site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   36204 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Paul Pelosi, husband of U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D), was assaulted in their San Francisco home by a hammer-wielding man early on Friday.

CNN, citing a source, reported that the assailant shouted "Where is Nancy?" before the attack and told police he was "waiting for Nancy" when they arrived at the scene.

I'm reminded of the Congressional baseball shooting in 2017, where six people were shot, including U.S. House Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R).

I don't have anything intelligent to add. Just curious on your thoughts, if any.

assaulted in their San Francisco home by a hammer-wielding man early on Friday.

And if the suspect was not white the headline would read "Paul Pelosi, husband of U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D), was assaulted by a hammer on Friday"

But in all seriousness, he was injured badly https://archive.ph/Icttd

The intruder confronted the speaker’s husband in their San Francisco home shouting, “Where is Nancy? Where is Nancy?” according to the source. The man who assaulted Paul Pelosi tried to tie him up “until Nancy got home,” according to two sources familiar with the situation. When the police arrived, the assailant was saying he was “waiting for Nancy.”

“This was not a random act. This was intentional,” San Francisco Police Chief William Scott said during a news conference on the investigation, adding, “It’s wrong. Our elected officials are here to do the business of their cities, their counties, their states and this nation.

And also trade stocks with suspicious accuracy too

Pelosi, 82, was taken to a hospital and underwent a “successful surgery to repair a skull fracture and serious injuries to his right arm and hands,” Drew Hammill, a spokesman for Nancy Pelosi, said in a statement early Friday evening. The statement said that doctors expect he will make a full recovery.

Where was the security? It's surprising someone so high profile would not have any security at all.

from what i heard pelosi's security detail was with her and there was no security team allocated to her husband at the time.

I agree it's surprising but just chiming in to say security wasn't out getting coffee or anything.

I'm a little surprised someone nationally known and worth $120 million wouldn't spring for private security.

Also 82 years old. If I were worth that much, I'd definitely start seriously considering opting for at least 1 bodyguard once I got past 70, between the loss of reflexes and strength I would feel much less confident about my ability to protect myself in a violent situation.

The suspect is a green party voter and nudist activist, I don't think he fits easily into national party boxes.

The suspect is a green party voter and nudist activist, I don't think he fits easily into national party boxes.

Predictably Twitter is all in on labeling this as fascist right wing terrorism.

Well, as the Reuters article says:

In recent posts on several websites, an internet user named "daviddepape" expressed support for former President Donald Trump and embraced the cult-like conspiracy theory QAnon. The posts include references to "satanic paedophilia," anti-Semitic tropes and criticism of women, transgender people and censorship by tech companies.

Older messages promote quartz crystals and hemp bracelets. Reuters could not confirm that the posts were created by the man arrested on Friday.

The San Francisco Chronicle posted a photo of a man the newspaper identified as Depape dancing at the 2013 wedding of two nudist activists in San Francisco, though he was fully clothed. Depape, then a hemp jewelry maker who lived with the couple in a crowded home in Berkeley, was the best man at the wedding, the newspaper reported.

Unless this is a case of mistaken identity, it would be the Trump support, QAnon etc. that would be the reason for the label "far-right terrorism".

Really, do you think that it's impossible that this guy would go from being a Green Party voter to QAnon conspiracy theorism? I consider it very plausible, as such movement has been seen otherwise in similar circles during the Trump/Covid years.

One thing I've noted - generally, not just related to this case, and of course reporting might still change, as it is often wont to do - is that there are many right-wingers who are perfectly able to understand that left-wingers may often turn rightwards, even abruptly so, who find such developments and see-the-light movements expected, who have even done it themselves... but, if such a person happens to do something crazy, will immediately start going "Oh, see these old Facebook posts from years ago, look at his hippie hobbies, look at what a weirdo he is... clear case of left-wing terrorism, once again the media is blaming the right for no reason at all" and so on.

I do think that anyone who flips between extreme ideologies is a bad example to be used for any wide swath of the population. He probably was animated in part by far right conspiracy theories but also in part because he's just fundamentally a weird extremist. If it wasn't this in two years maybe he's doing eco terrorism or giving his life to some other extreme position. People like this are weird.

Really, do you think that it's impossible that this guy would go from being a Green Party voter to QAnon conspiracy theorism?

It makes him a very non-central example when used for attacks on the right in general, as the media uses him.

Non-central to what? Right-wingers in general?

Are they just supposed to not mention his recently expressed political views in connection to an attack on a politician?

Mentioning it, and spinning it as related to the more usual kind of right-wingers, are different.

Did they manage to just not mention who he voted for?

Not national party boxes, but "Green Party voter some years ago, nudist activists, generally hippy-dippy, now posting Mike Lindell and conspiracy theorist stuff" would fit him quite well to new-ager-to-far-right-within-last-two-years QAnon/antivaxx pipeline box.

Question then is how the hell he got to QAnon from Green Party.

Marin County is an antivax stronghold, yo. There is more than one kind of Democratic voter.

It’s where RFK, Jr. holds luncheons about autism at wineries.

Like I said, there's a very clear pipeline with more than a few treaders. You're active in various hippy-dippy New Age circles, which are probably amenable to conspiracy theories and other "occult knowledge", as well as alternative medicine types, anti-vaxx thinking, general health contrarianism, suspicious of mainstream parties etc.

The conspiracy theory mindset might already make you somewhat amenable to QAnon (which has always had more than a bit of a New Age vibe with its talk of Great Awakening etc.) before Covid hits, but Covid, at the latest, flips you firmly against the consensus mindset that sees Ivermectin, hydrocloroquine and other alternative treatments as bad and lockdowns particularly vaccines as the only solution. Within the American context, pretty much the only option that remains is the conspiracy-oriented far right. Everything else just comes with the territory then.

The kind of alt medicine is meaningfully different though- instead of essential oils and chakras the conspiracy right is advocating, basically, offlabel uses of legit medicine.

In my experience, the altmed crowd is pretty flexible about this, ie. "anything goes as long as it's not conventional". And I've myself tracked a number of local health mommy / healing crystal types drifting steadily towards rightwards during/due to the COVID period, it's not just a theoretical movement.

I feel like the average quality of political assassination attempts has been declining disturbingly fast lately. It's either been inept schizos with no plan, or guys who brood on elaborate plans but pick a random politician to shoot when their target doesn't show up.

What are all the clever, high functioning psychopaths doing these days?

Does Theodore Kaczynski count?

He hasn't been particularly active recently.

tough to speculate without looking like a fedpost but i kinda assume that most avenues of serious planning to assassinate someone will trip some invisible alarms somehow or another. That said, i don't really have any proof that the secret police ever stop anyone from killing people, so maybe in reality people are just less willing to die for their political beliefs in america.

Worth noting, that Japanese guy who shot Shinzo Abe with the fallout gun was prettymuch an archetypal head on assassination, so it still does happen.

As a tangent, the Abe assassination was really interesting in that his assassin actually achieved change in the direction of his goals, with the Japanese government becoming less friendly to the Moonies.

It's always been low, security has just gotten better*. The clever high functioning psychopaths are working in finance or law. A large share of presidential assassination attempts pretty much boil down to "weirdo with a guns walks up to president, tries to shoot him."

*and arguably many of the historical examples got pretty lucky.

Good point, we probably don't remember many of the unlucky failures except the most hilarious, and end up ascribing too much competence to the successful ones. Like the Black Hand(?) clowns who got Ferdinand.

They're writing political screeds on obscure political forums out of the sight of the eye of Sauron.

Do you have something to tell the class?

Hey now, I specifically ruled myself out as a suspect by saying "high functioning," thank you very much.

I'm reminded of the Congressional baseball shooting in 2017, where six people were shot, including U.S. House Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R).

I imagine the response will be very different, though. That story was a blip. This story will be frontpage until the election.

Meh, reality is already asserting itself and the "blame MAGA" story is increasingly implausible with every fact revealed.

That story got massive coverage at the time. If the guy had spent more time at the range instead of campaigning for Sanders he could have altered history.

Not to forget it still tends to be mentioned, almost like a clockwork, on this forum whenever there is a case of (suspected) right-wing terrorism in the US.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats