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Notes -
Well, it happened. I've been frivolously accused of sexual assault.
Context: https://www.themotte.org/post/1092/wellness-wednesday-for-july-24-2024/234218?context=8#context
TLDR: I had a crush on an actual neurodivergent nerd girl in her early 30s, concocted a grand romantic gesture, had what I thought was a great evening with her where we kissed a few times. Then the next day she's coldly unhappy with me
I apologize via text but hear nothing back from her. She hasn't seemed particularly drunk, and had lots of opportunity to ditch me.
There's a part 2 to this story,
I run into her again a few weeks later (this is 2024) and she gives me a big ole body hug and invites me to hang out, making me internally panic. There's other people around so I can't really have a frank conversation with her. At the end of the evening, I ask her if she'd like to get dinner sometime, so we can talk in private and I can hash out exactly how she feels about me. She reacts poorly.
Via text she accuses me of acting weird. My attraction to her is waning. Some choice quotes: "I'm so tired of straight guys assuming I'm not asexual, anyways I already have a crush." Never mind her "pretty people dont light their own cigarettes" line, asexual people apparently flirt pretty openly when they've had any amount of alcohol.
We have a pleasant-enough text conversation that firmly makes me dislike her, or rather dislike how leftist queer neurodivergent activist asexual feminism has taken someone I could have liked and made them a shitty person. I leave things at that, the matter has been settled.
This was a year ago. Recently, I run into her at the pub in question, with some of my friends. I give her a cordial hello, find out she's going back to school for political science (read: a degree in activism). I liked her more when she talked about Hellboy and her Fullmetal Alchemist fanfiction. She says something odd about seeing a mutual friend mention me on Facebook recently and it confusing her. I say "I'm glad you're doing well" and take my leave.
The next day I get this banger, which is really the star of this entire post.
>Hey I didn't get to say this because we were surrounded by people but you've never apologized for sexually assaulting me on my birthday last year and I would appreciate an apology as that ruined my birthday and has made me feel not okay about you ever since
I already apologized to her way back at the beginning of all this. I considered replying with a terse apology, a reminder I had previously apologized, and a promise to never acknowledge her again, because I don't feel okay about her either. Instead, I blocked her on everything and will ignore her going forwards. This isnt a good-faith interaction, this is a person either fucking with me, or of questionable sanity. I'm not going to feed the beast.
She could actually fuck up my social life quite a bit if she wanted to, that bar is VERY important to me; most of my non-roommate friends in the city were met through that RPG club and the surrounding social context.
No further encounters after two weeks. Still feels weird to be walking around with an accusation of sexual assault upon me.
Excellent. This is the most sane response considering the context.
She is vomiting her crazy onto you and seeing if you will tolerate it. Don't.
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Under no circumstances should you put in writing anything that looks like "I'm sorry I sexually assaulted you."
Obviously, you did no such thing, and obviously, she is at best unstable and best avoided, at worst actively malicious. Ghost and avoid in the future.
If she blows up your social circle, well, that will suck and I'm sorry. But honestly I wouldn't want my social life to depend on a group that will summarily eject me on the word of a crazy chick.
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I'm sorry, what? Did a Mormon sneak in here?
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I want to call this out to OP. We don't know what happened, we don't know if you did anything wrong - but you report a lot of problems like this and adjacent to this so it is worth being careful, much more careful.
Maybe it's something about the way you look or talk and it's total SJW nonsense. Maybe you use words that should be fine but freaks girls out. Who knows, but you have had a few problems and you'll be much safer if you try and be a bit more careful.
Sorry but you should try and protect yourself.
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I’m sorry about this. From what you’ve said, you didn’t do anything wrong.
Unfortunately, I think the truth is that people who reach their 30s without marrying or being in an LTR on the way to marriage are often that way for a reason. She’s in her 30s, and going back to college for a degree with a tenuous relationship to direct employment — that points to aimlessness. That’s understandable in your early to mid 20s, much less understandable in your 30s.
I’ll counterpoint the cynicism by saying that I’ve never encountered this kind of instability from “geeky neurodivergent asexual” women. Of course, when I found about the asexuality things ended because of the obvious incompatibility. For what it’s worth, your interlocutor does not at all sound to me like their behavior matches the cluster — that cluster of people is usually more shy, reserved, and actually confused by sexuality, not manipulative about it.
It's hard to describe the anecdotes without context, but the asexual people I've met just didn't understand the concept of how a relationship is different from a friendship. I've been asked what is supposed to differentiate them by someone in this category before. I wasn't convinced about the existence of absolute asexuality when I first encountered it, but meeting a few of these people and seeing how absolutely bewildered they are by sexuality led me to the conclusion they they really don't have the sexual feelings that most people do. I've never met the "asexual but romantic" people, which seems to be the identification of your friend here; every asexual person I've met has clearly been as confused by romance as by sexuality, or talked about it analytically and outside the frame of direct experience.
But perhaps what's going on is one of two things -- she has relatively normal sexual feelings, but has general identity instability that makes her uncomfortable with it unless lubricated by alcohol, which seems most likely to me. Or, alternatively, she is asexual, and her confusion about the concept of sexuality manifests as an intense conflict resulting in the craziness you've encountered. Your choice quotes, "I'm so tired of straight guys assuming I'm not asexual, anyways I already have a crush," and "pretty people dont light their own cigarettes" just read as woefully neurotypical and narcissistic in a normie way. This is perhaps a case of a neurotypical person with identity instability latching onto concepts like asexuality and autism and queerness as validation for her weirdness. I'm not a psychiatrist, but this has what is coloquially called "BPD chick energy" all over it.
Talk about mixed signals! That's exactly the kind of thing that makes me think you're just dealing with garden variety crazy. "Let's hang out, but no I won't go to dinner" shortly after "you ruined my birthday"... especially combined with the "made me feel not okay about you" thing you got a year later, makes it extremely likely that this is a person with serious confusion about her romantic identity and desires, who over time built a positive or neutral situation into a decidedly negative one.
You said in your hypothetical rant that she said something like "all us freaks have is each other." Well, that sounds like someone that has made an identity out of weirdness. And I don't think it's healthy. I've certainly bonded with women in that way -- you know, "we have this in common and we understand each other like other people don't." But there's a time and a place, and calling yourself a "freak" when you do that just makes them sound like they're committed to weirdness not as an obstacle, or as a healthy part of personality, but as an active aversion and identitification with rebellion from the norm for no reason.
I'm sorry that a connection that meant so much to you at the time became so negative. But unfortunately the connection you had was always fictive, time-limited. This is not a person capable of stable bonds. There was no relationship to be had with her. And though she holds the power to destroy aspects of your life in her hands, she also seems much more interested in destroying aspects of her life -- including the connection she made with you, which may well have had the capacity to be incredibly meaningful to her, too. You're collateral damage in the mess she's made of herself. I don't say that beacuse I think you should sympathize with her, but because I think you should remind yourself that her own life is hot garbage, and certainly seems lonely. It's not like she rejected you for bigger and better things; she rejected you for smaller and worse things. She's the one who lost.
Yep. 'I hate you! Don't leave me!' is the best description of BPD I've seen. She seems to keep trying to drag him back into her orbit, but when he expresses any romantic interest she gets upset and pushes him away. Weird.
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She didn't say "all us freaks have as each other," that's a line from Hellboy, her favorite film, and also one of my favorites. I'm the one with the identity based around weirdness, which I assumed she also had. I intuited that line would have meaning for her, which is why I wrote it in the inside cover of the Hellboy trade paperback I gave her, which she noticed. The line isn't in the books, it's a very Del Toro sentiment. It's me expressing my sense of betrayal.
I actually do believe that she's neurodivergent, in addition to whatever other conditions she has. We can smell our own. I'm also an aimless adrift 30something.
She's not lonely. She's surrounded by cringe leftist queer activists, orbiters, and whatever a crush is, which I presume is the guy she bangs when she occasionally feels like it.
As someone who’s struggled with “I’m weird and that makes me cool,” I learned the hard way that the best thing you can do for yourself is to develop the ability to bridge your personality and values to normies. Making yourself a permanent outcast just perpetuates feelings of ostracization. I know you feel like an outsider, but I assure you that from your posts, you’re much more relatable and typically human than you think.
Even in your hypothetical rant, you’re attributing to her thoughts and values that she didn’t share. “Whatever happened to the Hellboy quote that I put in the book”, in that context, doesn’t sound like the description of a betrayal — it sounds like you’re upset she isn’t actually what you imagined her to be. You’re accusing her of betraying your perception of her.
That’s why she reacted so harshly to the kissing: you were a fun buddy to her, not a romantic interest. Unfortunately, she seems to have a big problem with actually vocalizing her thoughts and needs, and either accidentally or intentionally flirting as a form of social bonding, which is why you get anger only in texts. It’s genuinely possible that this is the dark side of my anecdote about asexuals not understanding the difference between sexuality and friendship — maybe she honestly doesn’t realize some of actions are clearly flirting, just sees people responding positively and so it’s positively reinforced.
Everything else makes sense and doesn’t seem like BPD or even craziness when I think of it that way: the “friend hug,” the invitation to hang out but aversion to dinner (which would be a date!), and the cold shoulder. I’m not sure she ever thought of you as a potential partner. Maybe she flirted in ways that were honestly ambiguous, but you’re both neurodivergent — are you certain she was acting and you were reading social signals correctly?
I’m still trying to solve the mystery of why I never ended up in a situation like this, and have had generally positive romantic experiences. Probably what I would have done with this girl is awkwardly ask her out in explicit terms, she would awkwardly say no, and even our friendship would fizzle out. I don’t make grand romantic gestures and I only rarely flirt first.
I guess I’m lucky that occasionally women have made their interest known explicitly, and understandably women who’ve liked me enough to go out of their way to make me know it had little trouble with ambiguous interest or attraction. Looking back on your initial thread, I realize I’m basically implementing @gorge’s advice: “It's easier if you go for the girls who are crushing on you, without you having to put in extraordinary effort.” What’s really tough is if you don’t have anyone crushing on you. But women who clearly state their attraction to a man don’t realize how powerful and important they are in the current social context.
I’m sorry if I made you feel judged. My goal was solely to try and relate to your experience and reassure you. I guess I overstepped. But I do think after reflecting that this isn’t a case of “crazy feminism ruins good romantic prospect,” I think it’s that you made a geeky friend and misread her friendship as attraction. I’ve done that many times, and probably would have in this situation, too. It’s very relatable.
It would have saved you both a lot of drama if you’d have clarified your relationship before you kissed her. The current social environment just makes ambiguity too threatening to everyone.
"Pretty people don't light their own cigarettes." This was not a necessary thing to say.
Also, the time to say "I'm not happy with you kissing me" was the first time I kissed her, not the next day
I am not mad she wasn't attracted to me, I'm mad that I'm being accused of wrongdoing, rather than this just being an incident of mutual misunderstanding between two awkward people. I knew I was going out on a limb pursuing her.
Also, "all us freaks have is each other" is the entire fucking ethos of her queer neurodivergent activist leftist community, except that it specifically excludes me as a straight white male. Yes, I was disappointed to find I was wrong about her.
You're taking me a bit too literally here, or really under-selling my self-awareness.
Alright, I'll quit while I'm behind. Best of luck to you.
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Firstly, this sucks, but I would expect it will ultimately blow over if you ignore her. These kinds of interactions run on attention, and when she gets none from you there's nothing left for her to get out of it.
Secondly, the lesson to learn here is that this:
was always a function of this:
It was never going to be some unhappy coincidence. No, better luck next time. If you select for girls that aren't like normal girls, they will end up not like normal girls. If you like a girl for her atypically nonfemale coded interests and interactions, she's going to be nonfemale coded in other ways.
This comes up again and again and again with spergy types chasing MPDG's with attractive 'buddy' interests attached to boobs. But her depressingly NCP reddit tier asexual text is somewhat correct. She nerded out with you about comic books, which you admit is atypical. That's a sign that she's not interacting with you in a predictably girl-guy way.
But let's imagine the opposite. You meet a male friend who's super sensitive and warm and emotionally available. He doesn't share your hobby interests, which is atypical for guys you select for as friends. But dammit this guy shows you attention and makes you feel special. He's emotionally available, fun, playful and you feel refreshingly wanted. One day he makes a move on you, and you recoil. He's GAY?!
Are you actually suprised? This doesn't invalidate all of the friendship gestures as completely ingenuine. Nor do I think none of MPDG's flirting was real. But overall, you get what you get.
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I remember that post! And damn, it's already been a year.
As back then, I still have no actual advice to give. My personal inclination would be to tough it out - according to your version, you haven't done any wrong, so unless you suddenly realize that you did indeed "sexually assault" her, it wouldn't do to grovel just to appease a crazy woman. If this ruins your social life, then...yeah, I get it, that sucks, but better have it ruined that way than by making yourself become an absolute doormat.
No groveling apology will be forthcoming. Allow me a therapeutic hypothetical rant.
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Most pleasant ${CurrentYear} dating experience. Things are bleak when even neurodivergent nerdy girls in their early 30s act like spoiled children.
Date a nerdy girl, they said. There's less drama with nerdy girls and they won't play mean-girl head-games like the sorority girl types, they said.
Date a woman in her 30s, they said. Women in their 30s are more mature and level-headed than younger women whose brains haven't even fully developed yet, they said.
I kind of admire the chutzpah in a way. Have you stopped beating your wife?
Never apologize when there's nothing to apologize for. It's just an admission of guilt and leaves more chum in the water for sharks.
This reminds me of why I've never thought of social circles as a reliable/renewable dating source, and generally play it relatively conservatively when I do make an attempt. A failed attempt with a chick in your social circle, even without her slandering you afterward, can lead to your reputation being tainted and ruin future chances with other chicks in your social circle due to female mate-choice copying. If she slanders you afterward, that could mean you gaining pariah-status and getting excommunicated from the social circle altogether.
She's not really part of my social circle, she just goes to the same pub my RPG club meets at. She vaguely knows one person I know, and I definitionally don't want to fuck any woman in her social circle.
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Goals from last month went pretty well! I set up a cold-turkey block on my computer that will lock the internet behind a 1000 character random passcode after 9pm. I can get through it if I need to, but it's a pain in the ass and usually get me to turn of my computer at 8:30 pm every night to avoid having to deal with it in the morning. Scheduling also has gone pretty well, although I need to have better follow-through with lab stuff. Sleep has also been pretty good, but I'm always waking up at 4 am quite hungry. The temporary solution has been to eat a banana and go back to sleep, but I'm trying to prevent this from happening in the first place by shifting my diet away from simple carbs.
Systems goals for next month
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I need better professional boundaries. I gave well-intentioned general advice to a Redditor back in India, after their brother had ended up committed to a psychiatric hospital in the UK. They'd commented in /r/India seeking advice on how to bring them back. I was surprised when I received a DM request from a new account, wanting to talk to me. I had assumed it was related, and was happy to guide them through things step by step or put them in touch with medicolegal aid.
No, as I found out, only after I assented to their request to get on a phone call with me. I have probably scandalized or traumatized half the compartment in my train back to Scotland, solely on the basis of what they could overhear of my end of the conversation. I am definitely conked. I did not expect to hear Soprano-tier drama, involving petty Indian royalty, murder, rape, arson, fraud, kidnapping and levels of familial dysfunction and violence beyond belief. Almost everyone in this story is an awful person who almost deserves the things that have happened to them. I have a new benchmark for generational trauma.
The only thing preventing me from calling the cops is that I'm not entirely sure that the lady I was speaking to was sane. Nothing I have said is an exaggeration, I have a splitting headache and need some sleep.
This deserves a long response for you but I have a busy day today.
The good news: you are in good company, all of us need to figure this out.
The bad news: your family will ask for medical advice. Your friend's partner will complain about her vaginal discharge. Your barber will start telling you about their suicide attempt in the 8th grade.
Since you are a psychiatrist you will probably work on polishing your presentation and bedside manner and unless you run into demographic issues or somewhat you will have insane interactions with the general public. The same response to you will be useful professionally.
Figuring this out is hard. In psychiatry it will be a core topic at least, which will help.
Also with respect to psychiatry - don't sleep with your patients. It sounds stupid advice but it isn't.
Borderline girl. Realizes her psychiatrist is the only person in the world who "gets" her. Turns on the love bombing. Gets visibly horny in the office. She's hot, too. Psychiatrist, just a mortal man, fights for his life to resist.
There's like, a nasal spray you can all take that turns off your sex drive in case you have patients like this, right?
Some interesting things related to this:
Obviously it doesn't happen very often, thank god.
It's also more of a problem for therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists who do therapy (rarer) - consider that for many people talking to someone for an hour a week is more than they talk with most people in their life and family. Med management doesn't create that level of intimacy.
Also most men are not experienced with being hit on at length, especially by someone seductive (and with borderline the pleasing aspect is quite possibly why the pathology exists given its association with trauma).
For this reason old school docs would suggest to their trainees that they hire prostitutes if they weren't getting enough gratification in personal life.
Amusingly back in the day it was actually considered treatment for borderline women. It actually worked???* Obviously terrible from an ethical perspective however.
Malpractice has gone back and forth if it should be covered. Obviously it's a completely avoidable mistake that should end in the psychiatrists professional evisceration, but if malpractice covers it the victim can get more money.
Professional boundary rules are incredible strict for psychiatry. In other specialties you can eventually date patients if common sense steps are taking in most jurisdictions. In psychiatry never ever ever. This makes sense but is taken to an extreme - one guy lost his license because of a woman that he had a patient encounter with decades prior to them meeting again that neither remembered.
*Basically having someone who you can't push away successfully helps with developing appropriate personal relationships and coping skills. These days a boyfriend who don't peace out substitutes.
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I appreciate it, and trust me, I know. In this particular situation, I was blindsided. I expected person A to call me to figure out how to potentially exfiltrate their brother from a British hospital (and I have a consultant uncle who works nearby, might even be the same trust). I was in very deep with Person B before I realized, hang on a second, when are we getting to your brother? By that point, I was concerned for her life.
In this particular case, everyone involved needs to be involuntarily committed, and the keys thrown away. A whopping two of them were, in fact, hospitalized, but had family pull strings to get them out. After they had made a good faith effort to murder said family! One of those incidents happened in the States! Half the people involved are American citizens! I knew the Indian psychiatric system can be... less than ideal, but this had me rolling around in the throes of a seizure.
This is just how it works in India. Doctors are expected to dish out advice for free, especially to friends and family. And you know what? I support this. It works fine. My dad and grandpa delivered me by c-sec, while my grandma would have been in there too if it wasn't for the fact that there was no more room for grossly overqualified assistants. The world didn't end, nobody died, and nobody can ever accuse my dad of not being there in the delivery room.
This is normal. This is good. In India, the expectation that you will treat your own kin is as natural as chai at 5:00 pm, and - at risk of being stripped of my NHS badge - I genuinely think it mostly works. The West, meanwhile, has spun this elaborate theory that doctors must not treat their own families because they’ll lose “clinical detachment” or “objectivity” or some other deontological talisman. This, in my opinion, is a spectacular act of collective catastrophizing. The reality is, my parents cared more about our family’s gynae problems because it was their family. They didn’t suddenly forget the Krebs cycle or lose their ability to prescribe antibiotics at the whiff of a cousin’s maiden name.
("I can't operate on that boy, he's my son!" - An absolute pussy, that's the solution to the riddle)
When I was back in India recently, I gently confirmed what I already suspected, my nephew had all the hallmarks of ADHD. I pushed, with the full force of my reputation and family standing, for my cousins to get him properly assessed. If I hadn’t, nobody else would have. He’d have spent another decade wondering why school was a personal hell designed for someone else. My family listened, partly because I’m a psychiatry trainee, but mostly because I’m family.
Let’s be honest: nobody objects when the family architect drafts blueprints for free, or the family mechanic fixes your brakes after dinner. Nobody gets a lecture on “professional boundaries” when Auntie fixes your tax returns. Yet somehow, doctors are supposed to recuse themselves because of the overwhelming risk that love and affection will erode our capacity to wield a stethoscope.
I consciously refrain from doing much of this, these days, at least in the UK, both because it's not the culture and because the GMC lacks a sense of humor.
Haven't fallen into that trap, and I don't intend to! The GMC had me remove "Grippy socks, grippy box" from my flair, on pain of death. Goddamit, are there any perks left in the profession?
Maybe we can at least have the family C-section, even if it makes for a very confusing set of post-op notes and insurance claims.
One of the first things I encourage students to do is to look at the people around them and pillage them for things that they like and things that they don't. I still remember the names of the physicians who make up who I am.
You should also do the same for the environments you've experienced.
People don't like to admit it but the standards for care and for professionalism in the U.S. are higher than anywhere else.
Is this one of those times? Is being more strict here part of why? Or is it irrelevant. I don't know.
You could make an argument that investment compromises objectivity. You could argue it's sensible in India where knowledge and passion are much less evenly distributed. You could argue that investment trumps anything else. I don't know what the answer is - but you should actively think about it and make choices instead of falling into family involvement as your "this is water" where in the UK it may be more malpractice. Being deliberate will bleed into your professional skills in a positive way*.
I don't think one particular decision is correct, but it is one you want to actively consider.
Two additional points - it's much easier to be involved with family medical care in "medical" care. Psychiatry is inherently trickier for a multitude of reasons. It's also worth noting that it becomes easier to avoid boundary violations if you avoid boundary crossings. Some old school doctors will insist everyone refer to them as doctor so and so not because they are stuffy but because they find it helps with boundaries. Nobody talks back during a code with those guys...and of course there are costs for that.
I'd also note that based off of some of your other writings I suspect you have or will develop the "rizz" as the kids say. Many a young male doctor has gotten into trouble because of that (don't worry outside of work or with staff lol). Caution.
On a more prurient note, unironically disagree - lability is liquidity after all.
I agree that US doctors are among the best in the world. However, I do not think that this is in any way related to the restrictions placed upon them. It's down to selection effects and an abundance of resources for training/practice.
It is definitely harder. Treating a family member for depression would be more challenging than slipping them a PPI for their heartburn. I do not think it is impossible, just something that needs to be done with care.
Hey unc, I was born with the rizz! Well, not really, because I was a nerdy kid and only discovered I'm good at chatting up women while in med school.
Dating within the workplace is fine, back in India. It still happens a lot in the UK! People tend to be cautious about it, but I still do not know how much of that is actually warranted or overblown concern. I'm reasonably confident that one of the interns at my workplace had a crush on me, but I was in a committed relationship. Shame, because she was really hot, but I wouldn't cheat, and I knew she was going to move away from Scotland soon.
It gets more difficult when you're a consultant, not because you're less attractive, but because accusations of impropriety are more easily leveled against you, especially if you approach a junior doctor.
I have never dated an actual patient, or asked one out. At most, I've offered medical advice to people I'm seeing, but I'd do that for anyone who asks politely.
Not taking a stance (although I have one), just suggesting some deliberation and care and thinking - it will serve you well with deciding where to put the boundaries.
Haha it's less about dating in the workplace and more about "ooooh I can fuck this girl in the closet" type trouble. Increasing puritanism and declining doctor respect have thankfully hampered this, but its not uncommon for young male doctors to get into trouble just by following along with flirting - but it's a small unit and now its awkward because you made a (mutual) pass at 1/4 the nurses.
An additional but somewhat unrelated element is this - if you have personal presence, competence, and authority you will start running into other kinds of trouble - people will listen to you because you are the boss.
This is a lesson for anyone in manager roles, but when you are in charge and people respect you....your offhand opinions, tastes, and requests become reality.
Say: "I think this pathology is annoying" and it becomes gospel. Get frustrated with a patient and let it out verbally during a meeting? Now a good chunk of people are going to think of and maybe even treat the patient worse.
"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" can be an accident with sufficient poise and authority and those are things we often try and cultivate because they improve care quality.
I knew this was a thing before becoming a boss, but experiencing it in action from the boss side is eye-opening. There is no escaping our primate brains.
Yeah it's frightening. Suddenly people take what you say seriously. How you feel about something is important to people. Offhand suggestions quickly become reality. Sometimes I wonder if it is what being a beautiful woman is like haha.
The more management work I do the more I realize that it is one of the hardest skills, mostly orthogonal to other skills, not something we bother to train...and almost everyone sucks at it.
I am acceptable at management, but it's leadership where I'm adrift (and so much information/training acts like the former is the latter). Part of that is the nature of the job (public defender office)--I've never worked where the office seemed to have anything close to leadership, and it doesn't seem to be unique to places I've worked since the outside appearance of other offices is just as chaotic.
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Going to explore New York (city) for a week or two (starting ~now). Any advice on what to do? Anyone around and want to grab a beer?
Lived there all of my life. Moved away recently.
I assume you're already bombed with the usual touristy advice. My delta is NYC actually sucks at some food but its strengths are: Korean food, Jewish kosher deli food (bagels + fixins) and pizza. Though you might have to sample a few places as there's lots of scrubs trying to cash in on the name recognition. Also the median restaurant actually sucks because they're just "location" plays. It's astonishing how bad a lot of places are but they're still viable just because they are in a lucrative location. You have to worry about this a lot more in NYC, IMO.
Anyway, the usual stuff aside: if you're going to be in Manhattan proper the west side river path, from Battery Park City all of the way to Harlem is pretty much endlessly beautiful for walking or (rental) biking.
NY actually has nearby nice white sand beaches. You can take a ferry to a Jersey beach in no time and have a day of it.
There's also almost always multiple interesting things going on every night of the week, just think it and check a few lists. E.g. there's some amazing comedy nights that often have random celebrity comedians dropping in trying material and they're not even particularly crowded.
Do you like the idea of combining running and drinking in public while singing random dirty ridiculous raunchy songs? Try to find a Hash House Harriers group. H3 is a global phenomenon but there's several of these groups in NYC, should line up well with travel.
Out of curiosity which ones? Unless it's all
Mexican food can be pretty disappointing as a category in NYC. There are of course exceptional places and you can find extremely sophisticated low brow regional Mexican cuisine in Queens but I can't really say "go enjoy Mexican food in NYC".
Indian food is kind of like this too. Indian food should be top of its class in NYC but it surprisingly doesn't compare to the Indian food in London, for example.
Cuisine won't automatically be mind blowing just because it's in NYC, is my caveat.
Mmm fair. You can find good Mexican food in the NE but it sucks except for random places. Pretty much only in Texas/SW/Cali tho.
Indian wise that's an interesting point. Maybe blame Edison?
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I am a local, but going to be out of town for 1.5 weeks from tomorrow, or else I’d have maybe met up.
If you do end up in Williamsburg, taking the ferry is a fun mode of travel if the weather is nice! Can also take it up to Astoria for the Noguchi museum, which has a great gift shop.
It’s a bit of a trek, but I recommend Wonderville if you’re into arcade games. Lots of indie, locally made games, all free to play, and drinks are cheap (but nothing special)
I enjoy Chinatown for a cheap pastry (pineapple buns) and beverage— the TikTok spots are all pretty good.
If you like jazz, Ornithology (small cover) and Lunatico (suggested donation) in Brooklyn are nice places, latter is trendier but smaller.
The Brooklyn Botanic Garden is also gorgeous, though this time of year does not have a ton going on, though lotuses and some other flowers are still in bloom I think. The bonsai collection, tropics/desert houses are always fun too, available year round. Could pair that with a visit to Brooklyn Museum, which is right next door.
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Not a local, not even American but been there multiple times. So tourist POV.
Walk. Seriously, Walk.
It's cliche, but there is a certain buzz or "energy" in Manhattan that I haven't felt anywhere else. Don't use Ubers, if its a 20 minute walk and a 10 minute subway ride, walk. Manhattan is best experienced on the streets.
Others have mentioned that you can try the endless options of food, entertainment, but I suggest don't overfill your schedule with "things to do", leave some room to just walk around and check out things that catch your eye.
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Shoot man, I was just there yesterday, I woulda met up. I had a good time wandering the High Line in Manhattan. If you care about architecture it's basically a site seeing tour for that. There's a great quality yet cheap Japanese place called KENKA on Saint Marks Place. $7 for a bowl of hearty ramen and $7 for a 20oz bottle of beer with good vibes. Otherwise don't forget to check out central park. It really does live up to the hype.
High line is so cool
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$7 for a bowl of ramen in NYC?!? I’ll keep that in mind for the next time I visit.
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I can second KENKA. I believe that's also one of the two spots that Vibecampers/postrats have their meetups.
If you feel like Chinese food instead, there's loads in Chinatown but I like Spicy Village for something casual - David's Bar next door will let you take their food in if you want to have a drink and likely meet some folks (more generally, a good way to meet people in NYC is to pop through a bar that's so small everyone is in close proximity). The infamous Dimes Square is nearby, but there's nothing to actually see at the moment.
Since you've got a lot of time, definitely go see the Cloisters. It's a great neighbourhood, too, and will give you some topological variety and good cardio just walking around.
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-If you haven't been before do some of the touristy stuff. Much of it is overrated but it is still worth doing once (ex: Time Square).
-NYC is arguably the greatest city in the world. With the most selection in the world. This means shopping (for a partner maybe?). You ever wanted incredible Indian food but don't have it in your usual area? What about something more specific like Cambodian? Pull up some lists of stuff and go to town.
-You'll be there for a minute, depending on what your situation is it may be worth doing something like taking Amtrak to Philly for a day trip. If you are coming in from say Toronto or otherwise have limited access to the east coast you'd be surprised at how much you can do nearby. You'll never run out of things in NYC but it can be overwhelming and adding extra stuff can be paradoxically helpful.
-I've never been to an IRL Motte/SSC diaspora meet up but I've always figured you'd have a chance at getting some of the paranoid opsec types with an open invite to some location instead of a direct "lets meet up." Food for thought?
Philly sucks, do not visit.
Bruh the place has some pretty great food, for the history buffs it's one of if not the best choices in the U.S. and for men of culture it's got one of the most exquisite art collections in the world. Not a bad spot. Now Philadelphians......
If you're already in NYC, the food and cultural attractions of Philly are negligible. I guess you could go see independence hall, but is that really worth dealing with the Philadelphians and what they've turned Philadelphia into?
Food-wise that's fair unless you specifically want a Cheesesteak or something like that.
Independence Hall, Liberty Bell and so on are solid.
The Philadelphia Art Museum and The Barnes are both A++++++
I think I heard once that Philly has the second largest collection of impressionist art in the world that's something.
I'm just gonna say it. The liberty bell is basically a tourist trap.
The Barnes is a good museum, but it (even combined with the Philadelphia art museum) pales in comparison to the Met alone (and the Met is just one museum).
I don't disagree but I feel like this is most America history items.
I think we might have different tastes, especially once you had the context...The Barnes is just an exquisite museum.
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Excellent idea. I will be at Gebhard's Beer Culture in the upper west side, this Saturday (8/30) at 5pm. Happy hour runs until 6. I will stay until at least 7. First round's on me.
I don't know NYC well, so if that's a terrible pick, suggestions are welcome.
I'll be in a black tshirt with shrodinger's cat on it.
Related question: are there any rationalist discords/meetups etc in NYC?
The semiannual Astral Codex Ten meetup list has just been posted. It indicates that there are meetups in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Long Island, and Newark.
There are meetups in Erlangen, Freiburg, Mannheim, München, and Stuttgart.
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Just for a laugh: Are there any in southern Germany?
The Munich one is pretty well visited. Theres also a small one in Erlangen. Can DM you the group chat links.
Thanks. Fire away! But there's what's probably a <1% chance of me actually going to any of them. I'm not much of a social animal.
Hah, this is peak introvert energy. Not actually wanting to attend, but wanting the warm feeling of knowing there are groups nearby that you could attend if you wanted to.
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A part of me wants to meet up. Another part of me is scared of meeting my fellow motte racists. Can I mark myself as tentative ?
I recommend spending a Saturday morning & afternoon in Williamsburg. It's a special neighborhood. Up there for hottest people per capita anywhere in the world (I bring the median hotness down). Smorbasborg is great. Domino park is amazing and the Domino sugar building is my favorite new building in America. If you like climbing, then the indoor-outdoor bouldering wall at Vital is fun.
Williamsburg food crawl:
There's best in class vintage stores (artists & fleas and surrounding blocks), wine bars (Sauced, or really any of them), Bath houses (bathhouse is legit, actually). Williamsburg is a 25 yr old white woman's dream. But, it's pretty great for all other demographics too.
Depending on if it was too much or too little, you can go south and spend time with the Hasidics or go east and spend time in Bushwick. It's unconventional people either way.
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Check out Fractal tech.
Is it an open coworking space in addition to the bootcamp? Or what is there to check out here?
Yep open coworking space. Just cool people, a nice vibe, good place to chill.
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The huge container ports on the New Jersey side of the Hudson River are fairly cool. (Read The Box to learn about their history.)
I'm the kind of sicko that wants to see stuff like this when I travel.
When my parents made me go on a trip to Chile in the summer after my freshman year of college, approximately my only enjoyable experience was looking down on the container port of Valparaíso from the hills above it.
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Update to this from 3 weeks ago.
Thank you all for the support and advice.
The situation got worse. After I blocked the extremist content and confronted her about the bitcoin transfers, and took her to the crisis counselor, I discovered this was actually the second scam.
The first one from May-June totaled $55k and involved intimate images. Was a romance / loverboy also with an Elon Musk impersonator.
I also discovered she had maintained contact with both scammers, complaining to them that I had taken her for an evaluation.
Telling one:
At various times in the chat logs she seems almost lucid, but at times paranoid accusing one of the scammers of working with me to destroy her.
She tells the 2nd scammer, the 1st scammer confirmed his identity by
Contact with both scammers continued for several weeks.
She'd complained of floaters in her vision combined with everything else I thought it'd be prudent to have our local hospital have a look at her. After they discharged her, she attempted to obtain a restraining order, against me.
Last week she left for 8 days to a "safe location", she was gone when we returned from Sunday service.
She's returned but won't discuss anything.
I've filed for divorce.
Her brother reviewed her Twitter content and said "I can't believe this is my sister's account... didn't sound like her at all." Multiple people who knew her before have expressed similar shock. I've been documenting everything per attorney's advice.
Children start public school tomorrow. Continuing weekly meetings with pastor. I've seen my own therapist once and have weekly appointments. Men's bible study group has been incredibly supportive now that I've opened up to them. Kids are doing okay, all things considered. We're maintaining routines. I'm working fully remote now to be present for them.
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.
That’s fucked up.
If it helps at all…I think you’re doing the right things.
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I'll pray for you my friend, I'm sorry this has happened.
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First things first: "Secure the scene first," "at a cardiac arrest, the first procedure is to take your own pulse," "self-care bro."
However you frame it - this is going to be tough make sure you are getting support. Likely you did not do anything wrong. Try not to blame yourself. Try not to blame yourself for blaming yourself.
Caveats: I deliberately only skimmed so everything is general and pretend it's general if I didn't do a good job making it general (I am not your or her doctor and am not asking the questions required to provide specific or informed advice.
Second: These things are more common than you think and go in all kinds of directions. Be aware that catastrophic decline is on the table, but so is total remission and so is things like backbreaking medical causes. Try not to get locked into a particular hope or despair without more understanding, information, and crucially - time.
Third: You are going to get a lot of shitty medical and psychiatric advice. Your therapist may accidentally be right but already this doesn't seem like a true delusion (insufficiently fixed?) is inconsistent with borderline personality persistence and doesn't really exhibit evidence for bipolar. Could be prodrome however. Don't worry what any of that means that isn't your job. Could be you don't have the language to relay the behavior you are seeing (that's not your fault! You aren't a trained healthcare professional). Most of the geographic area of the country has poor access to psychiatric care (NPs/PAs have some uses in medicine but never in psychiatric care, I've never met a psychiatrist who was willing to privately say something good about an NP except those who were getting a significant financial benefit. With unusual patients they are significantly worse than useless), and while it's out there it is hard to find a FM/IM/ED doc who is sharp on psychiatry which is important because-
Four: In order to meet the criteria for a DSM diagnosis the symptoms have to not be better explained by a medical condition or substance use. Usually the work up for this is inadequate in most settings. The ED will usually get a head scan if the patient has a first episode of psychosis in atypical age range, but they don't always.... Other basic lab work like an RPR usually needs to be done, but they might not have done it. Someone who knows what autoimmune encephalitis is needs to think about it for three seconds. Realistically it isn't any of the rare stuff, but those things do happen. For drugs a UDS is grossly inadequate if she's doing anything weird, which she may be. Patient's get access to a benzo with the wrong metabolite, use some local herb, or buy some weird designer drug. Shit happens and in the case of something like caffeine nobody may ask the right question when it totally explains the psychosis.
With someone who is uncooperative it will be hard, but taking her to a competent PCP under the basis of "hey I'm worried about you its not your fault lets see if anything medical is happening" can sometimes gain traction.
This is difficult however because people who aren't truly mentally ill don't think they have anything wrong with them and are correct and people who are truly mentally ill often have refusal to acknowledge that they are as a symptom.
Medical/substance/environmental/lifestyle causes of psychosis and/or mood disturbance are not as common as simple causes but they aren't rare. If you wish get access to the medical records and google things and make sure the right crap has been done.
Five: Some facts about potentially relevant DSM conditions. -Women get schizophrenia later than men, especially a bump is seen around menopause. -The DSM has a diagnosis of "Brief Psychotic Disorder." Some people have true psychotic symptoms that remit spontaneously (and never come back). -Adequate care can get someone back to normal. It can also get someone normal enough. -The DSM has a diagnosis of "Delusional Disorder" which means someone is otherwise normal but has delusions about a specific thing. -If someone has schizophrenia you will see some combination of other things in addition to delusions. People act weird. Usually the family can pick up on this (but not always). Same is true for other conditions. Take stock of what you noted. Point it out to medical professionals. -Depression can manifest with psychotic features or other significantly concerning behaviors.
Six: Not every behavioral problem is a DSM disorder (they have a cheat option for "unspecified" or whatever but that's not really the same).
This moves out of medicine to the reality of people doing weird shit and having weird beliefs. I think social justice people are crazy! But they aren't DSM relevant. Some problematic behaviors respond well to therapy some don't but you will find people in the population who have something like midlife satisfaction issues, political freak outs and so on.
You can peck around the edges but if this is the case the medical and legal systems (including medication) will be of limited assistance.
This leaves some room for "maybe two years from now she'll be like....that was dumb" but the lack of options isn't really comforting right now.
You should be prepared for the possibility of this being a true medical/psychiatric issue and also for the possibility of it being a "she's changed." Both will be tough to deal with but in different ways.
I'm sorry.
I know what you mean.
Many of the possible organic causes are horrible.
The Elon Musk delusion has persisted since April / May.
Since July, she sometimes seems afraid of me. Has claimed at least at twice thqt I'm abusive but was unable to articulate any actual abuse.
I think I've already used all the let's go get you checked out attempts I'm going to get.
Many of them aren't though! And some if treated may remit.
With respect to timing .....not really brief, but things can get better spontaneously shockingly far out. The human brain gonna do what it do.
The increasing paranoia is concerning but not as unilaterally bad as you might expect, while getting worse is obviously not a good outcome, it can sometimes lead to treatment that makes things better in the long run!
Try and recruit as much support as you can. :/
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I am terribly sorry for what has happened to you and your family, and I wish you all the best as the situation develops.
I wonder if you would find it helpful to read VALIS by Philip K Dick, the famous science fiction author, who began experiencing mystical/schizophrenic delusions in his later life.
The book is a very thinly veiled exploration of Dick’s own mental state, and his constant struggle to reconcile his rational understanding that he is deluded with his schizophrenic certainty that all of it is true.
I haven’t read it for a long time but you might find it illuminating or humanising.
Thanks for the recommendation.
My library says I should have the ebook in ~2 weeks.
Library Genesis?
My local library uses Libby, it's in the CW MARS system.
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You’re welcome. I hope it’s of some use. Keep buggering on, as Churchill used to say.
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This sounds like a textbook case of schizophrenia, no? How old is she?
47
My therapist said schizophrenia, or BPD / bi-polar. She asked for the emails and chat logs I have. I'll see her again this week and give her the logs and emails.
I'd almost guess some sort of early onset dementia?
I've been reading some of the literature.
It seems late onset schizophrenia is more prevalent in women and there may be a hormonal connection as there is with many things in women.
I'm trying not to obsess, but I've been a bit hypervigilant for the past couple weeks.
I don't know man, that seems like it's just about the right amount of vigilant.
It's really heartening to hear how much you're doing to look after your kids. Take care of yourself.
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My condolences. I can scarcely imagine the waking horror you now inhabit. Do you have any outlets to keep your spirits high?
High spirits are in short supply.
Our church has been very supportive.
Our oldest made a local swim team, his siblings are going to swim at the same location as part of their club program. It'll keep them and me busy several nights a week.
I'm open to suggestions.
I mean, personally I've always enjoyed some online game nights with old friends in far flung parts. For a time we were pretty good about playing older games we all grew up with. Dooms, Quakes, StarCraft, etc. It can be very comforting to slip into adolescent activities with old friends.
If old friends are in short supply, I'm always down for some random internet fun.
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I cannot even imagine. I'm very sorry to read all this.
I deal with plenty of delusional people, but drugs play a large role in their lives. It's beyond baffling when it strikes people who are otherwise functional and healthy (presumably the hospital found no organic cause for such behavior and the floaters like a brain tumor or something).
They didn't discover anything to my knowledge.
Some occasional cannabis use but nothing that I think would account for this.
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Oh man, that’s rough.
It’s surprisingly common. One woman(50s) I know thinks she has been in a serious relationship with a scammer for years. A man she’s never met, who always has an accident at the airport, requiring she send money. She has broken off relations with anyone who tried to bring up the fact that her love affair is a scam.
I don’t know what one should do in such cases. Protect yourself and your children first.
Any idea what might have brought this on? Covid, Chatgpt ?
She did become very antivax through Covid, calls it the clot shot, etc.
I didn't get the vaccine either, but don't really subscribe to the larger conspiracy theories surrounding the vaccine.
When I had access to her device I briefly checked AI usage. Nothing that appeared problematic.
Some of the emails and longer chat messages from the scammers sound like AI to me.
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What's her twitter username
It's lots of white-wellbeing and nowhiteguilt.org and similar adjacent content. Culture war material, westernkind, western bio-spirit, etc.
Seems a bit like an online cult to me.
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