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PaperclipPerfector  6d ago (text post)   22205 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 13, 2026

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Over the last decade or so, I've heard the name Eric Swalwell a few times.

First, because he got caught up in a Chinese Honeypot, then because he obliquely threatened to nuke me.

He has reappeared in the news recently, not only as a California gubernatorial candidate, but also as an alleged rapist. Fox news is reporting that he will step down.

The balance of power in Congress will likely remain unchanged, as GOP congressman Gonzalez will also be stepping down, though the impact on California politics may be notable.

Historically, California's executive branch has been a powerful feeder into future presidential races. The fall of Swalwell will cause a localized power vacuum that may have unexpected repercussions.

As someone who is not a California resident, I have no special insider information here. Would any locals care to weigh in on how this is impacting things within the state?

he got caught up in a Chinese Honeypot

Awhile ago, someone had a post talking about feeling oddly disappointed by the bribes people associated with the Trump administration had been caught taking, as many of the dollar amounts seemed pitifully small. Scott made a similar point in Too Much Dark Money in Almonds: when you consider the power and influence afforded to the executive and legislative branches, the amount of money invested in campaign donations and PACs seems impossibly small.

I feel the same way looking at photos of the Chinese honeypot in question. I'm not saying she's ugly or anything, but she seems decidedly... mid? And this is coming from someone who has a thing for Asian women! There are plenty of Asian women who aren't even famous for their looks who are more attractive e.g. Tiffany Fong, Yvette Young, Jia Tolentino. I've personally met Chinese women who were hotter than her.

The feeling of being desired is the most powerful aphrodisiac. A 2/10 that seems genuinely, insanely attracted to you is better than an 8/10 that's only mildly into you.

I agree with this, up to a point. There's some floor of attractiveness where no amount of enthusiasm will compensate for it.

True. I'm just not interested in masculinity so even the most down-bad gay man* doesn't rouse me to lust... But I do think 2/10 is a fair floor for women.

(*I can imagine making an exception for a trans woman that passes really, REALLY well, but that's kind of the exception that proves the rule and anyway I haven't met any that do.)

I can't find any evidence that this was a honeypot operation. She had some role in his campaign and was photographed with him, but I haven't seen any evidence of a romantic relationship.

She was confirmed to have had sexual relationships with two Midwestern mayors, although there isn't anything credible I've seen saying the same was true of Swalwell. Probably comes down more to his ability to control himself and taste in women than Fang's boundaries.

I'm not saying she's ugly or anything, but she seems decidedly... mid?

If she were too hot, she would've been suspicious. "Why is this stunning lady suddenly trying to get into my pants? Is she a gold digger? Is she after my kidney?"

It's much better to employ a moderately pretty woman that presents as more easy-going and libidinous than average if you want her to seduce someone. Much easier to believe she was just bored and looking for some harmless fun if she's a bubbly six. Then you learn she blows like a Dyson and you are hooked.

Different beauty standards strikes again. All three persons you listed…are solidly 3 in China.

Is there a website or something that lets Chinese/other EAsian and Americans/westerners score woman and man of different ethnicities? Fascinating..

I have a classmate who for many years has been considered by me a 2, basically a female but not a woman if I want to be mean (actually the moment I realized that I might be a school bully is when I remembered many years later how mean I was to her) and has never hooked up with anyone in China. Went to Germany and found a dude who looks like a Nazi poster boy. Beauty is in the eyes of beholder indeed.

Different beauty standards strikes again. All three persons you listed…are solidly 3 in China.

I feel like China managing to withstand the obesity epidemic is also a decent part of this. Atleast walking around in China it feels like you don't see fat people as much. IMO in the West a lot of stuff around facecard-level attractiveness is pretty distorted by how many people are just fat and reshaped the bell curve as a result of it.

This is definitely a big part of it. I've met plenty of Chinese women, and very few were overweight. If you're using Tinder as intended (judging people solely based on their appearances) and you're forced to choose between an overweight Irishwoman and an average or slim Chinese woman, that's kind of a no-brainer even if you don't have a thing for Asian women.

I believe there was a project to have people from different countries digitally edit photos to create the ideal woman. The Chinawoman looked like she was 12, the westerners were decidedly more voluptuous.

Note that Asian women (and men, to a lesser extent) tend to have naturally more neotenous facial features than Westerners anyway, as per the meme. My ex-girlfriend was Chinese and only one year younger than me, but invariably got asked for ID when buying beer, when both of us were in our late twenties (note that you only have to be eighteen to buy drink in Ireland). A few years ago I saw the film Decision to Leave which stars the Chinese actress Tang Wei. Based on this screengrab from the film's trailer, how old would you guess she was at the time of filming?

Forty-one.

Well I’m not sure if you’re good at estimating Chinese women’s age (I’m not with western women). I do think being voluptuous is nice, but that’s mostly aesthetics, and people are into all kinds of weird shit anyway.

My comment was not about their faces; it was that these ‘ideal girls’ were so skinny as to lack many of the, uh, development of features associated with physical maturity in women. Westerners just like their women a bit curvier on average even if that means they’re not quite as skinny.

Meyerlemon's mentioned a variant of this before, and I'm kinda interested in how representative it is (if at all). Because while I'm not a good judge of how westerners look at women, I would not expect any red-blooded male's first comment on Naomi Wu to be about her face.

Different beauty standards strikes again. All three persons you listed…are solidly 3 in China.

I think it's the same with Black women. Black men like "yellow bones", White men like really dark ones (I thought the term was "blue bones", but every search engine suddenly disagrees). Asian men like Asian women with disturbingly pale neotenous faces and round eyes, White men prefer them sallower and with more... tsurime eyes.

It’s shocking when I realized that westerners do like women we consider hideous, with high cheek bones and those eyes. I thought that’s some sort of humiliation ritual until I found out that they’re somewhat consistent on pornhub.

Yes, high cheekbones are attractive in the west. So is a physically larger woman than the Chinese prefer.

But are you sure that Asian porn doesn’t attract a crowd that likes yellow skin and slantey eyes?

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Can’t tell either way, and you should know better than I do. Or not. I certainly don’t interact with enough Americans to say anything.

You have weird conceptions of China, being one of the only people who refer to us as chinaman on this website (a bit old fashioned, and if you don’t mean ill I don’t really mind). Maybe it’s due to the lack of interaction, which I understand.

I don’t think our people are physically smaller than yours, and judging by how latinized Americans are and will be, its surely favoring us.

America is still 60% white, and above 70% heritage American(blacks aren't that much smaller on average, except negritos which we don't have). Latin mestizos are short but rather... stout, there's a reason they do most of the heavy labor in America, and they make up most of the rest.

What's wrong with the term Chinaman? I know we don't say 'Mexicoman' or whatever, but we have lots of 'China buffet' and no 'Mexico restaurant', so it's at least consistent. I've never claimed to be fashionable. I kind of assume men looking for Asian porn specifically want women who look more... stereotypically Asiatic. It's probably a fetish. Otherwise why would they look for Asian porn? White women are more attractive(and Chinese beauty standards certainly seem to gesture in that direction).

"Chinaman" is historical usage that harkens back to the 19th century. It may not be a slur, exactly, but it's kind of like calling a black person a "Negro" - it is not plausible that you are unaware that it's no longer considered polite.

America is still 60% white

No, America is already minority white, and the "official figures" that claim otherwise are deliberate lies.

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What's wrong with the term Chinaman? I know we don't say 'Mexicoman' or whatever, but we have lots of 'China buffet' and no 'Mexico restaurant', so it's at least consistent.

Honestly I don't know. It seems innocuous, but media and my liberal friends keep telling me it's not a good thing to be called Chinaman. Maybe for historical reasons but I'm not building railways and we have our country in order again, so why do I care. Granted they're quite sensitive with words and I personally don't mind harmless racism; it's endearing sometimes. I've encountered some, but at least from what I observed on my Transamerica trip, middle Americans are generally friendly and trustworthy people if a bit blunt, not the racist hillbillies my liberal circle usually insinuates through their jokes and chit chats. But what do I know? I'm not going to disagree with them on English.

I kind of assume men looking for Asian porn specifically want women who look more... stereotypically Asiatic. It's probably a fetish.

I honestly don't think that look is stereotypically Chinese. Mongolians yes, Chinese northerners maybe but not really. At least not the non-malnourished Chinese.

Otherwise why would they look for Asian porn? White women are more attractive(and Chinese beauty standards certainly seem to gesture in that direction).

Certainly white beauty standards spread to all corners of the world where there are things that can be called civilization. I'm sure our beauty standards are influenced to some extent, but as you noticed the slim anorexic neotenous look is not something Americans exported to us. You don't prefer that look anyway.

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What's wrong with the term Chinaman?

The problem is historical use of the word. The literal parse of the word doesn't matter.

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I kind of assume men looking for Asian porn specifically want women who look more... stereotypically Asiatic. It's probably a fetish. Otherwise why would they look for Asian porn?

It's important to note that "stereotypically Asian" is more than just weirdly-shaped eyes and <del>yellow</del><ins>slightly-less-red</ins> skin. I think it's far from impossible that many Asian fetishists are just into skinny women, but they find that searching for Asian porn is a more surefire way to find skinny women than trying to use the search term "skinny".

Can you give me an example of a woman who'd be considered a 10/10 in China?

Zhao Luisi of the current generation, and Michelle Reis (the girl on my pfp) are my favourites.

Just look up any dancing e-girls on douyin. Obviously they use many layers of plastic and filters, but it gives you an idea.

Side note: China's tiktok brainrot is really no better than ours!

We must have decidedly different tastes then. For me it's Ming-Na Wen and Michelle Yeoh (when she was younger). And Lexa Doig but she's half scotish/Philippine

At the level of detail needed to tell an 8 from a 9 from a 10, I can't tell what those chicks look like because the Wikipedia infobox pictures are taken in soft focus. Is this normal for Chinese women in Chinese media?

IMDB has a few more photos and videos (1 2).

the girl on my pfp

Is it from a movie?

Yup. Wong Kar-wai's Fallen Angels.

Everyone gushes about In the Mood for Love. Myself and the missus tried watching it but found it painfully slow and ended up turning it off after about forty minutes. Maybe I should give it another try.

I'll tell you this much, if you (and especially the missus) find WKW's movies boring or unrelatable, that's probably a good thing. It's a good sign you're happy where you are and your relationship/marriage is healthy.

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Not who you're responding to but Li Gong in her day was enormously popular.

Now she is stunning.

She’s pretty, but I think she’s polished her look to be more appealing to Western audiences. Same with Zhang Ziyi.

What about the Japanese? Do they care for Chinese actresses? I feel like their tastes might overlap, but not be exactly the same. I know some Taiwanese actresses were or are popular.

As usual I have to insert that I cannot speak for Japan, but in my my experience Japanese don't make much commentary on Chinese models, actresses, etc. The same cannot be said about Koreans--meaning Koreans are regularly commented on as kirei or kawaii, or, since I am in Kansai, meccha kirei na hito. (Lit. very pretty person.) I guess there were some Taiwanese who were known --notably Vivian Tsu, though I haven't seen her around in years (probably because she's about 50 now and has no doubt had facial surgery which irrevocably altered the cute image she had in the 90s/2000s). Some women are probably part Chinese though, and just don't trumpet it over PR.

A side note: More buxom (by Asian standards) women are rarely top tier actresses or models here. They end up, in their brief career spans during youth, doing so-called "gravia" or semi nude books and calendars (グラビアアイドル is a term) or pornography. At times they transition to the mainstream (as in the late Ai Iijima) but that's almost unheard of.

"gravia"

The typical English transliteration is "gravure".

I probably knew that, thanks.

Thank you. Obviously it’s not everybody, but I have a general feeling that the Japanese know very little about China, even less than your typical American, to a point I find genuinely irritating.

Part of it is the lack of cultural export, and the perception of us being (not necessarily incorrect) low class. Like their typical Chinese girl in anime still have that twin hair buns or wear Qipao and good at Kongfu or whatever, some century old stereotypes. Cultural inertia is another piece. But sometimes they're just oblivious enough to, for example, think obviously Chinese gacha games are made by Japanese companies. Really? Like freaking Arknights or whatever has a whole storyline built around Chinese-flavored characters and New Year events. It's right there. I mean they have people who know us really well, the old 漢學家 but I guess they’re on their way out.

Re the buxom women, I feel like they somehow associate bustiness with promiscuity (not sure, that’s a feeling through second hand cultural exposure), and it’s sad those models ended up where they are.

Well I don't know how sorry I feel for them. You can mourn a world where they feel that's their lot in life, but no one's twisting their arms (as far as I know) to take off their tops. It's lucrative in the short term and I think historically very much exposed the girl to abuse (from agents, scouts, management) as well as public ogling. In the sense that an unworldly or unsavvy young woman is duped (or drugged!) sure, it's too bad. It's potentially tragic. It's infuriating. But there's a naïvete that I find a bit cloying in certain girls, if it is naïvete at all--it might just be that they're disingenuous in the style of the burikko if you're familiar with that term. Add to that a certain different cultural approach to sex and it is what it is. Outright rape and abuse certainly does exist, though, and I suspect was more of a common routine in the past. If there's anything good about Post your own porn sites or camgirl type business, it's that to some degree the girls can have more control and not be gang raped on camera for ten grand or however much a pittance they have historically been paid.

Exceptions in my mind, or situations where I'd genuinely feel pity, are where the girl, due to her endowments and the sleaziness of those around her, was, at puberty, treated as a sexual plaything by a relative (fondled or worse) and internalized this pathologically. I've heard terrible stories.

Also curious how big a regional skew there is to this. Based on my travels in China I'd say that the Northern provinces tend to produce a higher average attractiveness for both genders, but a lot of that's the height and relative sturdiness.

I think northerners tend to prefer people who are taller and more robust. Southerners from Shanghai, Zhejiang, and Jiangsu also have noticeably different tastes from Cantonese. They favor the “小家碧玉” type, smaller, more delicate, with a neotenous look, while Cantonese tend to prefer the “miss hongkong” style like my example 4 and 6.

Beauty standards across the country are a lot less diverse now than they were maybe 20 or 10 years ago to many’s dismay, probably because of social media. Now everyone like neotenous faces and slim figures. Southern cultural hegemony and its consequences. It’s a familiar pattern in China with northern political/military dominance paired with southern cultural take over.

I've always found it funny that mainland Chinese always refer to Shanghai "southern", when from a geographic perspective it's near the geographic latitude median and if accounting for population density, probably north of that. At least in my experience, the people from places like Jiangsu, Nanjing, Shanghai, Hangzhou seem a lot more similar to people from Beijing than than to people from Guangdong.

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Still as a Westerner I'd say the Northerners are more likely to turn my head aesthetically. I did a jiujitsu tournament in Beijing and I was shocked at my division having good numbers at 100+ KG and big, beefy local Chinese. Admittedly mostly from Tianjin or further North than that but compared to the largely Southern overseas diaspora it was a pretty big shock to me.

Zhang Ziyi

I had such a crush on her when I saw Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and House of Flying Daggers as a child. Still would today, honestly.

Should’ve included in my post.

Here, voted by close to a million thirsty Chinese dudes on Hupu, a sports forum.

Exhibit 1

Exhibit 2

Exhibit 3

Exhibit 4

Exhibit 5

My personal favorite

I agree with the vote mostly.

I was considering maybe 咬人猫 but being a cosplay dancer might skew things to a certain demographic, and obviously everything would be super curated and choreographed.

You’re more online than me :( honestly they all look the same after the makeup…

Agreed on 2, 3 and 6. I have noticed that Chinese men seem to favour a more androgynous look.

I once dated a woman from Taiwan who would be considered slim by Irish standards. She told me that, back home, the beauty standard is for women to be exceptionally thin and flat-chested, to the point that her classmates in secondary school teased and mocked her for her comparatively big boobs. (Needless to say, I wasn't complaining.)

I talk with a friend when visiting Shanghai - do women here have ass and boobs? His answer was short - we call them the runways because a plane can land on them without shaking.

I do think our men and women look more alike than Westerners. Gender swapping has been a common plot line in Chinese novels and shows, going back more than a thousand years. The story of Mulan for example dates to around 400 AD and involves a woman serving in the army masquerading as a man.

She told me that, back home, the beauty standard is for women to be exceptionally thin and flat-chested, to the point that her classmates in secondary school teased and mocked her for her comparatively big boobs.

God knows how much I hate that trend. I don’t understand why some Chinese men like that candlestick woman look. They’re already borderline anorexic, and still somehow “fat”? Screw that.

Oh well, I guess selection pressure will take care of their obsession with small pelvises and lack of breast milk…

The story of Mulan for example dates to around 400 AD and involves a woman serving in the army masquerading as a man.

It was my favourite Disney movie as a child, and probably a major contributing factor to my taste in women.

I do think our men and women look more alike than Westerners.

During Covid I binge-watched Silicon Valley, an American sitcom featuring a minor character played by Jimmy O. Yang. I took a screenshot of him and sent it to my brother with the caption "I think my thing for Asian women is getting out of hand, because he's kind of cute?" Obviously I meant it in jest, but if Yang were to troon out I do think he'd have a much easier time passing than most white men.

I think even in East Asian reckoning Christine Fang is not that good looking?

Can’t speak to her looks, but she would be at least a year older

I feel like these videos being 10 years old and largely being unposed photos which somebody's harvested as opposed to the linked girls having access to 2025 cosmetics and controlling their own online images insofar as what's posted also makes it hard to compare.

I feel like if I just go through my female high school classmates' photographs (and how they aged) a good double digit number at the very least would be prettier than her. She's, like, second quartile at best?

Some of it might also be the makeup. An ex of mine who was extremely pretty when you used East Asian makeup techniques and products, or hell, didn't use any makeup at all, looked shockingly bad when she got her makeup done by a Western professional.

School Photos? Facebook photos they've curated?

I'm not saying that she's secretly some 10/10 goddess I just think it's a bit of an unfair comparison between 'woman in random political candid photos' and social media girls who can aggressively curate their images

Nah, like, shitty photographs from banquets and such, reunion parties, the like. That and stuff like yearbook photographs. I don't stalk peoples' instagrams, not having one myself.

Half of them don't seem to curate their images at all anyway

Yeah she’s mid but I’d say better than the three named in @FtttG’s post.

I think in this case Swalwell was seeing lots of women and this was just one broad among many. The Democratic response to that scandal actually makes more sense then: Swalwell saw lots of women so why would we assume this one had any special access?

The power of being proactive, pleasant and introduced from the right angles for a woman cannot be understated.

I feel the same way looking at photos of the Chinese honeypot in question. I'm not saying she's ugly or anything, but she seems decidedly... mid? And this is coming from someone who has a thing for Asian women! There are plenty of Asian women who aren't even famous for their looks who are more attractive e.g. Tiffany Fong, Yvette Young, Jia Tolentino. I've personally met Chinese women who were hotter than her.

Arnold's wife Maria Shriver and the woman he cheated on her with Mildred Baena. I feel confident in saying that I'd choose Maria over Mildred.

But I do wonder if the choices for Arnold and the choices for weren't actually as good as you'd think. Arnold might have been in a sexless marriage. And Eric might have been a creepy politician with weird power fantasies that turned lots of women off.

The choice between "will you have sex with an ugly/mid woman or no woman at all" is a lot easier for most guys to understand, and I think that might describe their situations more accurately.

Arnold's wife Maria Shriver and the woman he cheated on her with Mildred Baena. I feel confident in saying that I'd choose Maria over Mildred.

But I do wonder if the choices for Arnold weren't actually as good as you'd think.

For a married person discretion is a very important variable. For a married celebrity it's even more important. I'm sure Arnold could find several dozen attractive women willing to sleep with him that weren't escorts. How many of them would be okay with maintaining extreme levels of secrecy about their relationship?

For sure, and for Eric Swalwell having someone interested in his political career was probably an important variable as well.

I've never had a foreign agent try to seduce me, so I can't speak directly to what inducements they might offer, but I imagine even quite successful men are not so inundated with sexual attention from women that they would pass on a moderately attractive woman who actively wants to sleep with them, especially if they're not especially faithful or scrupulous (as appears to be the case with Swalwell).

I would also hazard a guess that genuinely gorgeous women who are willing to trade on their appearance have better career prospects than espionage honeypot.

I tend to agree with this. If a woman is youthful; slender; attractive at a girl-next-door level; and (seems to be) enthusiastically interested in a particular man, she's got an excellent chance at seducing him.

Perhaps people are biased by Hollywood movies; women in the role of femme fatale tend to be very attractive.

Also, I think people tend to underestimate just how much men value perceived female interest. As a man, if it seems like a woman is super-into me, that's a huge turn-on.

Last, as someone pointed out, it's generally more credible if a 6 is trying to seduce a man than a 9. But I also agree that a 9 is going to have better options than being a prostitute with a badge.

Maybe there's a certain impulse to look the gift horse in the mouth that'd come if suddenly 11/10's were materializing from the aether, as well? The woman might not look like a supermodel in photos but she's definitely in the realm of attractive and if she's got pleasant, positive energy that's likely gonna add a bunch more points to the equation.

Also having been on dating apps in the last decade, the attractiveness floor has cratered due to obesity and alternative lifestyles. Pleasant, non-fat and proactive can go miles for you.

If you're the type of person to take bribes to begin with, believing that you'll get away with minimal consequences, it makes sense that you might not be as picky as to which bribes. It is weird how they don't seem to be able to negotiate for that much, but I suppose there's not much room for that either and you just take what is offered.

And this is coming from someone who has a thing for Asian women! There are plenty of Asian women who aren't even famous for their looks who are more attractive e.g. Tiffany Fong, Yvette Young, Jia Tolentino. I've personally met Chinese women who were hotter than her.

Sure but are any of them dying to fuck you? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush as the saying goes. A somewhat hot babe who really really wants you > all the girls you're never gonna get.

I'm not saying she's ugly or anything, but she seems decidedly... mid?

A pretty girl men fight for

They've even started wars

How pretty does she have to be

When she's down upon all fours?

I find the ones who aren't so pretty

Are diamonds in the rough

Cause pretty girls may look good

But the ugly know their stuff

https://youtube.com/watch?v=TVNo40LA7yc

Well, I've already declared what I think of that opinion.

I'll second your take. I think it was maybe more that he had a lack of options rather than having some particular thing for this woman.

Looks aren't everything. If Ms Fang was in fact part of a Chinese Honeypot, then she was potentially trained in the arts of seduction at a government black site dedicated to the craft. Thousands of man years and billions of dollars may have gone into research and development of novel techniques and grueling conditioning.

The way she fucks probably violates the Geneva convention.

Aren’t all girls trained in the art of seduction? Is there really some mysterious art CIA/KGB/Mossad can teach? Nearly every girl takes some kind of dance courses since they were 5 like how every boy plays t-ball. Then girls do make-up together. Talk about boys all thru high school.

Sure some are better. But most have a lot of training growing up.

Professional seduction is definitely more than today's girls are trained in. You have to come on harder than a regular expression of female interest, because you actually want that particular man to respond rather than wait for the most bold one. But also if you make it look too good to be true, you'll make him suspicious.

Seduction is the first step. Women's sexual talents exist on a normal distribution like everything else. A honeypot who can't fuck can't do their job - I'm not going to spill my guts for a woman who gives unenthusiastic, toothy head.

This is why one of the CCP's screening questions for potential honeypots is "Do you enjoy the music of Taylor Swift?"

I may be contributing more than necessary to this thread but in my experience girls are awful at seduction unless they're very quick studies or have a lot of practice.

Exactly. A large part of modern dating dysfunction is both genders not knowing how to 'do the dance' especially with the introduction of modern technology. Impulses that'd maybe play out as a come hither thing in fleeting in-person contact don't work on apps or over DMs.

Yeah women shouldn't be seducing men, men need to have agency to perform sexually. All women need to do is express a bit of interest to the point that the man has the confidence to get it up and to know that she's not going to turn him down. The more she does the more likely she is to scare him off. Man being scared off is off-putting to a woman as well who at least wants a man to have the confidence to believe he is worthy of screwing her.

Then girls do make-up together.

Learning how to make oneself look more attractive is but one component of learning how to seduce someone. In courtship, men are traditionally expected to take on a more active, agentic role compared to women (e.g. women expect to be asked out, not to do the asking), so the skills associated with seduction are not generally ones that women learn by default.

True. From paintings, Cleopatra doesn't look like much to write home about, but her seduction skills are the stuff of legend.

There's a lot of men who would happily fall in love with a woman they might otherwise not pay much attention to when the second most powerful country in the world comes as a dowry and they're about to fight a civil war.

She also controlled the richest granary in the world, important when society runs on bread and circuses.

Endless jugs of fermented grain, huge buns of bread in reserve, the nile delta spread out in an inviting welcome, and countless hard obelisks and pyramids erected all long that river. Egypt is such a slut.

Indeed. I have often noticed how men who seem reasonably picky can be seduced by a very plain woman who is intent on it. As has been discussed many times, men are usually doing the work of pickup and seduction. When a woman makes an effort, especially if she knows what she's doing, it's all too easy. Add in a midlife crisis and/or marital doldrums and a lonely dude is an easy target.

Women aren't aware of how far being moderately pleasant and proactive can get them if not absolutely hideous

I'm not sure you're accurately accounting for goals here

Its hard work for a guy to sleep with a girl,

That's easy for a girl,

Once that's happened,

Relatively,

Its hard work for a girl to turn it into a long term relationship,

Relatively,

Its easy for a guy to turn that into a long term relationship.

(I mean, it might not be easy, but the ratio differences are different than for getting a girl to sleep with you).

A lot of this is dependent on girls trying to swing way above their natural level on the occasions that they do actually lead the dance, and then complaining that it's not working out for them. As a girl if you're possessed with a modicum of rationality in who you play moderately proactive with, you can most likely get a stable longterm relationship

I suspect that there are all sorts of social mores at play here that prevent women from making what could arguably be considered a "first move," up to and including a reputation among...other women, who would (or might) judge them for this. I was a trainer in a large group for a while (mostly women) and the one woman who was demonstratively affectionate toward me and the other male trainers was almost unanimously turned on (that is to say, turned against, thanks @urquan) by the rest of the female trainees. This was always done subtly except behind closed doors. There might also be the notion that a girl wants to play hard-to-get, but I'm not sure how far that goes.

A woman who communicates interest with a stranger even subtly is rare, outside an alcohol-drenched setting. Prolonged or repeat eye-contact, a smile, these can be very fetching. The nuclear arm touch. And of course sometimes it's the talking loudly to another female friend in your presence about some topic in which you may have interest, and deliberately avoiding eye contact with you when doing so. The modern equivalent of dropping the handkerchief.

Then of course there is the fear that if you show interest a guy will turn into a slobbering handsy weirdo who turns stalker. This is I think overblown but I do not deny it happens--it's certainly the scary version of why to be demure.

Note: Sometimes a smile and an arm touch is just a smile and an arm touch.

Yeah. When a woman just comes up to a man (who's a stranger to her) on the sidewalk or in a mall, 99.999% chance she's selling something, recruiting for a cult, trying to get you to sign some petition, or asking for support for some (almost always left-wing) cause. Or panhandling.

To be fair, if it's the right cult you might have a shot. (but so will everyone else)

I know for a fact I'd be susceptible to "love-bombing", especially if an attractive woman is doing it, because everyone I've ever thought of as a friend, ghosted me after a few months to three years at the outside and I have to assume I'm just deeply defective in some way.

There's definitely a subtle game to be playing but I'd wager that the woman was doing her best to be inviting whilst not being 'sus'. In my experience of listening to female friends complain about being taken advantage of for being proactive and 'leading the dance', it's also generally in the context of them trying to pull somebody who's giving low energy signals and also is frequently 'out of their league'. Thus there's a certain inherent correlation between these women trying to lead and feeling putupon.

I mean I'm not saying she had to be sitting naked on his desk or anything, but an awareness of how to play the game and a bubbly personality can do a ton. Even in the linked photos of the woman she's smiling and leaning in in most of them to randoms.

Sometimes a smile and an arm touch is just a smile and an arm touch.

Oh Lord. Years ago I was having lunch with three female colleagues, one of whom I had a slight crush on (she was engaged). I told a joke, whereupon the girl I was crushing on burst out laughing and placed her hand on my forearm. In my head I was just like "be still, my heart". I'm sure nothing was implied by it – unless...?

That's the beauty of it. It may have simply been an unconscious sign of trust and affection, which in this case you were wise not to have acted on.

OR an unconscious sign of romantic interest, which you were both wise not to have acted on given that she was engaged to someone else. Fidelity is a social institution (and one which is deep and regrettable decay), not a biological adaptation.

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I was a trainer in a large group for a while (mostly women) and the one woman who was demonstratively affectionate toward me and the other male trainers was almost unanimously turned on by the rest of the female trainees. This was always done subtly except behind closed doors.

OH I had to re-read this a couple of times, because I was trying to figure out if you were really saying "she was turned on by the female trainees" i.e. was somehow a very loose bisexual girl who personally liked both you and the female trainees, or if you meant "she almost unanimously turned on the rest of the female trainees" i.e. they were all sapphic for her. Wow, does the sentence make more sense when I read it right.

I don't know how you could have phrased it better, but this perhaps is my punishment for skimming motte posts while sleepy.

A woman who communicates interest with a stranger even subtly is rare, outside an alcohol-drenched setting.

I've had it happen, but typically with extreme plausible deniability, in the sense that their interest could be understood platonically and their invitations to date could be understood as an invitation for a nice time with a friend. This could be an attempt not to look too eager/excessive/expoitable, unfamiliarity with how you clearly show interest to someone (women are often pretty bad at it, because they aren't forced to practice), a kind of hedging of bets in case someone isn't all that compatible, or plain simple insecurity and rejection sensitivity of the same kind that causes men to orbit sometimes instead of stating their interest clearly. Probably a mixture.

Men stating their interest directly is almost always a terrible idea except when the event occurs as the result of a screenplay and the speaker is darkly mysteriously handsome confident and charming, and the woman gorgeous and available, i.e rare as hell. I suppose it has happened. Intrigue and some sort of two-step is far more common.

Reasonably attractive and not obviously insane women generally have so little experience with casual rejection (the female equivalent tends to be getting roasted and ghosted) that - well, imagine yourself in high school, never so much as asked out a crush before, going up to a girl and having her laugh in your face.

... or, in your twenties, it's "Sure! I'm really busy at work right now, though, but I'll call you later!" And, thirty-five years on, I'm still waiting for that call . . .

This seems to be the basis of what used to be termed "the neg." I've no idea if it's still called this, and general knowledge of the technique surely must render it ineffective now.

I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence by defining it, but basically it's a plausibly real but very subtle put down of the girl (this could be something as innocuous as briefly looking at your phone instead of her), ideally right around the time you've said something to get her interest, and presumably said something nice. Push pull, tsundere, whatever we're saying now. The unexpected, when being fawned upon is her norm. I certainly get it.

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A while ago, someone had a post talking about feeling oddly disappointed by the bribes people associated with the Trump administration had been caught taking, as many of the dollar amounts seemed pitifully small.

Link

Thanks.

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