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PaperclipPerfector  4d ago (text post)   18715 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 30, 2026

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I have never watched Mad Men, but there is this meme where two men are in an elevator. The first says, "I feel bad for you." The second says, "I don't think about you at all."

If you had two stickers, one labeled US and one UK/EU, which sticker would you put on the first man, and which on the second?

On the first thought, maybe you'd put the US sticker on the guy who says, "I don't think about you at all." Because after all, the US is a superpower that just Leeroy Jenkins its way through foreign affairs and seems to have grown increasingly disinterested in what Europeans have to say about it.

When people are polled, however, something interesting emerges: https://ecfr.eu/publication/how-trump-is-making-china-great-again-and-what-it-means-for-europe/

Here is one poll question: Generally speaking, thinking about the US, which of the following best reflects your view on what they are to your country?

In Switzerland, 21% of people view the US as "An adversary—with which we are in conflict" compared to just 8% as, "An ally—that shares our interests and values." They seem to be on the extreme for Europe. The UK seems to be on the other (European) extreme: 25% view the US as "An ally—that shares our interests and values." The EU10 is in the middle at 16% seeing the US as an ally.

The reverse was polled to Americans: Generally speaking, thinking about the EU which of the following best reflects your view on who they are to your country?

The total for the US was 40% who would agree that the EU is "An ally—that shares our interests and values." This percentage is higher in Harris voters than Trump voters, but importantly, Trump voters were still at 30%, which is higher than even the UK's rosy view of the US compared to the rest of Europe.

Another interesting question is: Which of the following best reflects your view on the EU's global standing?

46% of Americans said, "The EU is a power that can deal on equal terms with global powers, such as the US or China." Comparatively, EU10, Switzerland, and UK were all in the 30s of percentage points. There seems to be a gap between how important/capable the US thinks Europe is compared to Europe's self-perceptions.

The pattern emerges that people in the US are more likely to think that the people of Europe are both capable and share our interests and values, while the people of Europe disagree. I don't know who is right, but I think it is important for both groups to be aware of this emerging dynamic.

The EU thinks of the US a lot because they are very clearly just a vassal of ours, and they hate us for it. The US perception of Europe is that of an adult thinking about a child.

Think of all of the meetings an letters and absolute bullshit that they did in response to Ukraine/Russia. It was ALL just whining (like a child would whine) to try and get us to do something. If you asked a random European what they thought of Donald Trump, they would have an answer, likely a negative one. If you asked an American what they thought of almost any European leader they would have no idea who you were talking about. Does the EU have a president? Is it a government of some kind? Some countries have kings, but also presidents and prime ministers? What is the "house of commons" and "house of lords" and what the hell are the various political parties? Torries and bories and dinghis and labor and whiggies or something? It's all a joke.

And now consider that this morning news broke that there had been some sort of NATO-but-not-really meeting that didn't include the US: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/4/2/uk-led-coalition-of-35-countries-vows-action-on-hormuz-strait-gridlock.

Here was their big plan:

The countries participating in Thursday’s summit, including the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, and the United Arab Emirates, have signed a statement demanding that Iran stop its attempts to block the strait and pledging to “contribute to appropriate efforts to ensure safe passage” through the waterway.

"Pledging appropriate efforts", yeah okay. With what? It would take a whole-of-Europe effort, with every country pledging their entire Navy to match the US.

I'm meandering here a little bit, but truly: Americans just find Europeans annoying. They're like the rainbow kids at burning man saying "why can't we all just live like this [where rich people give us free food and drugs and alcohol and spend millions of dollars on entertainment for us] all the time, man? Just living totally free and united [in the middle of a desert where it costs $400 to get in]???" They are not a serious people.

I think this is why Trump's message about Europe opening the strait themselves had some resonance with Americans. They can't. They are children who can't think strategically, and got themselves tied into a situation where they are at the behest of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. A regional conflict between Israel (and her vassal, The US) has realistically threatened their economy. This is the second time this has happened in the last decade, btw (previously, with Russia and natgas).

Little Marco's speech at the Munich Security Conference lays out the American perpective on Europe: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dlL3pwlO2rE

Americans just find Europeans annoying.

Except the data showed the opposite effect. Americans think Europeans are more capable than Europeans believe themselves to be.

Or maybe that's the crux, Americans think, "Europe is about the same size as the US when considered together, they coordinate together through this EU thing. Even working individually, European nations conquered half the world in the recent past. Europe is capable of doing more, but they are not for some reason." Which is frustrating to Americans.

Meanwhile, Europeans think, "America is so big and we're so little, they are so rich and we're so poor, their military so dominating and ours so stagnating. We fall over at the smallest breeze and America blowhards keep puffing."

If ChatGPT is to be believed, though, the EU countries have spent slightly more on supporting Ukraine in the current war than the US has, despite having only about 70% of the US GDP. You can argue that because the US does other things around the world that benefit Europe, this is only fair, and indeed it would be even more fair if the EU had spent even more than they actually have. However, clearly the EU countries have not just been sitting around asking the US to help.

If you had two stickers, one labeled US and one UK/EU, which sticker would you put on the first man, and which on the second?

EU citizens most probably think about US slightly more than US citizens about Europe, but what is more important that these thoughts are very tenuously based on reality.

In US imagination, Yurop is shithole whose inhabitants live in caves, eat grass, are daily blown up and beheaded by terrorists and, last but not least, are deprived of iced drinks and air conditioning. Some time ago, Blue Americans saw Europe as paradise where everyone has guaranteed health care, but this waned.

In EU imagination, AmeriKKA is crack hood where nothing happens except school shootings and gang violence. Some time ago, Europeans, especially Eastern ones, saw US as land of plenty where everyone lives like Texas oil multi millionaires but this faded too.

and, last but not least, are deprived of iced drinks and air conditioning

This one is actually true though:

https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/02/climate/europe-air-conditioning-heat-wave-intl-latam

Also getting iced drinks at restaurants in the Czech Republic was basically not a thing when I lived there in the late 00's.

If you had two stickers, one labeled US and one UK/EU, which sticker would you put on the first man, and which on the second?

The actual answer is that the meme is not applicable. People in the US and EU think about the other plenty. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose, I'd say the US gets to be Don Draper in this scenario, if only because a lot of Americans seem only tenuously aware that people in other countries exist and have lives (Tanner Greer dubbed this type of thinking 'big country autism'). But the reality is that it's extremely easy to elicit thoughts on Europe from Americans, whether that is praise or contempt or seething.

The pattern emerges that people in the US are more likely to think that the people of Europe are both capable and share our interests and values, while the people of Europe disagree.

The reason I don't think the Mad Men Meme applies is that I think this difference in attitude is not due to an asymmetry in concern (i.e. Americans caring more about Europe than vice versa) but due to the power asymmetry. As it stands now, while the US is allied with most of Europe, European nations are very much junior partners. That means getting jerked around by the interests and the whims of the US. I am fairly confident that if circumstances were reversed - if the military and economic security of the US turned on the impulses of European voters, or we were staring down the barrel of an economic crisis because European leaders did something retarded - Americans would be at least as cool on Europe as Europeans appear to be on us right now. Similarly, I think the greater American optimism about the EU's power is explained by this power asymmetry. What Americans perceive is that the US doesn't always get what it wants from the EU. What EUers perceive is that whenever there's an international crisis, they're stuck monitoring the situation while the US does whatever it wants.

Actually, the EU is Don Draper, feigning aloof superiority while privately riddled by anxiety.

I am fairly confident that if circumstances were reversed - if the military and economic security of the US turned on the impulses of European voters, or we were staring down the barrel of an economic crisis because European leaders did something retarded - Americans would be at least as cool on Europe as Europeans appear to be on us right now.

Americans would probably be less anti-European than Europeans currently are anti-American. This is because there's an element of snobbish contempt and reflexive ego preservation in the European attitude that really doesn't exist in American attitudes towards Europeans outside of extremely online spaces.

Normie Americans think Europe is Notre Dame and Big Ben and Oktoberfest and Italian cafes, oh and don't they have some issues with terrorism? Still, beautiful place, would love to visit one day.

Normie Europeans think America is a country full of backward nouveau riche troglodytes who make houses out of wood and probably plastic and styrofoam and drive big stupid cars and kill each other with guns and eat nothing but McDonalds, Velveeta, and probably plastic and styrofoam and call it "cuisine," and worst of all they have the gall, the absolute gall to think they are equal or even superior(!!) to us and that they can tell us what to do! They won't say all that directly to your face, but 2 out of 3 Euros are unable to contain their seething contempt and will eventually have to get in a "witty" (passive-aggressive) dig about guns/racism/big cars/food/etc apropos of nothing in an otherwise friendly conversation.

Early Americans thought their political system was superior to European monarchy, but they copied European styles and imported European fine goods and high culture. Europeans have never had anything but contempt for American culture, and this contempt and wounded ego greatly amplifies their dislike for America.

2 out of 3 Euros are unable to contain their seething contempt and will eventually have to get in a "witty" (passive-aggressive) dig about guns/racism/big cars/food/etc apropos of nothing in an otherwise friendly conversation.

You don't think that Euros make similar witty remarks about each other's countries when talking about each other? It's just normal nationality-related bants. They may be unfunny, of course, as bants frequently are unfunny, being that people frequently are unfunny.

None of this matters. Pro-MAGA Americans seems to clutch to anecdotes about smug Europeans being smug to sidestep the fact that Europe currently has very obvious reasons to be angry at America - ie. doing things that America supposedly has wanted from Europe (hiking up defense spending, cutting immigration, taking more responsibility for Ukraine, European leaders going into a frankly embarassing effort to kiss Trump's ass personally in 2025 etc.) and have received, as a reward, scolding from Vance, tariffs, the Greenland affair and now a looming huge energy crisis caused by Trump's impulsive war in Iran.

Now, there's a lot of contempt for america in europe, but from what I've seen there's also admiration, especially among the working class. My wife and I went to New York last december and my Spanish in-laws were quite jealous. They wanted as keepsakes american one dollar bills and statue of liberty merch. I think that's because despite all they hear on the news, the US remains a place they admire. Maybe for the people who can afford to visit it, it has less cachet, but from other europeans I know that have visited, I still see that they, on some level, admire it. The USA they hate is a construct created by the news media (both theirs, and the US blue tribe media).

Actually, the EU is Don Draper, feigning aloof superiority while privately riddled by anxiety.

Someone very pithily put it on X “Europeans looks down on us from below.”

Tbf I could also go back and say that the US is Don Draper, engaging in showy posturing to hide feelings of inferiority.

It's turtles insecurity all the way down!

Europe is forced to think about the US because it's the 400 pound baby throwing a tantrum. We'd all rather not have to do this but it's a bit hard when you go and poke the hornet's nest of Iran when we're the ones who bear the brunt of the conseuqneces. Europe + Canada need to get together and collectively tell the US it's grounded until it learns to behave: meaning punitive taxes on its tech companies etc; funny how Trump likes tariffs but the US threw a tantrum at the WTO last week because the WTO tariff free regime for services which had existed for 30 years was about to expire and the US wanted the clause forbidding tariffs on digital goods to continue indefinitely, see here: https://www.ft.com/content/ac711230-3ee6-467f-824a-3a74d356076c?syn-25a6b1a6=1

Iran played their hand very well when they announced they'd start targeting militarily 18 US companies they believed were helping the US war effort including their top finance and tech firms. If Europe did the same and started talking about how if unless the US started behaving very quickly then senior executives from Meta and Goldman etc. would be arrested and tried as accessories for their government's behaviour if they stepped foot onto EU territories (or alternatively these companies openly and formally denounce US actions) we'd get somewhere. These sorts of people have so much money that the true way to hit them is to restrict their global mobility. If Jamie Dimon gets told he can't visit or transit via Europe without risking arrest that hurts him a lot more than fining him like a million or something and is more likely to get him to put pressure on the US government to beahve.

We don’t think much about Europe because post British Empire, your will to do anything other than issue bland statements and hand wring about problems has waned to the point that Europe is impotent. You won’t arrest the heads of US companies if they come to your shores. You know it and so do we.

Yes, unfortunately Europe is totally cucked I agree. Europe talks a good game on how the Americans are bad (whether in relation to this war or more generally) but then doesn't back it up with actual action. Spain is showing some minor signs of developing a backbone, hopefully other countries quickly follow suit.

46% of Americans said, "The EU is a power that can deal on equal terms with global powers, such as the US or China."

polling Americans on geography or geopolitics is such a pointless exercise

The US used to be "we don't think of you at all" with respect to the EU -- they would do dumb stuff which harmed us but harmed them more (non-tariff barriers, messing with tech companies, buying Russian gas, etc) and the US really wouldn't react much. Under Trump II it's become a more openly adversarial relationship. Spain is almost an open enemy now (and has been since the Madrid bombings) and France is headed that direction.

ETA: Things are changing fast, France is now an open enemy if Bloomberg headlines are to believed.

Spain is fast rising up the ranks in how much respect I have for different European countries, France is still on top thanks to IVPITER Macron but that may be changing next year. Hungary may be about to get a bounce soon as well.

With what Spain did about the illegal immigrants last month - they don't deserve respect. I don't need more ex-illegals free to travel in the Schengen area.

I'm not a fan of that either, illegal migration is a net negative and the correct way to handle stuff if you need more people it to increase legal migration where you can filter who's coming in to ensure they are a net fiscal benefit in expectation, however that's their prerogative if they want to legalize a bunch of illegals and the other Schengen countries can complain (I would if I were them) but they seemed to have kept mum about it.

No - the right way is the gulf states model. No path to citizenship whatsoever.

Sure, that can work when it also comes with 0% income tax for migrants, it might make the locals in Europe throw their own little tantrum when companies start preferring migrants on 45k to locals on 50k because the migrant gets more money in their pocket getting paid 45k vs the local getting paid 50k after income tax. There's no reason for migrants to choose EU states over gulf states if there's no path to citizenship but they still have to pay taxes like a citizen, and no, Europe can't slash income taxes to near 0 for everyone like the Gulf states can, mostly because of its own obligations it's decided to take on towards its own lower classes.

Some European countries like the Netherlands and Denmark already have versions of lower taxes for recent migrants compared to citizens for like a decade or so but it's nowhere near enough what would be necessary if the citizenship prize wasn't available.

The US can't entirely ignore Europe without serious ramifications (as seen by the rather disinterested response to Trump's call for support in Iran), but we all know who wears the pants in that relationship. The US can't entirely ignore that continent, but it can get away with bullying, intimidation and what can be charitable described as "tough love".

It's worth keeping in mind that the leaders of European countries, on average, do not behave in a way that is representative of public sentiment. It costs nothing for a Berlin or London art hoe to go on a Free Palestine march, Berlin and London themselves are not nearly as keen on the prospect. This also applies to the relationship with the US, the EU is not going to entirely cut ties, even if things cooled significantly. Even the deployment to Greenland was more of a symbolic/shambolic affair that would make for an excellent comedy.

Consider that. The most powerful power in the world is slamming you with indiscriminate sanctions, not significantly different to what it uses against its most hostile enemies. It threatens to annex Greenland, and all you can do is make press statements to "express concern" and send like a platoon of dudes off to get their balls cold. Which, in a way, is reasonable. I doubt Trump could have actually annexed Greenland by force without a serious risk of his own supporters making a runner. Why would the EU need to do more than save face?

How did the EU 'lose' over Greenland? Trump backed down, no tariffs, no annexation, nothing. SCOTUS struck down his tariffs and the only thing he can do is emergency section 122 tariffs capped at 15% that expire in July.

I never said they lost. I said they made a symbolic protest, and that was sufficient. I am not excusing the vagaries of the current administration, merely pointing out the power dynamics at play.

If it was precisely sufficient, why assume it was "all they could do"?

Would "all they did do" make you happier? Because that is clearly true. The EU couldn't afford serious bloodshed over Greenland or war with the US. If Trump wasn't held back by domestic factors, they would have been almost entirely powerless to stop the annexation. You think Macron really wants to start a nuclear war, despite being the most hawkish leader, leading a country with a doctrine of first use?

I have never watched Mad Men, but there is this meme where two men are in an elevator. The first says, "I feel bad for you." The second says, "I don't think about you at all."

As an aside, another case where the meme carries different meaning without context.

https://old.reddit.com/r/madmen/comments/1joptde/everybody_understands_that_dons_bullshitting_here/

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