site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31020 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 16, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Just saw the headlines about DeSantis banning an AP African-American Studies course. According to AP news, "Florida education officials did not specify exactly what content the state found objectionable."

I have two questions about this.

  1. What reason would there be to not say what about the content was objectionable? Would it violate copyright, or some kind of NDA?

If the DeSantis administration's objections to the content are reasonable, then sharing the content would make it impossible for intellectually honest people to say that DeSantis doesn't want the history of American slavery to be taught. Because the objections are left ambiguous, a person can fill in the blanks with whatever best fits their priors, and if someone who doesn't have exposure to current year progressive narratives on race, then their priors probably are "those backwards hicks just don't want their kids to learn things that challenge them." If I hadn't updated my priors since the debates on evolution and intelligent design, that's what I'd assume is happening. But because I've been paying some attention to cultural changes this past decade, my prior is now that some version of disparate impact/critical race theory/systemic racism/Ibram X Kendi's personal philosophy is in the course. But like my hypothetical leftist, I'm using my priors to fill in blanks that ideally the government would be filling in for me.

  1. Is there any information anywhere online about what material was in this course?

The government may not be able to tell us, for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean the information isn't out there.

This is why the right loses. It finds itself in a hair splitting debate which it eventually loses. Trying to make 'more accurate' African history courses is not answer. The answer is such courses should not exist at all.

Why not? If people are interested, then I think these courses should be offered as electives.

Think you are forgetting the amount of education of a high school grad even one going to an elite school.

Africans just haven’t figured into the big world events that high school kids don’t know. They’ve had zero influence on major ideologies, political systems, communism versus capitalism etc. The course is either going to be about soul food, Tulsa race riots, and rap music or be a crt/Marxist indoctrination.

The former I think high school kids need training in bigger things or the latter is just woke training.

If it's strictly optional I don't see a problem in teaching "lesser" things in addition to bigger ones. The school by necessity both would spend some time teaching you stuff you'd never need and would fail to teach you stuff you need or interested in. This is the inevitable effect of schools being mass product and people being different, even as kids. If optional courses can mitigate this to some degree, I don't see a problem with that. Teaching CRT I would see a problem, because it is evil and actually makes students worse off - it's like having them beaten up instead of PE. But if it's African history, or even soul food and rap music - I see no big deal with it as long as the necessary bases are still covered as much as they were before.

Africans just haven’t figured into . . .

The course is African-American studies, not African studies.

And Africans haven't figured into history much regardless of what continent they're on.

That is a ridiculous assertion. As @Gdanning pointed out, the course is specifically African-American studies, and Africans have been a huge part of American history. Multiple key events in the history of our country had to do with African slaves or their descendants.

I don't even think it's a particularly good idea for a course (it's too specialized imo), but your argument against it is factually false.

Multiple key events in the history of our country had to do with African slaves or their descendants.

As objects of history, sure I suppose. As subjects? Not so much.

As objects of history, sure I suppose. As subjects? Not so much

There is not really a meaningful difference between these things in historical study, as far as humans go. I mean we basically treat even 'great men' as basically objects of analysis anyway.

The Civil Rights movement says "u wot m8". That was one of the most significant events of the 20th century in the US, and was led by black people.

Really, African-Americans have not figured much into American history? Other than, say, the Civil War, Reconstruction, and the Civil Rights Movement? And they have not figured much into American culture? (Because the course is not African-American history; it is African-American studies, and hence is an "interdisciplinary course [which] reaches into a variety of fields—literature, the arts and humanities, political science, geography, and science —to explore the vital contributions and experiences of African Americans.")

This is rather silly. History education is not just teaching about the 'objectively' most important things in the world, otherwise British schools wildly under-study Asia and over-study British history, or at any rate certainly pre-Industrial revolution British history. Clearly, race and slavery has been enormously significant in American history, being possibly the biggest running issue in American politics for the first half of the nineteenth century, and certainly for a few decades before the Civil War, and of course being the cause of the Civil War itself.

The course is either going to be about soul food, Tulsa race riots, and rap music or be a crt/Marxist indoctrination.

It's so blindingly obvious you have almost no history education. Yeah, soul food and rap music is the sum total of the impact of race and African-Americans in American history.

Ok so tell me what important things have African Americans done?

Also we are talking high school history not college level. High School still has a need to teach basic things like why Democracy is important and how it developed etc. We aren’t talking about a college elective.

Also it’s not motte appropriate to say someone has no history education. Which isn’t true but you need to flesh out what you mean by that.

Ok so tell me what important things have African Americans done?

Well for starters until the Civil War they formed the basis of one half of the country's economic system, and thereafter were a crucial element in industrialisation. And aside from African-Americans as a group, there are countless individuals who are easily worthy of inclusion in any high school history education.

Also we are talking high school history not college level

Well race is one of the most important themes in American history across many centuries; even in high school that seems like a reasonable basis for an elective course; it's not compulsory after all.

So you can’t even name one important thing African Americans did and accused me of not knowing history?

Being a day laborer (farmer/factory worker) is no different than being a cow in the field. We don’t study horses in history class.

Race literally doesn’t matter to me. It’s not an important thing.

Being a day laborer (farmer/factory worker) is no different than being a cow in the field. We don’t study horses in history class.

Come on, man. Even if not being specifically directed at black people, this violates the rule to write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

We probably do not have a lot of day laborers who post here, but don't assume there are none, or at least people who are former day laborers or have family members who are. You can make your argument without literally equating people with cows in the field.

More comments

Being a day laborer (farmer/factory worker) is no different than being a cow in the field. We don’t study horses in history class

Completely wrong. Social history is one of the biggest disciplines of the field.

The fact that they were regarded as no different than a cow in a field in a nation that claimed to be for liberty is arguably a huge deal that deserves plenty of attention no?

More comments

While I don't agree with the poster you responded to we already have an AP course that covers all of these topics, it's called AP US History or APUSH and it's probably the most widely taken AP class. All of these topics are covered in it. You can find a list of AP courses here, an African American studies course does seem kind of out of place. An African History course on the lines of AP European History would fit much more with the rest of what's on offer.

My point is that I don't see the problem with an elective course that takes a closer look at one of the most important themes in American history. If it's out of place I'd say that's an argument for adding other similar AP classes looking at one aspect of history in more depth, for instance say a class in economic history.

AP courses aren't really about being electives, they're for college placement. Whether or not highschool students will choose to study this or not has very little to do with their interest and much more to do with how it will impact their college application.

That's a shame, but that's more a problem with the American school system than it is a problem with offering an elective class on African-American history.

More comments

If colleges are going to start requiring some diversity BS elective, maybe this knocks it out as an AP class in high school, saving students later time and money?

At which point the blame lies upstream. But just looking at my own bookshelf, I could teach a state college freshman elective (how I'd rate an AP class) on African American Thought from Doughlass through Du Bois to Baldwin and McWhorter Next Week. The idea that there "isn't enough material" is absurd, and meant to say something else.

Clearly, race and slavery has been enormously significant in American history, being possibly the biggest running issue in American politics for the first half of the nineteenth century, and certainly for a few decades before the Civil War, and of course being the cause of the Civil War itself.

This is the correct answer. Of course African American history is important to know, so simply offering the class as an elective is perfectly legitimate. I would prefer a more general ethnicity course, which covers the issues relevant thereto globally, not just in the US, but still.

Well, I said ethnicity, not skin tone. Regardless, the question is not whether the experience is "coherent." It whether examining

and comparing data from a variety of societies is likely to be more analytically fruitful. I think the answer is yes. Works like this one, work on middleman minorities, and John Ogbu's work on immigrant social mobility certainly benefited from that approach.

Edit: Added links.

This whole thread makes me think that we have people who think that it's "woke" to portray African-Americans, or black people in general, doing anything interesting, important or notable, so I'm going to use it as a point to discuss something else I've thought about for the last couple days...

Some days ago I noticed that there is going to be a new movie called "Chevalier" on a black composer/musician in 18th century France. The way I saw this was noting that far-right social media persons like Lana Lokteff were yukking up how ridiculous the mere idea that such a person might have existed is. "We wuz and shieet" and other trite catchphrases in full display, declarations that wokes are now going to claim that Mozart was black (because the post Lokteff is quoting talks about him as "black Mozart"), that the only reason why this movie is made is anti-white hatred (because the composer is portrayed as facing racism) etc.

Of course, even a modest amount of Googling would show that this movie is indeed about a real person, Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges. The trailer does not appear to show anything that would majorly clash with the Wikipedia article - Chevalier de Saint-Georges did indeed enjoy fame in prerevolutionary France, was an accomplished swordsman, at least was rumoured to have an affair with a female aristocrat, experienced racism (because of course he would, this was an era when there was still slavery in the French colonies, and of course a biopic is going to show the subject facing adversity) and was involved in the French Revolution.

He's not supposed to be a literal black version of Mozart, and the trailer does not even refer to Mozart - it obviously happens in France, and if you know literally anything about Mozart, you know he's an Austrian. Based on the Wikipedia article and other stuff I've read about him, he was a fascinating man, and the only weird thing about there being a movie about him is that no-one has made one sooner. The only weird thing about the trailer is that there's no obvious reference to his duel with Chevalier D'Eon, which would of course have the potential to take accusations of preposterous wokery to stratosphere.

Some comments (not necessarily in Lokteff's thread, maybe in one of the quote threads) indicate that it's still odd that someone would make a movie about such an obscure character(???) or that they doubt Chevalier de Saint-Georges even existed, because, well, apparently 18th-19th century Frenchmen would invent a black composer just so that someone could make a woke movie about him in 2023 to foment white genocide.

This seems also remarkable in the way that if there's one thing where even anti-black racists have sometimes acknowledged black talent to exist, it would be music. Apparently the whole narrative about black accomplishments and innovations just plain don't exist as reached the point where a large portion of the "race realist" sphere recoils at portraying black people as anything beyond literal A. Wyatt Mann caricature types.

Oh, hey, I wrote a paper about that guy in high school French, all the way back in 2004. TBH, I didn't even remember he was black, but vaguely remember the other stuff. If I still have that essay on a jumpdrive backup of my HS nettwork drive, ...' I probably won't read it, because I remember barely squeezing out something I thought I could get away with turning in, but I am at least a little confused that I'd forget almost everything but the guy's name.

still odd that someone would make a movie about such an obscure character(???)

His oeuvre isn't notable, private life par for the course for someone of his time, place and class.

Given that Galois still lacks a movie, despite his professional accomplishments being notable in their own right while his non-mathematical behaviour is quite cinematic (involved in the French revolution (1830), spent .5 of a year behind bars, once released get into a duel over women, die in said duel aged only 21), means biopics aren't made in descending order of interestingness of the person depicted.

This whole thread makes me think that we have people who think that it's "woke" to portray African-Americans, or black people in general, doing anything interesting, important or notable, so I'm going to use it as a point to discuss something else I've thought about for the last couple days...

Some days ago I noticed that there is going to be a new movie called "Chevalier"

What % chance is this movie made if its about a straight white male? What other French 18th century minor celebrities have gotten movies in the last 20 years? The selection of the character was obviously made for woke reasons. Its not even clear he is the most prolific 18th century composer named "Chevalier". There are 3.

Its not even clear he is the most prolific 18th century composer named "Chevalier".

Chevalier here is not a name but a title (rendered in English as "knight")

Speaking of accomplishments of black people in 18th century Europe, for anybody familiar with Russian history, there's this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal

English Wiki unfortunately doesn't do full justice to his fascinating biography - he was captured and gifted as a slave to Peter The Great, got education, was freed and grew up to be a man of many talents, who took active role in Russian politics, served under several emperors (or empresses, as it were), was exiled to Siberia and then brought back, got highest military rank in Russia, was overseeing the whole army's engineering corps (there's a joke somewhere here about the army engineering works being so corrupting you need to bring a person from far away Africa to effectively manage it), introduced Russia to the concept of eating potatoes (they were known before, but not as common food), and was a great-grandfather of Alexander Pushkin, considered the founder of modern Russian literary tradition.

Interesting parallel with Alexandre Dumas, author of The Count of Monte Cristo, whose father was also a black general (son of a slave and a french aristocrat). A little suspicious. Did these authors make up an illustrious and exotic ancestry in their diversity essay?

I think you are pointing to a real thing. I do find the whole dynamic frustrating and perhaps you're only addressing the right wing side of it because you think it's what this community, especially in the context of this thread, needs to hear. But it does feel quite incomplete without addressing that it is in response to what really does seem like an obsession among progressive creatives to add representation to every type of media. No, that some right wingers fell for it does not say volumes about their enemies or however that quote goes but this might be a good time to look at the whole dynamic from a top down view to better understand why partisans believe what they do.

The argument/values conflict at play I think is the left with "representation matters" and the right with either "You're retconning our culture and we don't appreciate that" or "This is not actually an accurate representation" or even "Hey this stuff is starting to look really cynical, it's starting to seem like you don't care at all about the myths you're rewriting".

To steelman the Left's representation narrative.

  1. Straightforwardly representation just matters. It's important for young minority kids to be able to see themselves as agents in society capable of anything. Majority people don't have this problem and cannot easily understand how disempowering it is to grow up never seeing anyone who looks like you represented in the media you consume. The epitome of this is that reddit story of the black kid seeing Mile Morales and exclaiming "He looks like me!". This is the kind of story that ultimately melts ours hearts and even my black cynical heart lightens three shades at the thought*. It costs very little to get minorities this representation and many of us just straight up find joy in it for its own sake even if it might be partially vicarious.

  2. There already is an overwhelmingly large amount of white representation in society. It's not hard to find images like this poking fun at the concept. Just for the sake of variety exploring other identities and cultures is valuable. Most of the super heroes are cis hetero white dudes as is historical canon, as are contemporary figures just because of demographics. And if your for some reason want to watch all white media you can settle for merely 40% of new content or look to the back catalogue.

  3. These media products always had ideological components and preachiness, you just didn't notice because it was preaching your ideology. Did you not notice how every villain for a decade was a cell of brown middle eastern terrorists?

To Steelman the Right's 'stop shoe horning' narrative

  1. Our culture and myths actually matter, cynically retconning aspects of them completely divorced from their context is cheap and the outcome is almost always mediocre because you're prioritizing ideological soap boxing over quality.

  2. It's very uncomfortable that your idea of progress seems to, at all times, consist of minimizing the existence and representation of people like me. It may be unfortunate that other races/gender/ect have less representation than us but it was never an explicit goal of ours**. It's tremendously difficult to shake the frame of "us vs them" when your absence is celebrated by 'them'.

  3. There seems to be a kind of cynical element where you are going out of your way to offend us as a marketing technique. You release some new revision of an old IP custom designed to be maximally antagonistic towards us hoping that there is a backlash, and sometimes generating one yourself, in order to trick people into thinking consuming low quality corporate produced slop is meaningful political action.

Conclusion

Now this 'Chevalier' movie actually sounds pretty solid and like it doesn't deserve the scrutiny from the right it got. But for every Chevalier that seems to be a half dozen 'Velma's. In a better world without this culture war front I don't think it would have gotten that scrutiny. But we don't live in that world.

I'd appreciate refinements on the basic generalized arguments on each side of this debate. I think there is a kernel of truth in both but they're kernels deep in the center of massive irritated swellings of culture war.

*My black cynical heart refuses to let me get through this without a foot note that the The Walt Disney Company trademark probably paid good money for me to see this reaction on reddit.

**ours being contemporary mainstream conservatives. Please don't quote me some historical racist diatribe about keeping undesirable out of the film industry that zero mainstream conservatives today would endorse.

arguing against both steelmen

I don't think representation matters for either 'empowering' or improving outcomes of minorities in an already anti-racist society. In terms of being motivated or moved by media, consider how anime, which is thoroughly culturally japanese, is loved by whites, blacks, and others worldwide.

On the other hand, 'minimizing white people' is only really bad to the extent it represents confused or malicious tendencies among those minimizing them - by the same logic above, it doesn't really do anything other than that. So directly and vocally pushing back against black representation isn't effective, and just makes you look kinda dumb like "LESS BLACKS IN VIDEO GAMEZ".

And it seems unlikely imo 'offending as a marketing technique' is a contributor to even 10% of casting lots of ethnic minorities, or 'woke themes' in shows generally - it seems like a big change for a small effect, I haven't seen any internal-to-production accounts of that (whereas I have seen some internal accounts of cartoons or tv shows being written or cast by 'crazy wokes'), and the explanation of 'people who really want diversity' is much simpler

Did you not notice how every villain for a decade was a cell of brown middle eastern terrorists?

I did notice how for approximately one decade, the demographics of terrorism were accurately portrayed (in the ballpark of 75% Muslim) on a small number of TV shows (24 and Homeland being the only notable ones) which likely gained popularity for that reason. Note that "accurate" is perhaps overstating things; from what I recall, seasons 2-5 of 24 (season 1 was pre 9/11) had about 50% Islamic terrorists. The primary terrorists on Homeland (at least in season 1) were 50% white.

Both of these shows were both heavily criticized for this.

I'll also note that even on these TV shows, the portrayal always very carefully exemplified the George W. Bush ideal that the problem was Islamic terrorism, not Islam. Frequently Islamic terrorists were merely pawns of evil Dick Cheney-ish white people (season 2 of 24 - Halliburton engineered the attacks to start a war in the middle east and sell weapons) and Muslim anti-terrorist agents were nearly always included in the cast. Characters who were unreasonably suspicious of good Muslims were frequently portrayed.

I also noticed that before and after that, most terrorist villains were explicitly made European to avoid offending people.

Your post reminds me of the archetype of a 'centrist' movie/video game critic persona found on various blogs and Youtube channels that would go on tirades against Anita Sarkeesian and the like for 'pointing out sexism' and whatever else. To the point they would be denying reality itself just to rebuke every word ever written by a feminist.

Just like the reason for the main character in a video game being a guy is sexist and the reason the women in the game are dressed to sexually provoke men is sexist, the reason for this movie existing is racist. There is no lack of fascinating men in the world. The reason this fascinating man is getting a movie is because he was black.

To borrow an argument from Anita Sarkeesian: It's not that you can't make a game about men and scantily clad women without it being sexist. It's that the reason for these things existing today as they do and the cultural context surrounding them is sexist, and it's worthwhile to recognize that and point it out for what it is. The same is true here. It's not that you can't, in theory, make a movie about a black man beating the odds in white society. It's that you can't do it today and not recognize it for what it is and most importantly why it is.

Actually, the argument makes a lot more sense for black people headlining movies than men in video games. Because most of the audience for those games is made up of men. (Statistics showing that many women play "video games" misleadingly lump all types of video games together. The types of video games that people like Sarkeesian complain about and which star men have a largely male audience.)

It would be better for students spending an entire year reading (1) Paine, (2) Declaration, (3) Articles of Confederation, (4) federalist papers, (5) anti-federalist papers, (5) constitution, (6) Jefferson and Adam’s correspondences, and (7) key early cases (eg Marbury, Gibbons). That provides a much more detailed American history background compared to…AA history.

I think this a narrow and parochial view of American history that almost no contemporary scholars would subscribe to. High politics is, of course, very important, but so is economic history and social history. A student who has a detailed knowledge of the federalist papers and related debates in the early republic, or in later periods congressional debates etc. still has a fundamentally incomplete understanding of American history if that's all they know about.

It's an elective. They will be taking this course in addition to a US History survey course, not instead.

Scarcity is a thing. Doing this means doing less of other things including an in depth review of more important American history.

My guess is a lot of the things I list are covered only in a cursory manner. Do high school students read all the federalist papers? Do they know there are anti federalist papers? Do they understand the importance of the constitution in relation to foreign bond holders?

Scarcity is indeed a thing, but no student will ever get a complete and in depth understanding of every period of American history, that's just not realistic. So there are going to have to be some somewhat arbitrary decisions on what to cover and what not to cover, elective classes just means students are choosing what they cover in depth, which is fine.

More comments

You seem to be arguing that the mandatory US History survey course should be two years, which is fine. But that leaves less room in student schedules for all AP classes, not just this one. Do you oppose offering AP Stats or AP Bio for the same reason?

More comments

It would be fascinating to arrange the Federalist and Antifederalist Papers as a Reddit-style discussion tree. I’d definitely read them that way.

Because it is akin to the government subsidizing courses to teach QAnon conspiracy theories as the truth.

This is a pretty low-effort hot take. You aren't even talking about teaching Critical Racial Theory, you're just broadly asserting that "teaching African-American history" is equivalent to teaching QAnon conspiracy theories. This is inflammatory enough that you should at least make some effort to justify such a claim.

The course, as many have pointed out, is "African-American studies", not "African-American history". The assertion that teaching X-studies (also known as "grievance studies") is equivalent to teaching QAnon conspiracy theories is far less controversial and far easier to support than that "African-American studies". That is, the problem isn't that it's about black people; the problem is that it's grievance studies.

Your reprimand is both based on a false premise and undeserved.

Your reprimand is both based on a false premise and undeserved.

Swap "studies" for "history" and my reprimand remains unchanged.

You can post all the criticism of "grievance studies" you like. You just can't drop sneering hot takes. You, certainly, should know this.

Swap "studies" for "history" and my reprimand remains unchanged.

Which is just you being unwilling to admit error, because the difference is significant.

Which is just you being unwilling to admit error, because the difference is significant.

Funny, then, that I actually used the word "studies" in the same post you are whining about. But do go on with your bad faith nitpicking over a word and pretending that you actually believe I don't know the difference.

Edit: This post, where I clarified. In the original warning, I did say "history." If I went back and rewrote it to say "studies," I would still write the same warning.

It's certainly higher status, but the way African-American history seems to be taught in the states is that it's inextricably linked with the idea of omnipresent, shadowy conspiracy of white supremacists - and one that wasn't comprehensively destroyed by the Civil Rights Act.

Now, I personally think it wasn't a 'conspiracy' just white people acting in their own self interest in excluding a racial group with a roughly 10x higher propensity for violent crime from their neighborhoods. (the homicide ratio between black/white is fairly constant through time btw, as if it were more a function of innate aggression and impulsivity rather than something environmental).

If you don't believe black people are that violent, or that the exclusion is just in some way, it can look like a conspiracy. We know that black people have a particularly optimistic and rosy view of themselves, and are least likely to suicide out of all major ethnic groups.

But given what has happened to many cities since the Civil Right Act has passed, it's clear that 'White Supremacy' has no power in the US, and teaching people that such a nebulous and nefarious and powerful group is still out there, conspiring and harming black people is really quite similar to QAnon.

(which in my opinion is a false theory promoted by some psyop outfit[1] designed, among other things to absolutely muddy anything and everything to do with actual pedophile conspiracies which undoubtedly exist but are modest in extent and not all powerful, just middling important. Because everyone who starts writing anything about pedo influence networks and allows any feedback will have to contest with 50 excitable QAnon morons driving the signal/noise ratio to shit.)

[1]: I believe the 'psyop origin' because QAnon posited there are 'good insiders' trying to save the US, and you just have to wait a bit and they'll fix things. Preaching passivity.

They didn't say that ~'if you want to fix things, you should get care about local politics, go into politics if you are well established, don't do stupid things, try to get as much power for your party, support police, fight against Soros prosecutors, destroy the Con inc grift' etc which are actually important endeavors needed for true regime reform in the US.

Really? I'd think the hot take would be that any critical studies curriculum is utter garbage would be the default anywhere that isn't a left wing echo chamber. But lets examine.

The College Board has refused to pre-release its entire curriculum. Red flag.

African American Studies courses typically taught in colleges are almost universally utilizing CRT and are pro-socialism and communism.

Lets start with the Wiki, go to the history portion:

A specific aim and objective of this interdisciplinary field of study is to help students broaden their knowledge of the worldwide human experience by presenting an aspect of that experience—the Black Experience—which has traditionally been neglected or distorted by educational institutions.

Oh, so the whole endeavor is, indeed, founded on a conspiracy theory.

Now, its quite hard to get detailed course curriculum/syllabi for the entry level courses at most the major universities I looked at from their websites. Here's one of the more detailed ones I can find from a large uni Georgetown.

The introduction to African American Studies, which currently satisfies a General Education Requirement, traces the African American experience, which spans four hundred years from the colonization of the US and the installation of trans-Atlantic slavery to the present day. Throughout their expansive history, African Americans have consistently created modes of self-fashioning even in the midst of institutionalized anti-black racism. African Americans developed rituals, traditions, music, art, dance, literature, and spiritual practices; kinship structures and communities; and political and social theories and practices that negotiate the contradiction at the core of the uneven experience of US democracy.

Through an examination of primary and secondary sources, this course will introduce students to the distinct epistemologies and methodologies of African American Studies. As Robin D. G. Kelley states, African American Studies “interrogate[s] the construction of race, the persistence of inequality, and the process by which the category of ‘black’ or ‘African’ came into being as a chief feature of Western thought. Students learn how slavery was central to the emergence of capitalism and modernity, presenting political and moral philosophers their most fundamental challenge.” Organized chronologically, the course begins with the historical and philosophical foundations to modern black experience from slavery to the Harlem Renaissance. The course then takes up how black thought and political action shaped the years from the Great Depression to the present.

So even in this brief introduction we are introduced to a wild eyed conspiracy theory.

Here's a syllabus for a course.

Kimberle Crenshaw, University of Chicago Legal Forum, “Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Class: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Policy,” pg. 139-167

Week 11: African American LGBTQ Communities

Week 12: African American LGBTQ Communities

So certainly at least one required reading containing a conspiracy theory and two whole weeks dedicated to a highly intersectional topic.

So yes. There is a mountain of evidence the median AA Studies course will teach, as truth, at least one unhinged conspiracy theory. Likely multiple. On top of that if the NRO reporting contains even a grain of truth on this, there is ample amount of space for such things in the college board's course.

Really? I'd think the hot take would be that any critical studies curriculum is utter garbage would be the default anywhere that isn't a left wing echo chamber. But lets examine.

"African-American history" != "critical studies."

So yes. There is a mountain of evidence the median AA Studies course will teach, as truth, at least one unhinged conspiracy theory.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether you've provided a "mountain of evidence" about the "median" AA studies course, only say that your initial post did not even put this much effort into justifying your assertion, and you are like several posters who've been reprimanded recently for assuming that all you have to do is say "African-American" and the most low-effort weakman sneers will speak for themselves.

Students learn how slavery was central to the emergence of capitalism and modernity, presenting political and moral philosophers their most fundamental challenge.”

This is clear nonsense, of marxist origin. Industrial revolution was more likely a product of the conditions: by high rate of savings, enclosures efficiently realloacting workforce into factories, inventiveness enabled by a tolerance for eccentricity and particular features of the UK at the time - lack of manpower, access to coal, lots of flooded mines, rationalism etc.

Slavery was of miniscule importance. What great resource was supplied from the slave areas ? Sugar ?

I guess this comes down to how central you think 'central' implies. Was it the single most important factor? Maybe not. Was it nonetheless important? Yes; the growth of Northern textiles was enabled at least in part by cheap Southern cotton, protected by tariffs.

"Lots of flooded mines" is not really an independent variable. Flooding had been a major limit on how deep mines could be profitably dug for roughly two millennia.

I think the independent variables behind that are the relatively-cold temperatures and the depletion of English forests (creating a demand for coal sufficient to make machine-pumped mines profitable), though I'm not 100% sure.

"African-American history" != "critical studies."

The course, per the OP, and the AP linked article is, "African American studies". So it is not a history class, by title, it is a critical studies class, by title (and probably in truth).

I'm not going to argue with you about whether you've provided a "mountain of evidence" about the "median" AA studies course, only say that your initial post did not even put this much effort into justifying your assertion, and you are like several posters who've been reprimanded recently for assuming that all you have to do is say "African-American" and the most low-effort weakman sneers will speak for themselves.

No. I think the median critical studies class, which this one holds itself out to be, speaks for itself.

So, again. You reprimanded me for 1) Your own inability to distinguish between the words "studies" v. "history"; 2) Not providing evidence that no one in favor of the dubious curricula provided; and 3) Being vaguely racist (or something?).

No, I stated why I reprimanded you. The reprimand stands.

"African-American history" != "critical studies."

I would disagree. While it's theoretically possible (and has existed in the past) for an African-American History course to not be taught from a critical theory persective, the reality is that they have become synonymous in practice. Gender studies, queer studies, indigenous studies etc are all so deeply intertwined with critical theory (I would argue by design) that there is really no distinction to be made in contemporary academia.

As to the original claim being made that these are essentially just left wing conspiracy theories, I agree with that claim though I agree that the poster didn't substantiate their claim with evidence. However, I will offer a piece of evidence - one of the tenants (and there are a lot of conspiratorial ones) of CRT is that liberalism and the Civil Rights Movement basically amounts to a psyop (they wouldn't word it as such) by the White supremacist society to make Black folx think they are no longer oppressed and are equal to Whites but in reality this is just a cover story so Whites can continue to oppress Blacks.

I cite Critical Race Theory: An Introduction by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic for this.

How so? Are you claiming that any possible set of material about African-Americans is a false conspiracy theory?

I am saying the median AA Studies curriculum is.

AP courses for gunner students aren't as optional as they seem. If this is the easiest history AP for a year everyone will take it and it will have nothing to do with do with interest.

In addition to this issue, we actually pretty heavily restrict what courses and sometimes even extracurriculars are available: I’ve given my rants on the death of shop classes and rifle teams in the past.

Joining AP Human Geography in the joke "padding out your 5 scores" category.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats