This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Are you asking for "girl stories" (that aren't smut-adjacent) or "stories written by women that aren't girl stories"?
I would argue that Harry Potter is not a girl story. While Rowling has some problems writing adolescent boys (and for that matter, her adult Cormoran Strike novels sometimes show a bit of women-writing-men weaknesses), the Harry Potter series was very much a boy's adventure (and was sometimes even criticized for that, despite its fanbase being majority female). However, as a story that appeals to girls yet doesn't also alienate boys, it's probably the ur-example today.
Dragonriders of Pern is, as you say, something that appeals to spergy horse girls and I have seen female authors inspired by it refer to it as "girl-canon," but back in the day it had a broad cross-gender appeal. (The "Harper Hall" sequel trilogy was much more of a for-girls thing.)
There are a number of female authors who write decent novels that appeal to men: Lois McMaster Bujold, Elizabeth Moon, C.J. Cherryh. Leaning more towards "feminine perspective but still readable by a man," Leigh Bardugo, Cathrynne Valente (the author is insufferably woke and has one of the worst cases of TDS I have ever seen, but I really do recommend her Fairyland books, which are both very much "girl" stories but something I would totally read to a boy), Naomi Novik (a lot of people love her Napoleonic wars-with-dragons Tremaire series though personally I didn't), Ursula LeGuin. And outside the SFF genre, Alex Marwood, Sara Gran, Lisa Brackman.
Really, it isn't that hard to find good female authors who aren't writing didactic man-hating feminist novels or romantasy. Finding books that appeal to young readers of both sexes is harder but not impossible.
Even when she writes boys it feels like she's writing girls. Like the most soy character presence, dialog and actions. Bless me I didn't have the words to describe it back then, but I always hated those parts of her stories. The movies were mildly ok because I could focus on the fantasy setting instead of the misery porn that was poor little orphan Harry.
More options
Context Copy link
Aw, I liked Tremaire (although I didn't even think of the author's gender until now). Not a fan of how hard it leaned into the telecom tropes, or an issue the writing quality/plot pacing?
I like Temeraire but it annoys me how often the book goes, ‘Man isn’t Napoleonic England stuffy! Just as well dragon riders are rare and so we get to be as liberated as we please!’.
Great books. I would say they are, if not explicitly Christian, at least meant to be read that way. Jesus gets name dropped once or twice, angels feature prominently, and one of the books (Many Waters) has the protagonists get dropped right in the middle of the Flood story from Genesis. L'engle doesn't come right out and name Christianity, but the pieces are there (and of course she herself was Christian).
Edit way after the fact: this was supposed to be a reply to @Amadan about the Wrinkle in Time series, I have no idea how it got attached to this comment instead! Sorry for any confusion, Corvos.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I can't really say; it just didn't grab me. Part of it is that frankly, the Napoleonic era is just not a setting that has ever interested me much.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
also helped code AO3 and still writes fanfiction under a pen-name. Plus her fairy-tale retellings and scholomance series were very solid reads, if undeniably girl-coded.
She's like the spiders georg of female-author-male-appeal. Legit built different.
That’s awesome, I never knew that! I knew she was a writer on video games but I didn’t realise she coded as well.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
LeGuin started strong but then became consciously feminist and repudiated her earlier work.
I recall her describing how embarrassed she felt in retrospect at making Ged a man, as though a male hero should be the default.
She was always consciously feminist (or at least very leftist). I am not aware of her repudiating her earlier work, but I agree that her early stuff was better.
She was, but it wasn’t until later that she decided that you couldn’t be feminist and write a world containing a male-only organisation that was powerful and wise. Especially when a certain number of your women are witchy - powerful but often in a secretive and manipulative way.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm asking for stories that are identifiably girl stories but also follow basic storytelling rules rather than expressing the basest cringe urges of women (and then the vampire bad boy and the werewolf bad boy fight over me while I sit there and wait to be taken by the winner, and the vampire wins, but the werewolf is okay because he finds someone else, then the vampire marries me) or being girl-power pandering. I'm talking "man goes up tree, people throw rocks at him, man comes down from the tree, Changed" level rules.
I know they exist, writers who can write them exist, and yet Disney can't find them. Instead it's "girl goes up tree, is stunning and brave, rocks bounce off of her, men are such trash amirite, the end."
Joan Aiken's Dido Twite books might fit this, as might Patricia Wrede's Mairelon the Magician series.
More options
Context Copy link
Kemono no Sou-ja Erin. It's about a sensitive but plucky young girl who, over the course of her life, tries to make connections with people, create social peace, and uphold her values in a cynical world of intense political and social conflict. Positive femininity is shown as a kind of extremophile lichen, which grows in the cracks of an amoral dog-eat-dog world. With each new challenge, Erin has to find a way to turn people away from their dark impulses, resolve interpersonal conflicts, and be subversively moral under evil rules.
I'd certainly introduce this show to a 8yo-16yo daughter if I had one.
More options
Context Copy link
Famously, the entire corpus of Jane Austen.
You’ve got Wickham/Churchill/Willhoughby/Henry Crawford as the werevolves to the vampires Darcy/Knightley/Ed Ferrars-Brandon/Ed Bertram.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Maybe what you consider "basic storytelling rules" are actually male character archetype rules?
No, there is a female version of the hero's journey. It is not quite the same, notably the struggle tends to be more internal, but it exists.
Women have recurring mythic structures based on their own experiences too.
The recent feminist attempts to associate a queer style rejection of all structure and in particular of the causality structure of storytelling is not a woman thing, it is a feminist thing. And it's not even really that popular in its own circles.
The best depiction of the heroine's journey is, unironically, the schlocky Princess Diary movie, which plays it so straight that it is practically canonical. A awkward but virtuous heroine discovers her inner beauty and refinement and prevails over circumstances to end up with a good man. She overcomes her own insecurities and the judgements of others to become a princess in heart as well as in fact.
And this is an internal journey, for the most part: complementary to the masculine hero. If you watch media that women genuinely like to consume (like magical girl anime and Disney princess movies) the fighting and bluster is largely secondary to the dramatic arcs of feminine self-realization.
The perversion happens when you combine the superficial aspects of the masculine journey with the contemplating-one-navel nature of the feminine one. If you're a supercompetent girlboss you have no virtues to realize in the feminine sense or to learn in the masculine sense. Stagnancy. The only arc that is possible is 'the world doesn't recognize how awesome I am, and so it must suffer'. This narcissistic plot is utterly repugnant and is rejected by all but the most hidebound ideologues.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't know if this will meet your strict criteria - it runs on the "basest cringe urges" of its author for sure - but I will not pass up an opportunity to recommend Unsounded. A rock-solid epic fantasy doorstopper, except it's a full-color graphic novel created by one person. Sure, attempts at these things are a dime a dozen; this is one that pulled it off.
(I will caution patience with Sette early on, though.)
Unsounded is great. Alderode is a ethnat police state with strict castes, Cresce is a child-sacrificing horror communist monarchy, and Sharteshane is the worst of Dickesian Victorian capitalist apathy.
How can you care for anyone, in such a soul crushing world?
Without spoiling anything, I think Cope answers that question quite well.
More options
Context Copy link
Seconding Unsounded. I haven't caught up in a couple years, but the first arc was absolutely fantastic. Also, I would argue Sette is amazing from the very start; I get that people might think of her as a "girl boss", given that she's a... girl(?) and is certainly bossy, but the thing is that her confidence is very obviously artificial, and that while she is in fact quite competent in a variety of ways from the start, the gap between her competence and the situation she's stuck in is immediately obvious, and quite stark. Also, the rest of the characters, male and female, are really, really well done. Duane is amazing as a portrait of a man of principles slowly being ground down by an unprincipled world.
Also, Kill Six Billion Demons, which I likewise am a couple years behind on, but was amazing as far as I've read.
This is a good to catch up with it. The epilogue just finished yesterday (for Unsounded proper: the second half will have a new title and begin in January.)
Interestingly, also seems to be a Kickstarter in progress right now.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's really hard to tell what you are asking for specifically - are you asking for no romance at all? That's hard! Stories of any kind usually jam in a romance element because it is a "cheap" way to add additional appeal. Stories written for women or by women are more likely to do this because women are generally more interested in people, it's usually only hyper-masculine coded stories and themes that avoid any romance at all and even most war/military properties will find a way to slide in a romance element, even something close to explicitly homoerotic like Top Gun.
I've been on an anime binge recently so:
Full Metal Alchemist - written by a woman, most people can't tell.
Dan Da Dan - written by a man, many would guess the writer is a woman. Has lots to appeal to women and to men. Has a cute teenage romance that even some of my gym bros enjoy.
The Apothecary Diaries - written by a woman, clearly teenage girl fantasy elements but still enjoyable for many who hate that. Female lead has "super powers" but is helpless at the appropriate times and weird with significant character flaws. So yeah "basest" urges of women, maybe? But also illustrates that if you do a good job who cares. Same thing with hypermasculine product that everyone loves if it is good enough.
Now all three of those are Eastern so yes a possible theme here is The Message tanking artistic product, so to take it in another direction - how about Shrinking* and Ted Lasso? Two modern comedies with low levels of romance elements, strong female characters who aren't perfect (even the literal girl bosses), strong female coding in the form of lots of feelings discussion, therapy culture, and so on.
Non-slop and um, quality slop? still exist.
*only seen season 1 of Shrinking.
I'm more trying to make a point that stories about women/by women have been written that can be enjoyed by humans of whatever gender, this isn't utterly uncharted territory where artists have to build everything from scratch.
More options
Context Copy link
I like my anime by ex-hentai artists, desperately trying and failing not to cross the eros line. (Hellsing/Freezing)
Gargantia of the Verdurous Planet. Though admittedly he doesn’t try very hard.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I kind of feel that there’s a recent crop of writers who actually suffer the opposite problem: no romance at all, ever. Which feels very… inhuman? The human experience is such that at least some kind of attraction is bound to come up in any developed world covering any significant stretch of time. Even more so for teen protagonists, but hardly exclusively. So it feels weird when these stories don’t bother, either, possibly because writing good romance is admittedly at least a little difficult.
As an example there’s a very noticeable divide in the manga/manhua world between boy audience and girl audience fictions. It’s increasingly common that the guy oriented ones either play the typical harem-flirty route, where everyone is interested but the main character never commits, or increasingly never being it up at all, focusing on other power fantasy aspects or simply going all in on visuals and violence. Depressing, really, that commitment is so rare, and that many relationships (even friendships) are either one-way, or trivialized with no real conflict.
More options
Context Copy link
Blood+. The main character has multiple love interests (sort of) but the story is both intensely focused on her attachments to the world in general (brothers, father, friends and other more spoilery ones) and an excellent globe-trotting thriller.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Little House on the Prairie is a classic.
More options
Context Copy link
Well, see some of my recs. Most of them follow that formula and show character growth in the female protagonist. Whether individually they suit your tastes, I can't say, but a lot of the complaints about Disney and romantasy just aren't that applicable to the entire field of published genre works. (And I do recommend stepping outside of genre to broaden your horizons.)
More options
Context Copy link
Sailor Moon, but there's a reason that people point to anime as being insulated from woke influence.
Sailor Moon is too old for that anyway. It finished in '97.
Crystal?
Oh. I never heard about that (whereas I vaguely recall watching the first anime, probably while I was preschool-aged).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link