you try to rebel or run (and people did try) is not the same as getting used to...I dunno, whatever "slave" situation Kanye feels he and black people are today.

Sure, you could say they got used to both* but the means by which they were made resigned to their fate are vastly different and it's important.

If I look at the situation and think: "I hate the white man, I want to escape but I know so-and-so got lynched and that last rebellion was crushed brutally" that imo that is not some mental distortion or spell. That is a response to force, not a Jedi mind trick.

You might as well say that a conquered state is "mentally" enslaved.

That is the mental slavery. And yes it absolutely continues to this day, and yes you are one of the slaves, so am I, so is everyone here. But we have never been free - truly free - and so we accept this crude facsimile we are given by the government and corporations and all those who profit from our misery.

Sorry, but to me, this falls into the "if it's true it's true in a banal sense". Lots of people are forced into suboptimal political situations. It's not inherently slavery, especially not slavery compared to actual slavery. This is why OP's original steelman assumed that Kanye meant it was like slavery, not that he actually made an equivalence between slaves and black people today. Because it would be ridiculous.

Creating an equivalence between black people who were literally brought to America in chains and black people today seems absurd to me. I find the mindset ludicrous and it leads to all sorts of weird nonsense like Kaepernick comparing the NFL to slavery

Is Kaepernick right? I mean...I guess he is correct that there is a power differential between owners and players. And players naturally are subject to health checks to make sure they are fit to play and they are "sold" but I don't think anyone actually thinks it's anything like slavery and, the sense in which it is like that is so nebulous..

You might as well say that a conquered state is "mentally" enslaved.

People do say that. This is a common refrain among nationalists, and apparently enough motivation for them to put their lives on the line in rebellion.

You might as well say that a conquered state is "mentally" enslaved.

They are. A conquered state is mentally enslaved, else they cannot be conquered. To crack open one of my favorite passages of Herodotus for the second time this week, Herodotus's account of the Xanthians:

The Pedasian stronghold being at length taken, and Harpagus having led his army into the plain of Xanthus, the Lycians came out to meet him, and did valorous deeds in their battle against odds; but being worsted and driven into the city they gathered into the citadel their wives and children and goods and servants, and then set the whole citadel on fire. Then they swore each other great oaths, and sallying out they fell fighting, all the men of Xanthus. Of the Xanthians who claim now to be Lycians the greater number — all saving eighty households — are liars.

Or ask Hasdrubal's wife at the fall of Carthage what slavery means.

Or ask Gandhi when consulted on what the Brits and the Jews should do about the Nazis:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

“Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.....It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany.... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.”

There are alternatives to victory or accepting defeat and slavery.

Getting used to literally being brutalized every time you try to rebel or run (and people did try) is not the same as getting used to...I dunno, whatever "slave" situation Kanye feels he and black people are today.

I don't think Kanye is talking about just black people, although I think it's truer of them than most. He's saying the same thing black conservatives have been saying for decades, that blame whitey, blame slavery, blame whatever you like, the real thing holding down black people today is a culture of apathy which tells them living on the edge of poverty is as good as they can get. That it doesn't matter that you live in the ghetto if you have a gaudy platinum chain on your neck. That sure, your daughter is going to end up raising the baby she just learned about alone, because her boyfriend is going to get himself arrested or shot, but you made do in that situation and so will she.

Sure, you could say they got used to both* but the means by which they were made resigned to their fate are vastly different and it's important.

To whom? Do you think it's unimportant to a guy whose ancestors experienced it? Do you think he said it flippantly? I think if he said it the same way black conservatives usually say it it would have been ignored like it usually is.

If I look at the situation and think: "I hate the white man, I want to escape but I know so-and-so got lynched and that last rebellion was crushed brutally" that imo that is not some mental distortion or spell. That is a response to force, not a Jedi mind trick.

It is a response to force, but it is also a jedi mind trick. Black people on some plantations outnumbered whites. But they were kept in line anyway. Not with brutality, with the white man's greatest tool - decorum. As I said, slaves who believed that was where they belonged. That is mental slavery. Slave morality if you like.

He's saying the same thing black conservatives have been saying for decades, that blame whitey, blame slavery, blame whatever you like, the real thing holding down black people today is a culture of apathy which tells them living on the edge of poverty is as good as they can get.

And I don't have any problem with that? The point is that what he actually, explicitly said is banal at best or stupid.

Kaepernick was also trying to make a similar sort of point. What a shame that he felt the need to use slavery eh?

You run into this with Kaepernick too where people defend him because he's attacking a group they like or they like what they believe is under his figurative speech I feel that the people defending both Kaepernick and Kanye are defending what they see as a nugget of a point in their ramblings and absurd comparisons.

I don't even disagree with many of those potential nuggets (empires do have systems to assimilate people and make them accept it, apathy is a thing, we today have been sapped of a certain amount of...I dunno, feeling of control over the destiny of our civilizations?). But that's not what Kanye said.

Black people on some plantations outnumbered whites.

At the time of Spartacus there was a huge glut of slaves. They rebelled. How did that go? Nat Turner rebelled. How did that go? Plenty of peasants around, yet often peasant revolts ended horribly.

The fact that any order comes up with social systems to take up some of the work of force doesn't mean that force isn't lurking, isn't a dominant consideration in people's minds or that force isn't actually effective.

This is giving me "why didn't they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?"

I don't even disagree with many of those potential nuggets (empires do have systems to assimilate people and make them accept it, apathy is a thing, we today have been sapped of a certain amount of...I dunno, feeling of control over the destiny of our civilizations?). But that's not what Kanye said.

I think it is.

“When you hear about slavery for 400 years,” he said. “For 400 years? That sounds like a choice. You was there for 400 years and it’s all of y’all. It’s like we’re mentally in prison. I like the word prison because slavery goes too direct to the idea of blacks. Slavery is to blacks as the Holocaust is to Jews. Prison is something that unites as one race, blacks and whites, that we’re the human race.”

Perhaps this is necessary context. This is from New Slaves, on the album Yeezus -

My mama was raised in the era when,

Clean water was only served to the fairer skin,

Doin' clothes, you woulda thought I had help,

But they wasn't satisfied unless I picked the cotton myself,

You see it's broke nigga racism

That's that "Don't touch anything in the store",

And it's rich nigga racism

That's that "Come in, please buy more",

"What you want, a Bentley? Fur coat? A diamond chain?

All you blacks want all the same things",

Used to only be niggas, now everybody playin'

Spendin' everything on Alexander Wang

New slaves

He's not saying "they only like us when we are rich", he's saying they distract us from the pursuit of freedom with material possessions and with racial prejudice, pitting us against each other so we don't notice them pulling our strings.

He's said similar things in interviews with people like Joe Rogan (and I thought Candace Owens too, but I can't find any interviews between them, google just shows me a billion opinion pieces bitching about the both of them.)

The fact that any order comes up with social systems to take up some of the work of force doesn't mean that force isn't lurking, isn't a dominant consideration in people's minds or that force isn't actually effective.

Exactly. You don't need to whip them every day because they have been mentally enslaved, the fear of the whip, of lynching and brutality keeps them in line. Even after slavery was abolished. The first step in freeing yourself from mental slavery is to say "I would rather die free than live as a slave" and to mean it.

You keep calling it banal, but you aren't explaining why. If it's so obvious and unoriginal, why is everyone flipping out? Why are you explaining exactly what he means as if it is somehow a rebuttal of what he said?

It is a God damned fucking atrocity that black people were so terrorised and brutalised by slavers that it has instilled such a horrible and depressive mindset into them, but agency is agency - you can only be given so much freedom, primarily you have to take it for yourself. And when someone is beaten down so much that they accept living in poverty, they need to be shocked into action, because gentle sympathy just excuses them from trying.

Like Bill Cosby said, it is the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. And we do it to everybody living around the poverty line these days. I don't know if you are dismissing it as "stupid" and "bootstraps" because you are enslaved or because living in poverty is too alien for you to understand and you think middle class sensibilities should be respected at all times, but I strongly disagree.

It seems to me that he actually is saying that black people hanging around as slaves was a result of "mental enslavement." And that this enslavement continues today.

Which seems like something that is either true in a banal sense (if you are facing a larger and more technologically advanced civilization that will brutalize you for trying to escape are you "mentally enslaved" in any way similar to what we face today? Or are you just enslaved*) or just outright stupid (said technologically superior foe literally publicly mangling you if you try to leave makes it not a choice)

I don't think it's banal or stupid. Compare this quote, ending with "If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” If there's a difference between that quote, written by a former slave about other slaves, and Kanye's statement, I'm not seeing it.

This is how people who are serious about learning from the past engage with their past mistakes: focus on that which is within one's own control, on the choices one is presented with.

You are entirely correct that it's difficult to pull off. That's why it's important to make the decisions in advance, to cultivate the proper mindset, the proper cultural technology, rather than attempting to put it together ad hoc once the fetters are on your wrists.

I wonder how black people will feel if this is what kills Kanye and not...y'know, going against the strongest racial partisan preference in the country.

I think they'll feel fear when they see that even their strongest champion (well, one of the strongest) is a powerless commoner, someone to be dragged through the mud and forced to apologize, in this scenario. It'll be a reality check of sorts, like what happens when Kadyrov's folks come to you to discuss your penchant for talking smack about Chechens on the internet. Thought you're a tough guy, huh? Thought we're powerless pussies? Surprise, we are the tough guys and you are the pussy; now display to all that you acknowledge that, and then hopefully we won't have to deal with really tough and much meaner guys than you in the future. It's a normal Asian practice of group self-defense, in fact it follows inevitably from the logic of honor culture. It permeates Israeli foreign policy and Jewish activism and it works well.

This happens to Black Americans and to other groups from time to time. How much has changed since 1996, really? Granted, some things have changed: for instance, we don't have Norm any more. Nor TV programs where his sort of routine, the gentlest, most plausibly deniable criticism of overreaction, the court jester's hint to the king, can be aired.

If we dispense with the individual will and look at this through the faux-Jungian lens of collective group unconscious, Kanye or Nick Cannon going off the rails in different directions is collective Black America testing and learning the boundaries of legitimate aggression. White people are anemic, weak and undefended – soft, allowed targets. Jewish people are so unallowed you'd best not even acknowledge you can distinguish them from Whites unless you're trying to offer some compliment – and this is, of course, one hell of a reason to learn to distinguish them.

It's a shame we don't have a way to see what the median person thinks about this

How would that look like? You can't just average what 300 millions of people think and get some meaningful picture. It's like composing an "average person", having one testicle, one teat and half a penis, and expecting that construct to give you a meaningful insight into how males and females behave.

As for why talk of persecuting Jews is dangerous, I think there are some examples in history that demonstrate that pretty conclusively. With that, the idiotic theories some of the less educated members of the famous-American community are periodically airing out are nothing new, and have been circulating for decades, some for centuries. Absent proper mental hygiene, some get infected and then sneeze it out in public. With prompt treatment delivered in time, there's nothing dangerous to it, if that's where it ends.

White people are seeing this - they're basically seeing that anti-white racism is fine

I'm not sure which part made you think "anti-white racism is fine"?

  • -16

No one is saying any group should be persecuted. But it would seem as if one group is off-limits to debate or criticism.

That's not true at all. There's a lot of criticism directed at Jews in general and American Jews in particular. It's just "I am going to go Death Con 3 on Jews" is not something I call "debate and criticism". Neither is "you're not real Jews, your identity is fake and I am a real Jew instead". What exactly is being debated here? What is criticized? It's just repeating known false statements in an attempt to hurt people.

Of course in a free country one should be free to say even obviously false and idiotic things. But whoever is saying it also should be told they are false and idiotic, and "it's debate and criticism!" is no excuse for saying false and idiotic things.

It seems like the mere accusation of antiseminitm can end careers and has the effect of ending debate. Maybe Kanye was out of line but people have faced serious repercussions for far less

"I'm going Death Con 3 on Jews" is "mere accusation" as standing over the body with a smoking gun in one's hand and screaming "yes, I killed the bastard, and I am proud of it!" is a "mere accusation of murder". Since antisemitism is not a crime, there never could be anything more official than "accusation" - nobody gets an official Antisemitism League membership card, and organizations that could issue functional equivalents of this are, thankfully, either extinct or far away. But we have very clear expressions that go way beyond "mere accusation" - it's not like somebody just said out of the blue "Kanye said something antisemitic 20 years ago, I don't remember where or when or what it was, but I remember it being said so vividly it affected my whole life, even though I didn't speak to anybody about it for 20 years, but now I'm literally shaking!". That'd be mere accusation. And of course, nobody would think about taking something like that seriously and demand it had far-reaching consequences. But that's not what happened. We have the actual anti-semitic pronouncements. We all saw them. Maybe Ye wants to tell us we misunderstood him and "Death Con 3" actually means "embrace of friendship and love"? Maybe by saying Jews created cancel culture he meant Jews are great people and cancel culture is bad, and nothing more? He certainly didn't tell us any of that.

And as for ending debate - what debate? I don't see him debating anyone. I see him repeating moronic falsities about Jews and promising to do the same in the future. That's not a debate. At least it's not any debate that anybody would value. It's still his free speech, but there's no "ending debate" because there was never beginning the debate.

Maybe Kanye was out of line but people have faced serious repercussions for far less

People have faced serious repercussions for very small things, like walking around White House in a bad time. What's your point here? Do I think Chase should have closed his account? No, I don't think so. I think Chase is bad for doing this, and creates a terrible precedent. But do I think Ye should get his ass kicked, in strictly metaphorical and rhetorical sense of course, for doing something this monumentally stupid? Yes, I think so.

If a non-black celebrity was robbed, then tweeted about how he's about to go DEFCON 3 on black people and gave multiple interviews about how he's not about to keep getting victimized by black criminals, would it go very differently?

No, anti black racism is also unaccepted. But racism against non Jewish whites is completely acceptable. Thats the point

Yes, undisputed. That is not the same thing as "jews are the one group that is off-limits to debate or criticism".

The portion of his fanbase that posts on Kanye-related subreddits is very displeased with this latest bout of iconoclasm. [Edit: Actually /r/westsubever seems pretty adamant about sticking with the music.] However, I'm curious about the non-Reddit-posting demographic of Kanye fans. I'm not sure whether they're tuned into this issue nor whether they're bothered. I guess I'm basically echoing you: "It's a shame we don't have a way to see what the median person thinks about this."

Perhaps a decent proxy — some comments from theshaderoom's latest Kanye post (celebrity gossip Insta focused on black culture, predominantly black commentariat):

Y’all are not understanding that this guy is trying to build his own empire,but he can’t if he is still in contracts with all them labels and companies! This is all planed

131 likes ^

He’s getting out of his contracts and y’all don’t see the genius in this lmao.

1,707 likes ^

They ain’t move like this when he said slavery was a choice but I guess

1,160 likes ^

Nobody lifted a finger when he was talking about black people though

1,871 likes ^

I think he ending his relationships with the companies but y’all gon spin shit how y’all wanna 🥴🤷

138 likes ^

He used the system to make his money. Now using the platform they gave him to speak uncomfortable truths. The man is a genius. He is already a billionaire he’ll be fine.

57 likes ^

it’s funny when he was saying all this shit against black people (“slavery was a choice”) ain’t nobody end they relationship with him but the moment he speak Jews in the industry and they wrong doings, they ready to clean house with him. It just shows how much they don’t gaf about anybody but them.

3,990 likes ^

Perhaps a decent proxy — some comments from theshaderoom's latest Kanye post (celebrity gossip Insta focused on black culture, predominantly black commentariat):

TheColi is another site with mostly black membership (I had to laugh one time when there was a thread asking you to post a photo of your hand to prove your opinions on hip-hop were worth listening to), here's what they have to say about Kanye:

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/adidas-to-end-kanye-west-partnership-after-controversies-bloomberg-com.943998/

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/adidas-to-end-kanye-west-partnership-after-controversies-bloomberg-com.943998/

I remember when Nas mentioned Doug Morris in hero lyrics and they censored it and it wasn't even that bad , that's when I realized these guys don't play around

^6 likes

Why would companies do anything to Kanye for his comments about black people when you had countless idiots in the black community co-signing his buffoonery? There’s threads on this very site with people agreeing with him on slavery being a choice.

When he said something about the Jews they came together and packed his ass up. You didn’t have Jewish people stepping out of line and defending him or trying to explain what he really meant.

^30 likes

Boo hoo... it's not on white people to be outraged on our behalf.

Seems you dudes are learning the hard way. We should have cancelled him since slavery was a choice came out his mouth. If we had raised the issues back then these companies would have had to respond as well :yeshrug:

Nikkaz gonna keep crying bout Jew power like they are mythical or embrace collective power and learn how to move accordingly. But most would rather still stay stuck on pretending that we can't amass power as well because we don't have the resources. People are the main resource.

^33 likes

fukk Kanye but it’s funny it takes for him to say one thing about the Jews for him to get cancelled for hate speech yet this nikka been running around literally shytting on black people and our ancestors for years now untouched. Either way. fukk him. But fukk the media and the industry too.

^44 likes

For branding purposes , Kanye should at least leave George Floyd out of it. Otherwise, he's not going to have any fans. There is a large overlap of blacks who agree with Kanye regarding Jews and still think Floyd was murdered .

Mind linking to sources quoting what Kanye said exactly?

This article goes chronologically.

Here's the BBC on the subject.

When Diddy asked him again to stop [selling 'white lives matter' shirts], West replied: "Ima use you as an example to show the Jewish people that told you to call me that no one can threaten or influence me."

...

He followed up with a message saying: "I'm a bit sleepy tonight but when I wake up I'm going death con 3 On JEWISH PEOPLE The funny thing is I actually can't be Anti Semitic because black people are actually Jew also.

"You guys have toyed with me and tried to black ball anyone whoever opposes your agenda," he added.

It's classic anti-Semitism, not disguised and not any sort of edge case.

No it’s not antisemitism, it’s critical Jew theory. We need to deconstruct Jewishness in America.

If Kanye identifies as Jew, then he’s a Jew and we must accommodate him by letting him censor other people.

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