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Notes -
Contra deBoer on transgender issues
I don't think you're merely asking us to be "kind"
I’ve long been a great fan of Freddie deBoer. He’s a consistently thought-provoking and engaging writer, courageous in his willingness to step on toes and slaughter sacred cows, worth reading even when I (often) disagree with him.
One of many areas on which I disagree with Freddie is in our respective stances on trans issues. Some years back, he posted that he was sick of people in the comments of his articles bringing up trans issues even though the article itself had nothing to do with the topic, and announced a blanket ban on this specific behaviour.1 He subsequently posted about the subject in more detail, explaining why (in contrast to his more iconoclastic opinions on progressive issues like racism, policing and mental health) he supports the standard “trans-inclusive” paradigm more or less uncritically. In March of last year, he posted an article titled “And Now I Will Again Ponderously Explain Why I Am Trans-Affirming”.
To be frank, I found the article staggeringly shoddy and poorly argued, especially for such a typically perceptive writer: it was a profound shame to see him fall victim to exactly the same errors in reasoning and appeals to emotion he so loudly decries when progressives use them in other political contexts. I intended to write a response to that article but never got around to it, and then the moment had passed. Last week he published not one but two new articles on the topic, so now I have a second chance to strike while the iron is hot. In some cases I will respond to Freddie’s arguments directly; in other cases I think it will be illuminating to contrast what Freddie wrote on this topic with what he has written on other controversial political issues in the past, to illustrate how flagrantly he is failing to live up to his own standards and committing precisely the same infractions he has complained about at length in other contexts.
“No one is saying” and what a strawman is
Freddie repeatedly asserts that various complaints that gender-critical people might have about trans activists are completely unfounded and invented from whole cloth, that no trans activists are saying what gender-critical people accuse them of having said, and that if any trans activists are saying these things then they’re only a small radical fringe and they don’t matter.
In 2021, Freddie wrote an article titled "NO ONE SAYS" & What a Strawman Is", describing a rhetorical trick in which a person opposing him on some political issue will insist that “NO ONE SAYS” a thing Freddie disagrees with, Freddie will cite examples of people saying that exact thing - but rather than concede the point, the person will simply move the goalposts:
Freddie might claim that no one is trying to obliterate the distinction between men and women; no less than a once-august publication like Scientific American argues that sex is a “spectrum” and that the idea of there being “only” two sexes is “simplistic”. Freddie might claim that no one in his experience has ever scolded him for saying “birthing person”, but that is the official language advocated for by the UK’s National Health Service. Freddie might insist that no one wants you to stop calling your kids boys or girls, but here’s a fawning article in the New York Times about parents doing exactly that, and another from the BBC.
Note also Freddie’s claim that linguistic prescriptions like “birthing person” and “chestfeeder” are largely confined to “the parts of our culture that have aggressive HR departments”. This might come as a surprise to Freddie, but some of us actually have to work in companies with aggressive HR departments - we aren’t all lucky enough to be self-employed freelancers pulling down six figures a year, beholden to no one but ourselves. It’s very strange for a self-identified Marxist who expresses such profound outrage about the capitalist exploitation of the proletariat to be so blasé about the obnoxious ideological hoops that ordinary working people are made to jump through as a condition of continued employment in a precarious economy.
For emphasis: Freddie, someone is in fact saying! And in many cases these “someones” are far more powerful and have far more influence on our culture than you or anyone in your circle of like-minded Brooklyn activists. When the fifth-largest employer in the entire world is demanding that its staff exclusively use “birthing person” in place of “mother”, what some Brooklyn activist believes is beside the point.
Female sporting events
I also find it hard to square Freddie’s claim that “no one” is trying to obliterate the distinction between male and female altogether with his apparent belief that trans women competing in female sporting events is entirely fair and legitimate. How can such a policy possibly be justified without ignoring the indisputable biological reality, consistent across time and space, that the average male person is stronger, faster and more resilient than 99% of female people? No less of a once-respectable institution than the American Civil Liberties Union describes the claim that “Trans athletes’ physiological characteristics provide an unfair advantage over cis athletes” as a “myth”. When a respected organisation like the ACLU, with an annual budget exceeding $300 million, asserts that male people are collectively no stronger than female people - the only way I can describe the claim that “no one” is trying to obliterate the distinction between male and female people is that it is a shameless insult to the reader’s intelligence.
Scepticism for me, but not for thee
A recurrent problem throughout the article is Freddie assuming that any criticism of trans-inclusive policies is a criticism of trans people themselves. No matter how many times a gender-critical person might assert “I’m not worried about trans people using this policy to hurt people - I’m worried about bad actors who are not themselves trans or suffering from gender dysphoria taking advantage of this policy to hurt people”, Freddie continually insists that criticising policies intended to be trans-inclusive is functionally the same as criticising trans people as a group. This is precisely the same kind of facile reasoning he’s so elegantly skewered in other political domains - the notion that opposition to this or that policy necessarily implies hatred of black people, or the mentally ill, or what have you. But he’s guilty of it himself, admitting elsewhere in the article that certain trans-inclusive policies pursued by the radical fringe of the trans activist lobby are short-sighted and counterproductive. So we find ourselves in the curious position in which Freddie can criticise this trans-inclusive policy without that bringing his support for trans rights into question - but if gender-critical people are sceptical or uneasy about that trans-inclusive policy, the only reasonable explanation is that they’re crypto-conservative fundamentalist Christians motivated solely by disgust and hatred of trans people.
For example, Freddie admits to scepticism about outré neogenders (“I suspect a lot of those people will probably adopt a more conventional gender identity as they age”), that a lot of the linguistic prescriptions trans activists make are preposterous and counterproductive (“I think making people believe that you want to get rid of the term “mother” is about as politically wise as punching a baby on camera”), that it’s wrong to act like medically transitioning will solve all of a trans person’s problems (“And I worry, for young trans people, that they’ll find transitioning to be just another of these human disappointments - things will be better, no doubt, but as we all tend to do they’ll have idealized the next stage of their lives and then may experience that sudden comedown when they realize that they’re still just humans with human problems”) and even that some medical practitioners are being overly aggressive about pushing minors to transition (“Can I see understand [sic] some concerns with overly-aggressive medical providers pushing care on trans-identifying minors too quickly? I guess so.”) These topics, apparently, reside within the Overton window: one is entitled to raise concerns about them without being accused of being motivated by malicious hatred of trans people as a group. Why are these concerns legitimate to express, and not: the unintended consequences of abolishing single-sex bathrooms and changing rooms; male rapists with intact genitalia being incarcerated in female prisons; convicted sex offenders coming out as trans and changing their names in order to evade child safeguarding policies - or any other of the litany of reasonable-sounding objections gender-critical people have raised over the last decade or so? No idea.
The bathroom question
A large chunk of both articles is dedicated to the question of whether it is appropriate to allow trans women to use women’s bathrooms:
I personally am not a diehard advocate for sex-segregated bathrooms, and can see the merit in making all bathrooms gender-neutral. Of all the components of trans activism going, gender-neutral bathrooms is perhaps the one I find least objectionable. That being said, I find the argument for sex-segregated bathrooms easy to understand (even if I don’t necessarily share it), and admit to being surprised that Freddie doesn’t get it, so I will try to aid him in understanding it.
A blanket policy of sex-segregated bathrooms is intended to minimise the risk of female people being raped or sexually assaulted by male people in bathrooms. While a policy of sex-segregated bathrooms is enforced, a person who sees an obviously male person enter a women’s public bathroom could reasonably assume that that person was up to no good, and take appropriate steps to rectify the situation (such as notifying a security guard). Under a trans-inclusive bathroom policy, one is no longer supposed to assume that a male person entering a women’s bathroom is up to no good, because they might identify as a trans woman.
While Freddie is correct that, under a policy of sex-segregated bathrooms, there is nothing stopping a male rapist from simply walking into a women’s bathroom, a trans-inclusive bathroom policy makes it dramatically easier for such people to get away with committing an opportunistic rape, as bystanders will be less likely to intervene if they see a male person entering a women’s bathroom for fear of being accused of being transphobic. The reasoning is similar to regulations in which adults are not permitted to enter public playgrounds unless they are the parent or guardian of a child: obviously a child molester can simply ignore the regulation, but the regulation is designed to make bad actors more obvious to bystanders.
If a woman is in a public bathroom and an obviously male person walks in, there is no reliable way for her to tell if that person is a harmless trans woman just minding her own business, or a rapist exploiting well-meaning inclusive policies for malicious ends. The fact that the person has a penis is not dispositive in one direction or the other (as Freddie acknowledges not all trans people may wish to medically transition); nor that they are bearded and wearing jeans and a T-shirt (because “trans women don’t owe you femininity”, and a trans woman presenting as male does not in any way undermine her trans identity).
[image in original post]
For the reasons outlined above, there is no way to reliably distinguish between trans women and cis men on sight2. Hence, there is functionally no difference between “bathrooms intended for women and trans women” and “gender-neutral bathrooms”. Like Freddie, I am not aware of any hard evidence that making bathrooms gender-neutral in a particular area resulted in an increase in the rate of rape or sexual assault. I understand the gender-critical opposition to gender-neutral bathrooms without necessarily sharing or endorsing it. Even if the concerns about how this policy might be exploited by bad actors are in fact unfounded, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse everyone expressing those concerns of being transphobic. I think it’s especially unfair to accuse a gender-critical person of saying they think all trans women are rapists when, in my experience, gender-critical people go to great lengths to emphasise that they are concerned about bad actors who aren’t trans taking advantage of these policies for malicious ends, rather than trans women doing so.
Overstating the importance of the issue
In his second article from last week, Freddie complains that gender-critical people have vastly overstated the significance of the trans issue, elevating it to the status of “the most important social divide of our time, apparently beating out crime and education and the collapse of the family etc” when trans/NB people make up at most 2-3% of the American population. I agree that, in the scheme of things, trans issues receive a vastly disproportionate share of column inches relative to their import. Where I differ from Freddie is placing the blame for this state of affairs solely at the feet of gender-critical people.
As noted by Wesley Yang, there are 39 separate days3 in the American political calendar specifically dedicated to celebrating trans people (and an additional 77 days dedicated to celebrating trans people as a subset of LGBTQ+) - in contrast to Black History Month, which famously falls on the shortest month in the Gregorian calendar, despite black Americans making up 13-14% of the US population. President Joe Biden gave a statement on Transgender Day of Remembrance, while Democratic candidate Elizabeth Warren made the frankly bizarre campaign promise that her pick for education secretary would have to be personally vetted by a transgender child. There has hardly been a single political issue in the last ten years that hasn’t been framed as “how might this affect trans people?” or “what does this mean for the struggle for trans rights?” in the popular media, no matter how tangential the connection - everything from Black Lives Matter to the war in the Ukraine to gun violence in schools to the cost-of-living crisis to Covid to AI to the Israel-Palestine conflict to Brexit and even climate change (“[exposure to secondhand smoke] can exacerbate the respiratory stress that LGBTQI+ populations may experience from air pollution and chest binding, which is a common practice among transgender men to achieve a flat chest”)
It’s a bit rich to demand that Americans spend more than one-tenth of the calendar year celebrating trans people, “centring their voices” and putting their trials and tribulations at the forefront of their consciousness - only to then turn around and say “umm why do you even care about this, it’s such a tiny issue lol” when some of them offer even the mildest pushback. You brought it up.
[image in original post]
Medical transition of minors
Social contagion via social media
On the controversy over underage trans people discovering a transgender identity and/or undergoing medical transition, Freddie writes:
It’s fascinating contrasting the passage above with an article Freddie published in 2022 about the recent phenomenon of social media-addicted teenagers suddenly “discovering” that they suffer from dissociative identity disorder (“DID” for short, popularly known as “multiple personality disorder”), an exceptionally rare condition in which a person has multiple distinct personalities (called “alters”). Freddie unequivocally asserted that most or all of these teenagers are either mistaken (honestly confusing the symptoms of some relatively banal personality trait or mental illness for an exotic psychosis) or actively lying; that this is bad for the teenagers themselves; and that the adults who ought to know better but indulge these teenagers anyway should be ashamed of themselves. He even went so far as to argue that dissociative identity disorder may not even exist, citing as evidence (among other things) that certain people only “discovered” they had it after being charged with a crime. How this observation ties into the transgender debate is left as an exercise to the reader (but here are a few hints).
I really cannot fathom how Freddie can reconcile his position in the DID article with his position on trans teenagers: the cognitive dissonance is simply astounding. Freddie insists that gender-critical people need not be concerned about teenagers receiving hormones or surgical interventions, as the rates at which these are occurring are “low” and “vanishingly rare” respectively - but I would be very surprised if the number of teenagers claiming to suffer from DID (even if they aren’t receiving any medical treatment for same) is greater than the number coming out as trans, which does not in any way alter Freddie’s opinion that the former is a concerning trend. He talks about “a notoriously controversial and historically extremely rare disorder… suddenly bloom[ing] into epidemic proportions among teenagers with smartphones and a burning need to differentiate themselves” and does not accept for a moment the explanation that “expanding public consciousness about such illnesses reduces stigma and empowers more people to get diagnosed with conditions they already had” - but simply refuses to connect the dots with the other thing that awkward teenagers with smartphones and burning need to differentiate themselves started “discovering” about themselves en masse all over the Western world about ten years ago (which resulted in an over 5,000% increase in referrals among female minors to the UK’s centre for transgender children - in the space of less than ten years). And the standard explanation offered for why so many female teenagers are coming out as trans is word-for-word the same as the standard explanation for why so many teenagers are claiming to suffer from DID!
Imagine, if you will, two female teenagers:
Alice is a socially awkward thirteen-year-old with some autistic tendencies. Having trouble fitting in at school, she retreats into social media, becoming immersed in communities of like-minded individuals on Tumblr and TikTok. Six months later, she announces to her parents that she has dissociative identity disorder and multiple “alters” (having given no indication that she experienced like this at any point prior), and demands to be brought to a therapist, and perhaps later to a psychiatrist who will prescribe her powerful antipsychotic medication which comes with a host of side effects.
Barbara is a socially awkward thirteen-year-old with some autistic tendencies. Having trouble fitting in at school, she retreats into social media, becoming immersed in communities of like-minded individuals on Tumblr and TikTok. Six months later, she announces to her parents that she is a trans boy called Brandon (having given no indication that she was dissatisfied with her gender identity at any point prior), and demands to be brought to a physician who specialises in gender issues who will prescribe her hormones (which come with a host of side effects) and recommend that she undergo top and/or bottom surgery.
Freddie looks at Alice and says: this is concerning, and Alice will suffer as a result - I don’t care that I’m not Alice’s parent or healthcare provider, I still think it’s concerning and I’m entitled to say so. Freddie looks at Barbara/Brandon and says: nothing to see here - it’s a private matter for Brandon, Brandon’s parents and Brandon’s healthcare providers, “I don’t understand why this element of medical science has become everyone’s business to a degree that is simply not true in other fields”, and if you think this is concerning then you’re a bigot. No matter how much a gender-critical person might insist that they are motivated by concern for Barbara/Brandon’s welfare which is just as authentic as Freddie’s for Alice - no, they’re really just a closeted conservative Christian consumed with hatred and disgust for trans people. I truly do not understand why Freddie is entitled to his opinion on Alice (despite not knowing her personally), but no gender-critical person is entitled to their opinion on Barbara/Brandon.
Let’s take it a step further:
What reasonable person would look at the scenario described above and not immediately conclude “Alice has erroneously come to believe both that she is trans and suffers from DID because of her social media consumption”? But Freddie would have us believe that the two phenomena are entirely unrelated. The fact that Alice discovered that she was transgender and had DID at exactly the same time, that she did so immediately after spending far too much time in online communities in which both DID and being trans are glamorised - this is all just a big coincidence. Freddie absolutely reserves the right to say that Alice will suffer as a result of her erroneous belief that she has DID, but anyone (outside of Alice’s parents and healthcare providers) who does the same of her belief that she is a trans boy has outed themselves as a cruel, malicious bigot.
Some of the passages from Freddie’s DID article are almost painfully on-the-nose:
Incidentally, the scenario described above (in which Alice comes to believe that she is both trans and has DID) is not an armchair hypothetical. I took a quick scan of the #dissociativeidentitydisorder tag on TikTok and noticed that many of the individuals posting content under that tag describe themselves as transgender in addition to claiming to have multiple alters. Transgender patients who also claim to suffer from DID is apparently a sufficiently common scenario that it was discussed at the World Professional Association for Transgender Health in September 2022. What to do in the event that there is disagreement among the “alters” about whether or not to undergo medical transition? WPATH’s elegant solution: use a smartphone app to allow the alters to vote in turn and come to a collective decision.
Self-regulation of medical bodies
Stories like the above are precisely why so many gender-critical people don’t share Freddie’s optimism in the ability or willingness of the “medical community to change their standard of care as new data comes available”. By asserting that “I am certain… that I don’t want the government getting involved in these medical decisions. Ron Desantis does not get a say, sorry”, Freddie is committing himself to a position in which the medical bodies governing transition for minors will always be able to effectively self-regulate and will never require outside interference from governmental bodies.
That’s a remarkably high level of confidence to have in any medical body governing any kind of medical treatment. Of course we would all love to live in a world in which medical bodies can self-regulate and no outside interference is necessary, but - well, medical scandals happen, and sometimes the government getting involved is an act of last resort after self-regulation fails. I’m not saying that the bodies governing healthcare for trans minors are any worse at self-regulation and course-correction than the average medical body (whether in oncology or orthopaedics or whatever); but I’m definitely saying I don’t think I have any good reason to believe that these medical bodies are better than average, and certainly not so much better that Freddie’s unshakeable confidence in them can be rationally justified.
To use an example of how medical bodies’ self-regulation can and does fail, the Irish surgeon Michael Neary conducted unnecessary hysterectomies and other surgical procedures on over a hundred women over a thirty-year period. Several nurses blew the whistle at various points in his career, to no avail; an internal investigation conducted by three consultants found no evidence of wrongdoing and recommended that Neary continue working in the Lourdes Hospital. It was only after a judicial inquiry brought by the ministry for health and children (i.e. the government) that Neary was finally struck off the register, five years after the internal investigation found he’d done nothing wrong. If the government hadn’t gotten involved (as a measure of last resort, the ability of the medical bodies in question having demonstrably failed to self-regulate and course-correct), it’s entirely possible that Neary would have ruined dozens of additional women’s lives before retiring on a tidy pension. Or consider the more recent example of Lucy Letby, a serial killer working as a nurse who murdered at least 7 newborn babies: the NHS Foundation Trust attempted to handle the matter internally (even forcing doctors who’d raised the alarm about Letby to personally apologise to her) and were extremely resistant to involving the police. It was only after alerting the police (i.e. the government) - nearly two full years after members of staff had raised the alarm following Letby’s first confirmed victim - that Letby was finally removed from her position and later arrested, charged and convicted.
To clarify: I’m not saying that governmental intervention into transition for minors is currently necessary. However, the suggestion that we can confidently assert that no such intervention will ever be necessary is preposterous. I don’t think we have any good reason to believe that the medical bodies governing medical transition for minors are invulnerable to the kinds of social dynamics and institutional failures that have afflicted every other kind of medical body,4 and doctors as a profession (as the examples above illustrate) are notorious for closing ranks and circling the wagons at the first whiff of a potential scandal. To simply declare by fiat “the medical bodies governing transition for minors will always be able to self-regulate and course-correct, governmental oversight or intervention is not necessary and never will be” is shockingly naïve. He touched on a similar point in his article from March of last year:
All true. The difference being that, in my experience, whistleblowers who call attention to substandard practices at dialysis centres, radiology labs and pharmacies are not generally accused of lying, being right-wing agitators or being bigoted against marginalised members of society - all accusations hurled at Jamie Reed, even well after her claims of misconduct were largely substantiated by no less than the New York Times.
This unqualified confidence in a class of medical practitioners is all the more baffling coming from Freddie, considering he himself found it entirely credible when one of his readers described how her therapist used their sessions as an opportunity to hector and guilt-trip her about her white female privilege in the style of racial grievance politics popularised by Robin diAngelo and Ibram X. Kendi. If therapists are vulnerable to allowing their faddish political opinions override their duty of care to their patients, why not endocrinologists, surgeons and so on?
But I suppose the mere suggestion that endocrinologists who work with trans teenagers are just as fallible and prone to ordinary human error as anyone else makes me a cruel, malicious bigot who hates trans people.
Parental input into their children’s transition is more controversial than Freddie seems to think
As an aside, do you know who besides gender-critical people is a cruel, malicious bigot? If we were to be even a little bit consistent about this, Freddie himself. I’m not the first person to note that perfectly reasonable and level-headed individuals with impeccable progressive bona fides (such as Jesse Singal) have been smeared as bigots by no less an insitution than GLAAD simply for arguing, as Freddie does, that the parents of trans children should have some input into what medical treatments their children do or don’t undergo. The official stance of many pro-trans organisations is that “trans kids know who they are” and that any attempts to gatekeep their access to “gender-affirming care” (including by their parents) is denying them lifesaving medical treatment, no different from denying insulin to a diabetic.
If you think I’m exaggerating, consider this bill in the state of California which would make a parent’s decision to “affirm” their child’s gender identity (or not) a factor in custody disputes (at the time of writing, it has passed both houses but not yet been signed into law). In the eyes of the state of California, all other things being equal, a parent who expresses misgivings about their child’s desire to medically transition is a strictly worse parent than a parent who uncritically and enthusiastically endorses that child’s desire. See also the publicly-funded British charity Mermaids, who were caught sending a chest binder to a journalist posing a 14-year-old teenager, even after being explicitly told that the girl’s mother had forbidden her from wearing one.
Obviously, Freddie, you would be very insulted if you were to be smeared as a bigot for expressing the “standard, not-particularly-interesting progressive” opinion that parents should have some say in what medical treatments their children undergo. Please recognise that this “not-particularly interesting” opinion of yours is in fact very controversial in the trans activist space. Please try to understand how gender-critical people feel when you smear them as bigots for expressing what seem to them “standard, not-particularly interesting progressive” opinions, such as “it’s bad when sex offenders falsely claim to be trans women so as to serve their sentences in women’s prisons”.
Detransition
In his article from March, Freddie had this to say about detransitioners:
For the record, the existence of detransitioners does not undermine my respect for trans people. I have trans friends who I respect. If they decided that they wanted to revert to being cis, I would support them in that decision absolutely. The existence of people who transition and then come to regret their decision does not challenge my belief that adults are entitled to transition in the first place, any more than (to use a banal example) the existence of people who undergo tattoo removal challenges my belief that adults can get tattoos if they want to.
The detransition phenomenon is important to highlight in the interests of informed consent. If an adult is considering undergoing an elective medical procedure (or series of medical procedures), their healthcare practitioner should proactively make them informed about the statistical outcomes of that medical procedure, which includes the proportion of people who undergo that procedure and later come to regret it. This goes double for surgical procedures which have a high risk of complications. It goes double-double for highly invasive procedures which will irreversibly change large parts of a person’s body and permanently sterilise them. And it goes double-double-double when you’re proposing to do the above on minors.
If our collective attitude towards medical transition was sensible and depoliticised, the paragraph above would be a complete no-brainer. Instead we find ourselves in a culture in which medical transition is routinely presented as a silver bullet which will erase a trans person’s problems in one fell swoop; in which even the expected downsides of successful transition are downplayed and minimised by healthcare practitioners; and in which distressed parents are browbeaten with emotionally manipulative slogans like “Would you rather have a live daughter or a dead son?” In this environment, it’s perfectly reasonable to push back on the soft-pedalling of medical transition by pointing out that a significant proportion of those who transition later regret their decision, and that prospective transitioners ought to take that fact (among others) into account when making their decision.
If anything, the term “detransition” downplays the severity of the situation. A “detransitioner” has not simply pressed Ctrl-Z and reverted their body to factory settings - the changes they have made to their body are generally irreversible and will completely change the course of their life. Michael Neary’s victims were furious upon realising that they were denied the ability to have further children for no good reason at all - the idea that medical professionals would downplay the magnitude of the decision to transition is unconscionable.
The “Fox News Fallacy”
In his article about multiple personality disorder, Freddie described what he called the “Fox News Fallacy”. I will quote from it at length:
And what does Freddie have to say about gender-critical people who are (among other things) concerned about trans teenagers for many of the same reasons that Freddie is concerned about teenagers claiming to have DID? Well, he
One might think the breadth of criticisms directed towards trans activism and the range of people expressing them might give Freddie pause - surely not all of these people are just bigoted lapsed Christians motivated by animalistic revulsion of trans people? But no - no matter how many people express reservations about this or that component of transgender activism; no matter how measured, restrained and thoroughly researched their criticisms might be; no matter what point on the political spectrum they may reside on (including no less than the Communist Party of Great Britain, who in another world Freddie might consider fellow travellers); even if they are atheist materialists who object to gender ideology specifically because they consider its quasi-mystical dualistic character something of a cultural regression - everyone who is even a little bit more sceptical on the trans issue than Freddie must in fact be a closeted Christian who thinks that trans people are “wicked” and “against God’s plan”. There’s no other possible explanation that merits serious consideration, apparently.
__
1 For the record, I don’t blame him for finding this behaviour tiresome, I think the people melodramatically accusing him of hypocrisy for “censoring” them should chill out, and as it’s his Substack, the moderation decisions he enforces on it are entirely his prerogative. To anyone who says that my only beef with Freddie is that he won’t let me talk about this stuff in the comments of his articles about something unrelated, I would like here to reiterate: I have never complained about him forbidding people from bringing up trans issues in the comments of his articles, and completely respect his decision to ban people from doing so.
2 To better disambiguate between genuine trans women and cis bad actors was the root of my proposal to make incarcerating trans women in women’s prisons conditional on their being first assessed by a psychiatrist experienced in gender issues. Freddie doesn’t even touch on the prison issue at all, I suspect because he recognises a losing battle when he sees one.
3 Not including the unofficial “Trans Day of Vengeance”, which coincides with April Fool’s Day.
4 To bring it back to another of Freddie’s older posts: medical bodies are institutions, which means they are exactly as subject to the Iron Law of Institutions as any other institution.
I don't think you are going far enough with the bathroom argument. If cis-men are dangerous to women, so are trans-women because both are male. Malicious actors don't need to factor into it. If we disallow cis-men from entering women's bathrooms, so should we disallow trans-women. Otherwise, it's discriminatory against cis-men.
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I think the attitude of 'everything is idpol except for this one particular issue which I've pulled out of the Dirty Bourgie Left and is sacred above all others' is the most annoying part. If he was a doctrinaire orthodox Marxist-Leninist who scorned it as false consciousness it would be still annoying but it would be logically consistent.
But instead he twists himself into a loop trying to justify it. Has anyone asked him, given the choice between transgender rights and utopic Communism, which would he choose? I think he'd twist in the wind in pure agony.
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Great post, much appreciate your summary which I wholeheartedly agree with. The funny thing is I originally found the Motte when I was infuriated with Freddie for one of those earlier posts, whereby I googled if anyone had commented on the web, and actually found a place I could rant where I wasn't immediately kicked off. And here we are today, with the same games being played!
I hold no particular animus or deep feelings against Freddie, but he is a fraud in my view. It's obviously fine to have whatever blog policy you want, but to block people from talking about an issue and then proceed to talk about it 'alot' is insulting to his subscribers and just plain tyrannical.
The only saving grace he might have with it is cognitive dissonance - the post you dug up in DID speaks to this as well ( I didn't know about that one) - he all but lays out the case that trans is a culture bound syndrome and now because of his tribal and familial roots is realising he can't square what he knows to be true with the orthodoxy he's supposed to subscribe to. Reading his latest made me feel like I was watching someone wet themselves in public, so poor and fumbling was the argumentation in places.
I get annoyed with the fragmentation technique which actually hides what is going on. First posit the 'trans person' and then smear categories and argue on a rights basis. In between anything will do-sand in the face. It's just like heads of a hydra - I mean, can you count all the spurious stuff that is been brought up around this shit: endless queerying of biological sex, made up ideas of third genders or historic trans people, adolescent identity badges and flags, the extreme sensitivity to... third person pronouns, gender identity theory justification, rights issues and medical treatment model at the same time, social constructivism, gender performance, gender souls/essences, etc. If you collate what people have said to justify trans you will understand that is an 'empty' term. The arguments shift over time, and different individuals use conflicting and incoherent explanations to argue for it.
But it's pretty simple what is going on. A new group of people has been created in society and activists are having the rights of this group supercede those of others, by making a nonsense category, gender identity, supercede biological sex. Activists, progressive zealots, money makers, politician, handmaid women, and a lot of (mainly male) weirdos have been setting this up behind our backs but some people have realised what is going on and have something to say about it.
It's still finely poised but I predict the trans lobby will start to lose ground. This is because there is no coherence, no meaning to be found in trans. On the other hand, if you gain a perspective, you can actually understand, and even admire, the emergent systems at play. If enough people in society value reality we will have to act in concert to defend it. Otherwise, what lies ahead after abandoning reality?
Also, if you enjoyed the post, please consider subscribing to my Substack: https://firsttoilthenthegrave.substack.com/
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Two posts in the topic in one week is a lot, but in fairness to him I think the last time he brought it up was like ten months ago. I take your point though, he's getting awfully trigger-happy with the "no comments" button.
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Excellent write-up, I agree with much of it nearly exactly. Including liking but being perplexed by deBoer. It's like one of those What english sounds like to non-english speakers videos. The underlying tone and analytical thought is there but he somehow manages to sprinkle in some moral mutant level different values in so he ends up veering all over to places I wouldn't have gone.
I generally like Freddie, even where I disagree with him. He has enough time at the coalface of education to know that the platitudes about blank slates and that all that is keeping some kids down is just plain old racism, for instance, are rubbish: some kids are smarter/more academically able than others, and if you try forcing "all must go to college" on them then you hurt the less able ones without actually helping them.
This trans issue stuff is, in my uninformed opinion, in part because this is congruent with his beliefs and the cultural milieu he moves in, but also - and again, this is only my view - that when he had his unfortunate mental issue a while back and got into trouble, he got eaten by a lot of people for what he wrote/said during that time, with no sympathy. This is something he talks about to this day, so it plainly it bothers him. And I think the trans piece here is in part "when I was acting crazy, nobody had any sympathy for me", so he's extending compassion there, but also that he's terrified of saying the Wrong Thing again and being crucified again for it. Since the trans definition/claims/demands shift with the wind (remember when "it's about gender, not sex, because sex and gender are different things" was the line being sold? Yeah well now you're a bigot if you try and distinguish between biological sex and gender identify), it's entirely possible to say the wrong thing by mistake and unintentionally, and the Extremely Online who look for reasons to be offended will leap on any error and pillory you as "you want to send trans people to torture conversion camps and then kill them literally".
I might be misunderstanding you, but whatever happened to phrases like ‘penis havers’ and ‘menstruaters’? As dumb as they may be, they are references to biological sex.
Some of those got dropped because a trans woman can have a penis, and such persons were highly offended about being classed in as "penis havers" with men because they are not men and this is their perfectly legit lesbian feminine penis. Also, trans men may menstruate and become pregnant, and that doesn't mean they're women, bigot. Tampons for non-binary folx and trans men!
Truth being stranger than fiction, and all that jazz.
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I think the point of those phrases was to take away the references to biological sex. That is, there is no longer "male" and "female," there are "penis havers" and "menstruators" whose only meaningfully distinguishing characteristics are that they have penises and that they menstruate, unlike the people not in those categories. A pre-op MTF transwoman has both the same gender and sex as a ciswoman; she's just also a "penis-haver."
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Also, if you enjoyed the post, please consider subscribing to my Substack: https://firsttoilthenthegrave.substack.com/
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What a perfect analogy.
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I think that's actually too charitable.
Replace "trans stuff" with some obviously negative thing like "misquoting sources". If Freddie decided "I won't let you post any comments about how I've misquoted sources", does he have a perfect right to do so? Of course. Can he be criticized for it? Sure he can. Yes, it's his blog and he decides what goes there. But it can simultaneously be something he has a right to decide, and bad judgment.
The tone of this piece doesn't sound similar to what he generally writes, it's very defensive and ready to take offence, so I'm wondering if he hasn't already privately gotten into some trouble by stepping on toes in ignorance around trans issues, and this is the result: he's making very sure not to cross any lines and even by association be linked with anti-trans or transphobia. He knows what line he must take and he's not going to discuss anything so comments etc. are disabled. This is the Havel's Greengrocer putting up the sign about "I am a good citizen who does what is expected of him" attitude.
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Yeah, the argument doesn't really even work for when he totally avoided the topic and could claim to find it overbearing. As the OP points out: it's actually relevant to his own discussion of social contagions and mental illness.
After he dipped his toe in the water and mischaracterized people's arguments and motives?
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There are many petroleum geologists who have, after early retirement, dedicated their lives to proving a global catastrophic flood and with it young earth creationism.
Now of course they know that ‘different layers of rocks were formed by the global flood crushing altitudinal variation into strata such that it gives the appearance of many millions of years’ is, well, uh…
But I met the man who published a lengthy book which went over my head proving it. And he does know more geology than me(although in fairness I did take geology for nonscience majors before dropping out of community college) and was able to prevent people like me- very smart, familiar with terminology, but essentially a layman- from seeing obvious holes in his theory for how the Grand Canyon was 5,000 years old. That isn’t a weak man either; he literally used that as an example. And his ability to articulate reasons for why we should prefer his hypothesis for a catastrophic global flood reshaping the earth to accumulation over millions of years raised his status in his ingroup by quite a bit.
I think there’s plenty of that going on with trans advocacy. Enormous numbers of people know it’s ridiculous and then advocate it anyways because it cements their status as an ingroup member- or raises it. And it’s a waste of time to get all upset about it. Just like it’s a waste of time to write lengthy screeds about how micro evolution and macro evolution are the same thing. You won’t change any minds and you’ll just wind up bickering about definitions.
Does the young earth creationist publisher you know happen to be Andrew Snelling? I got a book of his once from a young earth creationist family member after I revealed I believe the earth is billions of years old, and while I of course disagree with the notion, I was quite impressed at the great length of the book, including several chapters spanning dozens of pages disproving every different form of carbon dating.
Nice analogy with trans advocacy.
No, Timothy Clary. He has a lengthy book now which I’m sure is very interesting; I saw a presentation of his which was very interesting and summarized several chapters but which occurred before publication date(it was already under contract to be released). I found it extremely thorough and well researched and I certainly couldn’t tell how it was wrong.
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I don’t find most of them impressive. The thing that bugs me is the way carbon dating and other radioactive dating is handled. When those tools provide a young-Earth friendly result, it’s reported, when it doesn’t, they tend to argue that radioactive dating is useless and cannot be trusted.
There are low effort and high effort young earth creationists. Most of the high effort ones put forth good enough arguments that you’d have to get a masters degree in whatever field(biology, geology, astrophysics, whatever) to articulate reasons for preferring the mainstream scientific consensus view, and have qualifications that are real enough but atypical of a university professor(like the aforementioned petroleum geologists). Of course there’s also high effort schizoposters like Walt Brown, but there’s a core of young earth creationist institutions which can hold their own intellectually.
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I also don't find most of them impressive. The vast majority of arguments against carbon dating have been totally poked full of holes years ago. But this particular book had a lot of work put into disproving each type. The author has a PhD in geology and has been working at this stuff for years, he no doubt believes it wholeheartedly and have been attempting to prove it his entire life.
That's not all to say he's right or anything. But I recently read that Scott article on his shuttering of the Culture War thread, where he states that you can take any view you oppose and there will be someone smarter than you putting arguments forward for it. That's who Andrew Snelling is to me.
This is the book I got from him, by the way. I just wish there was still some internet atheists madly disproving every creationist thing that gets put out. There isn't, because the evolutionists thoroughly won this one. I wonder if there will ever be another Great Awakening, or if Christianity will continue bleeding to death.
A bit parochial - Christianity is in decline in affluent countries but continues to expand in Africa and Asia, often accompanied by what most in those affluent countries would consider bizarre superstition far more fantastical than motivated reasoning against carbon dating.
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More right than you know.
Missing children are overwhelmingly runaways, actual abductions are overwhelmingly the parents, non-parent cases are overwhelmingly someone else known to the child, actual stranger abductions are overwhelmingly of teens.
Young children being abducted from a playground doesn't happen literally never, but it's so close to never that spending time thinking about it, and letting it drive larger policy issues, is both insane and counter-productive.
We talk about it because it's emotionally valent and easy to imagine. Not because it's important, not because it happens.
Same thing here. You can clearly imagine this situation in your mind, but it doesn't really happen. Not enough that we can actually say that trans bathroom rights make it more likely, not enough that it's worth warping public policy over.
Also, you know, the whole claim is mistaken to begin with, because: if trans people must use the bathroom of their birth gender, then Buck Angel has to use the women's room.
If your worry is that seeing male-looking people go into the women's room will make life more dangerous for women, then you should be in favor of letting trans people use the right bathrooms. Because way more male-looking people will go into trans bathrooms if you force all trans men to use them, than if you don't.
Let me stop you right there. It was never about male-looking people. It was always about males. It just so happens that being male-looking is a pretty good proxy for being male in the real world (despite what the trans lobby wants you to think).
The rationale is that many more males abuse women and girls than females do. Therefore, women and girls are safer in the presence of other females then they are in the presence of males. If you disagree with this fairly obvious statistic, what do you think women-only spaces are for?
Why do people who want to scare women with pictures of trans-identified females always go for the photoshopped ones, and not for a more realistic one that shows that Buck Angel is actually pretty tiny and nonthreatening compared to her male counterparts?
Moving away from anecdotes, I think it's important to realize that for every masculine-looking trans-identified female, there are probably three trans-identified males that are absolutely deranged, like Karen White, Darren Merager, or Michael Pentillä. Would I rather have women share a bathroom with a female porn star, or with a male serial killer and unrepentant rapist of women and young girls, you ask? Wow, what a dilemma you put in front of me! I just don't know how to choose!
No seriously, obviously it's the female porn star. If it were up to me, I'd put a hundred Buck Angels in women's bathrooms before I'd let a single Michael Pentillä in. It seems the obvious choice, if you want to optimize for women's safety rather than maximizing the euphoria of rapist serial killers. Was that really supposed to be some sort of gotcha?
That picture shows Buck next to Laverne Cox who’s quite tall and wearing heels, he’s actually the average height for a cis man in many countries at around 5’9. I personally wouldn’t use Buck Angel as the go-to trans man because he’s turned into a proto-TERF himself strangely enough, and far more physically impressive trans men absolutely exist, see Mitch Harrison who can stand next to the Rock and is 6’3 and is quite muscular.
How are you supposed to enforce sex-segregated bathrooms anyhow? Should you pepper spray anyone who you think doesn’t belong, like what happened to this tall biological female thinking they were in the presence of a biological male?
The sources I’ve looked up show no link between gender inclusive bathroom policies and crime rates, but if you have any that contradict that, feel free to share.
/images/17050293243343816.webp
Yes, but he's still the smallest of the five people, smaller even than the only other female. The point is: most transmen aren't that masculine, even not the ones hand-picked by trans-advocates, not to mention obvious women like Elliot Page.
Anyway, I didn't want to get caught up in discussing individual cases. I'll grant you that some well-passing transmen exist, but I think they're the minority. My argument more broadly is:
The average transman doesn't truly pass a man, and the average transwoman doesn't truly pass as a woman (arguably less so). So the argument that swapping transmen and transwomen is worse for women because now they suddenly share the bathroom with many more male-looking people isn't true: at best you're replacing male-looking men with male-looking women, which is sort of a wash.
But the more important argument is that regardless of visual passing, transmen are much less likely to harrass or assault women than transwomen are. That's why it's better for ciswomen to share the bathroom with transmen than with transwomen.
I don't think enumerating exceptions to the rule invalidates this argument.
I often wonder if people raising this question are disingenous. It's phrased as if the idea of sex-segregated spaces is a crazy far-out utopian idea, like universal basic income. In reality, all bathrooms in approximately the entire world worked like this throughout the entire 20th century, using the same mechanisms used to enforce most norms: through a mix of social contral and legal consequences.
Did you see the video of the Wi Spa where a male pervert enters the women-only section of the spa, so one of the women there goes to complain, and the employee at the desk can't do anything about it because in California it's illegal to kick male creeps out of women's spaces, and the only male patron who weighs in on the matter says "How can we know if the fully grown man with a penis isn't a woman?"
In the 90s, this scenario literally would not have happened. If a convicted sex offender entered a woman-only nude space with his dick out, all women present would scream at the top of their lungs for the pervert to get out. Employees would rush in to demand that the offender leave. Men would gather angrily at the door, ready to help escort the man out of the building, but careful enough not to trespass themselves. If necessary, the police would be called to take the man into custody.
Moreover, everyone knew that this is what happened to men who violated this social norm. That's why this type of crime was actually relatively rare.
No, of course. But first, I don't see how putting transwomen in women's bathrooms solves this problem, since a woman that is willing to pepperspray a masculine looking woman will obviously do the same thing to your average non-passing transwoman.
Second, I think some of this paranoia is actually fueled by genderism. In the past, if you saw a masculine-looking person entering the women's bathroom, you'd assume it was just a masculine-looking woman, because who else would someone use the woman's bathroom? Today, you can no longer assume that because males entering women's spaces is stunning and brave, actually. This puts gender nonconforming women under suspicion in a way they wouldn't be in a society that strictly enforces sex-segregated spaces.
Third and finally, let me explain how this sort of situation should be handled. If you're a woman who sees a man enter the woman's room, you first say “Excuse me sir, this is the woman's bathroom?” In 90% of the cases, he will look shocked and say “Oh, my mistake! I must have entered the wrong door” and leave. If it's actually a woman, then she'll say “Excuse me, but I am a woman!” In the case of someone like Rain Dove you can tell from her voice that she is speaking the truth, so you say “Oh, my mistake!” and that's the end of it. Now imagine you don't believe her because the "woman" is actually Karen White wearing a bad wig who couldn't pass for female in his wildest dreams.
Then you escalate the situation by finding a person responsible for the space, e.g. a security card in a public mall, the bartender, the office manager, etc.. You tell them there is a man in the woman's bathroom. They join you and ask the perpetrator to identify themselves. If they refuse, they are again asked to leave, and if they refuse, the cops are called.
All of this depends on government-issued ID to accurately label a person's biological sex. In the current world, all western countries have removed this label. This should be reverted. My (actually serious!) proposal is to list biological sex and socially desired sex separately, so we can still be polite by addressing transwomen as Ms So-and-so while separating them from women where sex matters.
I don't think there are sources that can show this. Not in the current world where:
Transwomen are a tiny majority, so even if they are significantly more likely to misbehave in bathrooms, you would need a lot of data to show that. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (actually it is, but only to a small degree, hard to get to p<0.05 that way). And that's before accounting for confounders. If a creepy male starts using the women's room and women stop going there, does that show he's not causing any problems?
You can't use crime statistics because the police is not even allowed to accurately register the biological sex of trans offenders, so while we could collect this information in a systematic way, gender activists ensure this doesn't happen (you might wonder why gender activists oppose this if they believe the results would be favorable to their cause?)
Academia is heavily politicized and genderism is one of those topics you are not allowed to objectively research. As a result, we cannot use academic sources to prove or disprove anything.
In short, I don't think you've seen compelling evidence that disproves the claim that transwomen are more dangerous to women than women (and transmen) are. I think you've seen a paper that said something like "we compared the number of reported incidents in inclusive bathrooms at the Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, populated entirely by highly-paid academics who value their jobs, with the numbers from the non-inclusive bathrooms at a Texas truck stop, and we didn't control for the myriad confounding variables that make that comparison meaningless, but we are going to conclude anyway that The Science™ shows inclusive bathrooms benefit women".
If you think I'm wrong, please cite the actual source you are thinking of. I'm sure I can poke one or more holes in it along the above lines.
On a meta-note: I feel a ton of this discussion about transgenderism is getting repetitive. I'm seriously considering putting together a document with the most common arguments pro and con, so instead of spending way too much time poorly reconstructing the same counterarguments, I can just say “you are using argument 69a, please see rebuttals 23a through c.”
It would save me a lot of time but I'm not sure if it would actually change anyone's mind.
Apparently something similar used to exist for creationism:
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This could be an interesting project. I find it's often hard to argue against the entire memeplex because the argumentation shifts constantly as it runs up against dead end and starts a new one until the interlocutors are exhausted.
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You trying to kill 50% of site traffic? 😩
Anyway, I doubt that would work. During the heyday of the online Atheism wars, it was common practise for both sides to compile wikis/dossiers with carefully curated links and even ready-made rebuttals for the usual objections raised by the other team.
It achieved absolutely nothing of note.
The default outcome of online argumentation is just about nothing at all, it is a minor miracle that it happens sometimes on this forum, and we usually attract more articulate, open-minded and erudite users than is the norm.
While I personally enjoy debate and discussion, including on values, it's more of a hobby rather than something I think is a net-positive return on my time and energy. If you want to convince people en-masse, you're better off doing something like optimizing for virality on social media, with all the concomitant loss of quality that entails.
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It's a crucial tactic that trans rights activists use. Many of their arguments derive from a foundational assumption that the trans person passes as the gender that they want to be (I've heard the bathroom argument turned in favor of the trans people by arguing that there's just as much danger if not more to a transgender woman being in the men's restroom than a man in the women's restroom), but much of the evidence to substantiate this assumption are photos taken using very specific angles and very specific lighting, if not photoshopped entirely. Candid, unaltered photos almost always show the trans person looking weird and out of the ordinary, if not failing to pass entirely.
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The people really concerned about "but I need to be able to use the bathroom I identify with" are the ones who, to be blunt, don't pass. Who have something that says "not biological/cis female" about them - I don't see much fuss about trans men using bathrooms and again, to be blunt, that's because a short, plump trans guy is a lot less of a threat to cis males than the other way round.
"I look insufficiently female so that I am in fear of being challenged" is behind a lot of the fuss around trans women wanting laws about bathrooms. And yeah, the creepers are going to take advantage of that. Buck Angel, to take your example, looks sufficiently male that using the men's room isn't going to stand out particularly. Now imagine someone who looks like Buck Angel in a skirt going into the women's room. That's the problem.
Or is it because the typical trans man is less interested in being a man than the typical trans woman wants to be a woman?
Of course trans men don’t want to be women- that’s the whole point- but I don’t hear about them hitting the gym To try to bodybuild or whatever. Trans women at least are wearing frilly dresses. Trans men seem to be aiming for something close to androgynous or at least desexualized.
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At least in my area of Europe, there is no fuss about anyone using men's bathrooms. Whenever there's a queue at the women's bathroom, but not the men's, cis women routinely use the men's bathroom, and I haven't heard anyone complain about it. This is not a new development, but has been going on for as long as I can think.
Men, contrary to women, don't have and don't expect reserved sex-segregated restrooms.
In the US we have them and do expect them, by and large. I certainly have never (edit: I remembered one occurrence, see below) observed women using the men's room, and it would be considered rude for one to do so.
You obviously have experienced a very different set of US restrooms than I have. I have regularly observed women using the men's room in the US and was mildly reprimanded as a child for complaining about feeling uncomfortable because of it.
That's interesting. The only time I have seen a woman use the men's room was in college, when this one girl would take a shower on our floor when she spent the night in her boyfriend's room. Multiple people complained to the RA about it, and he intervened to put a stop to it. Nobody (so far as I know) thought it was unreasonable to complain, even if they hadn't personally felt uncomfortable enough to do so. As an adult, I have never once seen a woman go into the men's room.
Taking a shower there is different.
Where I'm from (Canada) you routinely see the sort of thing JFKay talks about at crowded bars, concerts, and similar events, as long as the restroom in question allows for a reasonable amount of privacy.
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... Except for the law making it illegal in many states?
That seems like a fuss.
I seems like you're saying 'well Buck Angel can and should just casually break the law every day, it's no big deal'... Maybe if you're fighting for a law that you want lots of people to break every day, you should be fighting for a different law instead?
Listen, if people were passing bills that said 'You must have 1 year of HRT and FFS before using the women's room' in an effort specifically only to make sure trans women using the women's room mostly pass, that would still be contentious but it would at least be credible that that's what the laws are worried about and trying to fix.
That is not at all what the actual laws say, the actual laws say Buck Angel uses the women's room, and no one backing the laws in reality has any problem with that. The laws are anti-trans in concept, not just focused on a single set of outliers.
If the pro-trans lot didn't wave around Buck Angel every chance they got, I'd listen more attentively.
But since their 'sample case' isn't very convincing, I'm not bothered. I do think the illegal stuff was overdone, but on the other hand, if anyone now can predate - and yes, there are those who will take advantage - and there is no recourse because "well, it's the law and the ACLU took a court case and got a ruling", that does no favours to genuine trans people and only turns public opinion against them. That may be unfair, but it's how the world works.
I'll knock it back to you - which bathroom should the gay guy in drag use, as distinct from the trans woman dressed up like a clown, after drag queen story hour?
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What everyone wants is a law that says you cannot use a gendered bathroom if you don't pass as that gender. It's just a hard thing to define so they usually end up making it over or underinclusive on some other criteria.
I straightforwardly disagree. Maybe 'everyone' here wants that, but that's not at all how the politicians behind these laws talk about them.
But either way, I say again: you shouldn't be passing laws that criminalize hue swaths of actions you want to be legal.
If your goal really is just about the small subset of trans women who don't pass, find some narrower way to enforce that. If it's too inconvenient to be worth the effort, then it's not worth the effort.
Don't criminalize things you have no problem with just for the sake of convenience.
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No law is intended to make it illegal for TIFs to use the men's room, they're all designed to stop TIMs from using the women's room.
They have to be written in a neutral language, due to the 14th Amendment and the 1964 CRA. You know this, and I know this, and so does everyone else. I'm not sure why you're acting dumb about this issue.
???
You are agreeing with me that all of the laws apply to trans men and force them to use the women's room, but saying that's ok and good because they have to be written that way (for some reason), so it's ok that they criminalize things you don't want to be criminal?
If so, that is not how I want laws to work, you should not be criminalizing things you actively want people to do on the assumption they'll just break the law and it'll be fine. That seems entirely insane to me.
And I don't know where your confidence that Republican lawmakers have no problem with trans men is coming from. That's not what their rhetoric says, at all.
I'm not agreeing with you at all. You are both correct and missing the point.
I'm saying it's ancillary to the real point. An externality, if you will, nothing more.
For the same reason anyone has to put up with this delusional nonsense: 14A and CRA. Not just any reason.
It's ok to create laws that have externalities, yes, and to still support those laws despite the externalities, especially if you find them irrelevant.
These people are completely irrelevant when it comes to the controversies over sex segregation, in sport, in spaces, in restrooms. The problem is solely and exclusively with the men, not the women.
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How about Peeping Toms? Do they happen? Bathrooms seem like a great place to be a Peeping Tom.
I'm sure there's not very many pervs out there who get off on hearing women pee, but it's definitely not zero -- can you understand how women might not like wondering whether there's a perv jerking off in the next stall while they are trying to pee?
Do you think the sort of women who is concerned about males in the woman's room would prefer Buck Angel, or the "IT'S MA'AM' guy? Is Buck Angel prohibited from going into gender neutral bathrooms? Not sure how Buck Angel is relevant here, but under the trans-acceptance framework it seems like women are expected to put up with both Buck Angel and "IT'S MA'AM'.
First of all, your mask is slipping - your original claim was that you were worried about cis men pretending to be trans in order to access women's spaces, not about trans people themselves. But you have immediately moved your rhetoric to 'women putting up with trans people', revealing pretty much exactly what I was talking about in relation to the 'scrutiny' thing.
Second of all, I'm not sure if you're confused or what... under the trans-inclusive framework, Buck Angel and people who look like him go to the men's room. He only goes to the women's room if forced to do so by bathroom bills. That's the point.
So there are police outside bathrooms stopping people and saying "Yes, I know you look like a man but you have to use the women's room"? Or checking birth certificates? Apparently there was some such allegation, but I have to say - this is so clearly "used to be a guy" that I can see why they were allegedly asked for ID. There's an unfortunate photo doing the rounds but, um, yeah. Real Woman versus Cis Woman imagery.
This is the kind of "so stunning, brave, courageous!" puffery that annoys me. (Is the person portraying the trans girl trans or cis, because I have my doubts). Mainly I'm live-and-let-live about this; so long as you don't look too much out of place or behave weirdly, go right ahead (and hell, if you're cis male or cis female and the relevant bathroom is too crowded and you really need to go, then use the other one in an emergency).
But if you're having a cute little 'all girls together' online discussion about "so what is the etiquette about unsolicited offering tampons to another woman in the woman's bathroom" or similar, that's when you've crossed over from "I just need to use the bathroom" into "this is getting into fetish territory".
Alright, lets clarify here.
I'm saying these laws would oblige male-looking people like Buck Angel to use the women's restroom, which would normalize male-looking people going into women's restrooms, teh precise thing people are claiming these laws are intended to fix.
It sounds like you're saying this won't be a problem because you expect male-looking trans men to break the law and go to the mens room anyway. Please stop me if I am misinterpreting or misrepresenting you.
Are you saying that you want and expect the laws as written to be broken routinely, would be upset if most people the laws applied to were not breaking them most of the time, but still want the laws passed?
Because like, yeah, it's true that marijuana laws are broken all the time, and police only bother to enforce them when they want to punish some citizen for a different reason. That doesn't make them good laws, that makes them terrible affronts to our civil liberties and freedom.
Laws should not work like that.
I am reassured to know that trans people are so law-abiding and biddable, even if they really do look enough like a dude to be cast in a gay porn flick, they will obediently follow "I must use my natal sex bathroom". No, no, I realise there is no visual way to tell I am not a guy, but it's the law! Even if there are no police to enforce it, I will stick by the letter of it and not ignore it!
This line of argument is so stupid, are you surprised I'm not convinced by it? The people who would make a fuss are the likes of Sam Brinton, who get their kicks out of stealing women's luggage. Buck Angel may or may not be known to the wider public who don't view porn, and so they may or may not recognise "Hey, that's Buck Angel, trans man, trying to use the men's room! I am going to march up to him and demand he use his natal sex bathroom instead!" Also, whatever my views on Buck Angel, I'm pretty sure they're not interested in creeping on women, unlike the 'I'm trans, how dare you stop me!' cases. Oh but I forgot: if someone does that, well they were never really trans in the first place, they are No True Scotsman.
Yeah, progressive activists are so well-known for sticking to the laws and never opening their mouths. I think bathroom laws are not helpful, but I think laws enforcing "yes, this guy can use the same bathroom as women and children" aren't any better than "yes, this guy has to use the ladies' room".
My view is that nobody will know you are trans or not unless you are so obviously not the gender you are presenting as, and that's not a problem that can be solved by passing laws about gender-neutral bathrooms or 'anyone who says they're trans can use that bathroom', because there is also the problem right now of the trans activism push around 'nobody owes you feminism' or there is no one way of being female or the rest of it, which means a guy can stick on a wig and a skirt, claim to be trans, go into the women's room, and nobody can do anything about it because that's transphobia.
I would be way more sympathetic to "that will never happen" (as were the debates I got into way back when, before all the push for legal laws) except the 'slippery slope fallacy never happen cases' did happen, and the trans activism set had nothing to say about that except, in the extremes, "well that person wasn't really trans anyway". How can you be 'really' trans when there is no way to be 'really' trans that is not decried as medical gatekeeping, transphobia, enforcing the gender binary, and the rest of the political sloganeering?
Ok, so you're among the group that wants to pass a law they actively want people to break.
I thought that was an insane position no one would ever take, especially given how may libertarian-oriented sentiments we normally get when things like speech or guns or etc. come up.
But I guess that's a really common position, we want to pass a law that we want most trans people to break most of the time.
Seems insane to me. I will never agree to that being a good idea, even if I agreed with the rest of the logic behind the motivation.
Sweet Baby Ray, how much clearer can I get? I think bathroom laws are stupid, but I also think that trans people crying about bathroom laws is 90% political activity of the same sort that saw "we just only want the right to LUV, TWU WUV" get same-sex marriage passed in my country (and then prominent gays, like our current Taoiseach, are happy to appear in public with their partner but are conspicuously not getting married, doesn't he know he won't have visitation rights! if he's not married! he'll have to die alone and miserable! all the campaigning told me that and surely they didn't exaggerate just to get their way!).
The 10% of people who can't pass convincingly and so need legal bulwark about "yeah I know I look like a guy, but please let me into the women's bathroom" I'm sorry for, but there's nothing that can be done to help them until the creepers and predators are disavowed by the same campaigners who are out there convincing the world that "trans people are being literally lynched in bathrooms by the bigots right now".
If it's a stupid law, break it! Where the fuck did this worship of the literal letter of legislation come from, from people happy to go out screaming in the streets on protests about this, that and the other? I don't expect Buck Angel to go "well gee, I guess I'll have to use the ladies' room" in reality, no matter what the law says, any more than I expect them to stop being a sex worker, no matter what the law says. It'd be freakin' lovely if the trans lot were so slavishly ruled by "if the law says this, then I can't do it", because that would save the rest of us an ocean of trouble, but I don't see that happening in the world.
And if you really want my views? Trans women are not real women, trans men are not real men, biology is real, trans issues are mental health issues, but so long as you are not a screaming lunatic about it then hey, I can call you Susie and use she/her and not blink too hard if you show up in the ladies' loo. But I'm never going to believe that trans is the same as cis, and I'm not going to be brow-beaten or bullied into "if you don't think this, then it doesn't matter how you act, you are literally murdering trans people".
EDIT: Good God, I can't believe I'm having to invoke St. Thomas Aquinas here on "oooh, you want us to bweak the law!!!!" logic-chopping, but here goes: a bad law may be broken in good conscience. If the suffering trans martyr who will just die if he can't get his big hairy legs into the girlies' potty genuinely thinks the law is wrong and unjust, then he can break it:
The last word on this damn topic, and I wish the bloody bathroom law makers would think about this:
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Whenever I see a photo of "Charlotte" I can't stop laughing, because the motivation for her "transition" is so transparent. What a sick indictment of woke culture that you can have people calling for your head over some meaningless "infraction", and all you have to do is play Transition Card (+10 to cancellation resistance) and, literally overnight, you're back in the Twitterati's good graces.
Wow, 2014 was a different time.
Still—less booing of the outgroup, please.
You're right, I was in a bit of a goofy mood at the time of writing, I could've worded that better.
It really is crazy comparing 2014 Discourse (TM) to current.
I can’t imagine Scott wading into that kind of beef today. Not because he’s unwilling, but it’s so…earnest. I’m struggling to put it to words.
Maybe everyone learned something from the last ten years. Now the battle lines are drawn, the witty rejoinders are prepared, and the epistemic helplessness is learned. There’s no alpha in an earnest chat about the philosophical grounding of tribal affiliation. Which isn’t to say there’s no value—just that it’s harder to stand out in a field of cynics. No one leaves home without his umbrella and his casual disdain for Twitter randos. Delivered, of course, on the same site.
I dunno. Surely I’m overthinking the issue.
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Dunno who you think I am, but this is the first comment I've made in the thread and I don't do masks.
I'm not worried about any of it -- I'm a man and don't care who goes in the men's room. I do know IRL women who are worried about who goes in the women's room though.
My guess would be that a given Peeping Tom or piss perv is extremely likely to be a non-transgender heterosexual man? Who (in the case of the Peeping Toms) are known to go through schemes much more elaborate than "walk into a washroom and claim to be trans if challenged" in the course of their fetish.
You're the one bringing up Buck Angel -- it's a different failure mode, but still pretty valid. Not all women want to 'put up with' sharing a bathroom with trans males, is this under dispute?
If the bathrooms are gender neutral, Buck Angel can go in whichever one he chooses, no?
You were also the one who brought up the idea that Buck being in the ladies room would be some sort of problem under the traditional bathroom management policies -- or that's how I took "If your worry is that seeing male-looking people go into the women's room will make life more dangerous for women" anyways. If not, what did you mean by that?
So it's totally fine if you have a different position than the one I was responding to, it just means that my comment naturally wouldn't be a coherent reply to your position since it was responding to a different one.
The position I was responding to, as I understand OP to hold it, was: If trans women are allowed in women's restrooms, that will normalize malelooking people being in women's restrooms. That will make is easier for cis men who are perverts to fake their way into women's restrooms for nefarious purposes.
My point in bringing up Buck Angel is, if that is your model of the danger at play here, then Buck Angel using the women's room is an equally large problem. That would also normalize male-looking people going into the women's restroom in exactly the same way.
So, if your position is that the problem is male-looking people in women's restroom, bathroom bills do not actually solve that problem. They probably make it worse.
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Your hectoring tone is misplaced when I explicitly said that I can get onboard with the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms. I don't find the argument in favour of sex-segregated bathrooms hard to understand even if I don't necessarily endorse it.
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You know, gun advocates frequently point out the vanishingly unlikely chance of a school shooting, compared to all the other ways kids can die, but somehow this sort of statistical analysis does not move those of you who are suddenly about cold hard numbers over emotional valience when it is convenient. Yes, stranger abductions on the playground are rare compared to parental abductions, just as stranger rapes in a dark alley are rare compared to partner violence. But we still care about those things because they happen, and without vigilance against those things, they would happen more because predators are, in fact, out there.
Yeah, I don't really care about gun control, I agree that people use school shootings for rhetorical purposes more than on logical grounds.
I think we waste too much time and energy and social capital on low-frequency high-salience events like this, enough so that we make things actively worse in total. Sure there are some common-sense things we should do, mostly just staying alert, but the scare mongering and warping of everyday life to accommodate the media-driven panics around these issues are really bad for our society and the people in it.
Hm.
Yup, that sure is a bunch of my posts from 5 years ago in which I don't personally advocate for gun control, alright.
I didn't think I needed to post examples from 5 years ago backing up my claims about my beliefs, but I guess it's nice that you went and found them anyway.
Yeah, I do think things would be a lot better if there magically weren't any/as many guns in the country.
Magic isn't on the table.
So I don't care much about gun control. I don't think arguing about it is actually going to lead to the utopian outcome that would be good.
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That quote doesn't "personally argue for gun control" either, if you read it closely. They're just describing how other people might see things, not taking any position of their own.
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I believe him. I dont think he cares about the trans issue either.
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This is your second big top-level post where you disagree intensely with Freddie de Boer. I still don't understand why you read him if you disagree with him so intensely as to write these long posts, full of links.
It strikes me that he's a worse version of Scott, less self-awareness and modesty, a harsher and more strident tone. I took a look through his substack and saw nothing that stood out that much, whether I agreed or disagreed with him. Some of it is rather disturbing, the anti-tech not-quite-terror-manifesto you pointed out earlier. Where is the good FdB that you'd wholeheartedly endorse, where are the posts where he raises some really new and interesting thought?
As promised, here are a handful of posts by Freddie that I particularly enjoyed (some are paywalled), in no particular order:
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I'm in a similar boat as OP, and I've enjoyed his writing on education and his piece on "Wokeness", i think he's got a really good handle on cancel culture stuff, and his perspectives on media have been enjoyable even when I don't agree
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As it happens I've unsubscribed from his Substack, but I'm still paid up until May. I promise not to post another top-level post about something he's written for awhile.
There was much in his anti-tech manifesto that I agreed with, it just made me concerned for his state of mind. The two recent trans posts seemed disappointingly shoddily argued to me. Part of the reason my response contains so many links to previous things he's written is my way of saying "you're doing the exact same thing you complained about here, here and here - you're better than this". If you like, I'll dig out some links to some of his bangers for you tomorrow.
Too bad, I was looking forward to a post about his most recent one: lengthy throat-clearing about those creepy guys who go on about age of consent and evpsych and how you totally shouldn't fuck teenagers... followed by a rant about Gen Z freaking out about age gap relationships and why it's natural for men to wind up with younger women.
Made me wonder if someone called him a groomer.
The biggest lesson I can draw from it is that everyone should strive to be like Robert De Niro, still able to do the deed at 78.
Your comment intrigued me enough that I went to skim DeBoer's post to see what the fuss is about, figuring that people are mad because he's fucking a girl who just turned 18 or something. Imagine my surprise when I find out that his girlfriend is 45 years old. I have truly seen people get upset about everything imaginable now. There's absolutely nothing wrong, or remotely groomer-y, about a man of any age who is with a 45-year-old. She's thoroughly an adult who can make her own decisions.
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Between him and Al Pacino, the cast of Heat are jump-starting American fertility rates. Japan and Korea should just offer working holiday visas to a bunch of dudes called Sal and Paulie and they'll be back on track in no time.
His girlfriend is named Alfalfa?!
Ex, I believe.
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I'm reading it at the moment and so far I find nothing to disagree with in it. It's refreshing to get back to the rigorously analytical Freddie I know and love, rather than this defensive, evasive, why-do-you-care-it's-none-of-our-business posture he's been adopting for awhile.
I also do not disagree with his argument in itself. I just found it very ironic that he spent so much time making it clear that he totally isn't one of those evpsych bros who wants to fuck younger women, they're gross... before making what was basically a long, disclaimer-padded evpsych argument about how it's natural that men are going to fuck younger women. Of course he emphasizes repeatedly how unfair and sexist it is, but hey, nature, bro.
That's fair.
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Probably this one:
Freddie tries to eat its cake and have it, too. Both "internet creepers" and "a horde of screaming zealots" agree on the motivation of older men preferentially dating legal teens, and he insists both are wrong. He even says himself that "the male preference for younger women comes in dominant majorities", that this preference is a spectrum with a convenient peak in mid-20s, but some way the right slope is perfectly normal and the left slope is creepy.
If someone preferentially dates 18-year-olds because he's attracted to their bodies, it is more likely that the peak of his attraction curve is somewhere to the left of 18. It's simple statistics. If someone dates 18-year-olds because they are much more easily impressed by him having a job, disposable income, a car and ability to buy alcohol with impunity than women of his age, he's a creepy loser.
He plays the same game in his achievement gaps post. Yes, IQ is heritable, yes, IQ is an important indicator of achievement, and thus different IQ inherited from their parents explains gaps in achievement between individuals. Ergo, achievement gaps between groups that exhibit many other different heritable traits can be explained by... other reasons, no, not inherent differences in their IQ, never!
DeBoer's ultimate conclusions about age gaps are generally fine and sensible, though.
I was really disappointed that he didn't draw the world's most obvious parallel: female slut shaming is union workers getting angry at scabs. Given how leftist and worker-oriented Freddie claims to be, the parallel just strikes me as too simple to miss.
Women shame young women who get talked into a bad deal because when young women get talked into a bad deal it undermines the negotiating power of other women. In the same way that if scabs are willing to work unlimited overtime, it makes it hard for an honest worker to ask for an honest wage.
I don't think this is as obvious to someone within Freddie's (presumed) social circles as you might think. The idea that the dating market could even be thought of as a market of any sort, much less one with parallels to the employment market, would be, at most, a joke. And the idea that slut shaming could have any cause other than or with more complexity than some sort of brainwashing performed by the patriarchy - "internalized misogyny" is an often used term - would be nearly unthinkable.
At least, that's my speculation based on my own experience with my social circle of East Coast college educated liberals, which is what I think mostly describes Freddie's social circle too. Freddie's rather unorthodox in those circles, but even then, I think it'd be expecting too much that he'd perceive this kind of parallel as anything close to "obvious." There's just too much social conditioning that automatically shut down such thoughts that overcoming them would be extraordinary, rather than expected.
It just feels so right to me, I don't see how others don't see it.
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Fair point, it's a little bit weaselly, but nothing compared to the 50-foot-tall ferret of his arguments about trans stuff.
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I'd be surprised if that was the case, considering that his girlfriend is actually older than him, but who knows?
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If you told me they were written under duress, I'd believe you.
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I like Freddie, and I know he's solidly in a liberal to progressive milieu of who he grew up with, went to school, got jobs, is friends with, and so on.
But this one has a really defensive tone to me, rather than his usual way of making an argument.
The bathroom argument is so damn ridiculous on every side. My default opinion on this was "I don't care, there's no way I'm going to be looking into your knickers and so long as you just use the bathroom because you need to go to the loo, no skin off my nose".
But I am being made to care, because first it was that trans people would literally die you bigot if they couldn't use the right bathroom, and now if he's going to go all "Why do you care what bathroom someone uses?" on me, then I'm punting it back at him: why is it such a big deal for trans people to use the "gender I identify with" bathroom, then? If nobody is going to be protected from assault whether or not there are laws about "only biological men here, biological women there" then, uh, neither are trans people going to be protected from assault if there are laws about "any gender can use this bathroom". But we absolutely gotta get the second set of laws, because, well, we gotta.
What 'any gender can use this bathroom' does is make it easier for creepy people to take advantage. And yes, Freddie, there are creepy people out there. All the "you conservatives are only scaremongering, that thing you are whipping up outrage about will never happen!" scolding sounds a lot less convincing when there are cases like the "I'm a real woman and I can prove it by getting two women pregnant while I'm in the women's prison" guy. And there are cases like that, it's not an isolated incident, and they happen precisely because of the "gotta give the trans people legal protection and legal rights" rush, which is then abused by the creepy, the predatory, and the grifters.
One concern is the ability of people to use bathrooms without announcing what genitals they were born with.
Which they don't freakin' have to, unless they make a big deal out of "I am a lady, I wish to use the ladies' bathroom!"
How am I going to know what genitals you were born with, if you reasonably pass? Someone who looks like this, I may or may not think "Hmm?" but I'm not going to demand a birth certificate or that she drop her knickers and show me her genuine real biological lady bits. They're putting in the effort and so long as all they're doing is using the bathroom for its intended purpose, I have no problem.
Car dealership guy is their own problem; they look and sound like a woman, not a man, but I'm leaving it up to the gentlemen if they're worried about a short, fat, feminine-bodied 'dude' using the facilities.
It's the people that don't pass and are the attention-mongers that kick up about "announcing the genitals I was born with", and I'm coming round to the view that they want to be validated: yes, I know I look like a guy in a dress, but that doesn't matter, the law is now on my side and you have to let me go where I want and pretend you believe I'm really the same as a cis woman.
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Well, if they don’t want to have to do that, maybe they should consider passing.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of ex-men do not and will never pass is the center of the object-level disagreement (ex-women have a much easier time passing, are much rarer, and are not trying to use the political gender’s bathroom).
Basic self-awareness/pro-social behavioural norms dictate you use the bathroom of the gender you pass as, ex-men refuse to do this because reasons, hence the conflict.
And so fights over it come down to one faction insisting it has the right to pollute the commons with “It’s ma’am” against the one that doesn’t. All arguments made on either side stem from this root, because the conflict is not further reducible.
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This gestures at a particular kind of leftist argumentation that I find especially annoying, the "this isn't a big deal" argument.
Frequently leftists will bemoan their enemies for spending time on culture war topics when there are "real issues" to be contended with, decrying the culture war as a "fabricated distraction" that "doesn't matter to anyone".
Okay. Lose then. Concede. Instantly and completely. If it truly doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter if you win or not, right? Then just concede, and the meaningless distraction argument is immediately over and done with and we can refocus on the "real issues".
It's the same way that we all need to use whatever pronouns are demanded of us because "it's not a big deal". If it's not a big deal then why do I need to change anything? If it's not any of my business what pronouns people use, then why are you asking me to care?
I originally saw this construction in the form of; "If the character's race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?" countered with "If the character's race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"
I had a similar thought a few years ago. Sometimes I'd be getting into an argument with woke people on Facebook, and a well-meaning friend would DM me saying something like "I understand where you're coming from, but is this really the hill you want to die on? Maybe just let them have this one."
My only read of that is: "I recognise that people on 'my team' are perfectly willing to socially destroy someone for something that I consider extremely trivial - but I still consider 'my team' the good guys."
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I think you've misunderstood the "this isn't a big deal" argument.
The claim is that it isn't a big deal for you (the person opposed to whatever relevant agenda being pushed) to go along with it, but that the issue is important for the purported victim group.
For example - the pronoun case.
The progressive believes that if you don't respect trans people's pronouns, it will be traumatic to them, as you reject a fundamental part of their identity, and hence invalidate them as an individual - it's a form of violence (this manifests through, amongst other things, trans people actually killing themselves).
On the other hand if you just called her "she", despite not actually believing in the underlying philosophical framework of gender identity you um... oh wait, it doesn't cost you anything actually! (We all say things we don't believe in from time to time, that's called politeness)
It's basically the same idea as "it's impossible to be neutral in the face of oppression". One side is merely asking to be able to exist (see slogans like "trans genocide", "BLM", etc) whilst the other is not in any real danger: they're just edgy teens, ignorant bigots, and pearl-clutching church ladies.
That's the motte. The bailey is that it's one side of a strategic asymmetric rule similar to Dreher's law of merited impossibility ("that's not happening and it's good that it is"). Not a big deal if you comply, but a massive deal if you push back. @WhiningCoil had a great post about it in the why-is-it-always-vidya arena, talking about game mods which remove current-year stuff:
I haven't seen a pithy summary of this strategy. It doesn't really fit under кто кого. Maybe "it's not a big deal except that it is"?
That technique is also used.
But here I'm talking about the completely logically coherent argument that the struggles faced by the in-group simply are more serious (for object-level reasons particular to a specific issue) than the outgroup:
If we do X:
If we do Y:
But in all cases, this isn't some kind of Bailey. The progressives openly admit to holding this view. If you're convinced that the outcomes of X/Y are as above (perhaps it's marginally worse for outgroup if we do Y), then it's completely reasonable, even if you belong to the outgroup, to do Y.
There is no doublethink, merited impossibility, etc going on here. It's a disagreement on the object-level.
Isn't this just a rephrasing of Merited Impossibility?
Hm, maybe it is. I initially thought Merited Impossibility was more about noticing.
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Yeah, everyone misses the vital "it's costless for the oppressor, but infinitely beneficial/costly for the oppressed" framing used to get a foot in the door. It seamlessly transitions to "ok it's costly for the oppressor, but hurting them is actually good", but the initial push always relies on the "simple politeless reducing social friction" argument.
I'm not sure anyone's found a way to argue against it yet, and it's always too late once the rule is established.
"It's not costless to me, compelled speech is my one issue"
That's a valid rebuttal.
But I think most progressives genuinely struggle to believe people feel so strongly about free speech/compelled speech. I think this also contributes to them distrusting liberals who oppose the trans agenda - to them it sounds like you're just making up excuses to hurt people's feelings.
As I've drifted away from progressivism, I have come to believe that some people really do feel a deep level of discomfort and "ickiness" from being forced to say something they don't believe is true to avoid punishment - from observing non-woke people in real life and reading forums like this.
But personally I really don't think I can relate. I've read the stirring prose explaining how it's every man's natural right to be able to speak his own truth, etc. But I just don't feel it.
When I call a trans person their preferred pronoun, I'm not an emasculated liar, at least not any more than everyone else who is alive today and not part of some remote uncontacted tribe: whether you like it or not, you are totally controlled by society.
If the government says tomorrow that we have to eat bugs and live in a pod, there's actually nothing you or I could do about it (either we comply, or there's an escalating series of negative incentives that culminate in death) - the only reason we don't have to do that is because society doesn't want us to do that right now.
All of our freedoms are privileges that the establishment grants us - whilst morally you could argue X is a right, in practice, the government can take X away if they want to, and believe it won't lead to a revolt.
My question to you, and to anyone else that sees the compelled speech thing as a genuine issue - why do you feel this way? Why is this such a big issue for you? Can't you just tell people, who've made it abundantly clear they aren't interested in hearing your actual opinion, what they want to hear?
You're on the verge verge of understanding the importance of 2A to the people you described.
And yes, I don't want to tell lies. They chip away at an important part of myself.
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...Uh, that's, um... a pretty big difference in perspective right there, for sure.
What's your feelings about this quote:
Bolding for emphasis. Does that just read as empty rhetorical flourishes to you? Does it seem too old and out-of-context to be relevant?
Because government derives inextricably from consent of the governed, and rulers losing sight of that, and people allowing them to, is very, very dangerous for everyone involved. Society is innately cooperative; compulsion, whether of word or thought or action breaks that cooperation. Some compulsion is always necessary, but there comes a point where it's too much, against too many, and at that point society ruptures. Maintaining society means maintaining the peace and cooperation, and keeping the compulsion strictly limited. People who don't see the need to limit compulsion are like a person lighting cigarettes in the middle of a gunpowder factory: a danger to themselves and others.
Well sort of, yes (but I freely admitted that already)
They read as "empty" to me because - like all rhetoric involving "rights" - it fails to consider the part where, in the process of separate individuals living in a shared society seeking out their God-given right to Freedom, Pursuit of Happiness, Safety, etc, these "rights" come into conflict with one another.
The reason this quote (and countless others isomorphic to it) sounds so appealing is because it basically just says that the writer endorses maximising goodness in the world. To attack the weakest part - consider the phrase "pursuit of happiness", this describes literally everyone who wants something bad enough (Indeed, most trans people feel very happy when society uses their pronouns)
But to address the bold part - the fact the people have the "right" to abolish a tyrannical government is meaningless - rights, obligations, etc only make sense on the personal scale. Once we consider entire nations, in the absence of a higher power, stuff just happens, and we all have to go along with it.
In terms of emotion, it does resonate with me a bit (despite what I said above, obviously I think it's a good thing if we live in a world where people are free, and can pursue their bliss) - it presents only one side of the issue, ignoring the trade-offs (as all good propaganda does).
But I can do that with basically any issue. Since this started with progressivism, here's a pretty popular quote for leftists: "We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.” - James Baldwin
I mean this sounds pretty reasonable. Baldwin is happy to have an open debate, just so long as you don't dehumanise him. And I'm sure there's no way two reasonable people will disagree as to what constitutes "dehumanisation"
Yes I agree there's a limit to how much you can mistreat people before something gives.
I even think that the trans issue could end up being an important part of a rupture. However that would be through the part where a parent has their child taken away from them for refusing to affirm their new gender and consent on the child's behalf to HRT/puberty blockers (This is an actual problem I have with the trans movement - aggrieved would be an understatement if that happened to me in the future)
But forcing us to use trans people's pronouns (and hence lie)? No, not really. Maybe people might complain about it on internet forums and amongst close friends (I have friend who finds it annoying like you do), but I don't think they'll do anything about it.
I don't believe this is a necessary compulsion, but I think in degree, it is on a similar level to the other necessary compulsions: like not walking outside naked, not being allowed to comment on someone's disfigurement, not being allowed to voice politically incorrect opinions in general, etc.
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It's not a new concept, even formally.
Theoretically, we could become criminals and get away with it. Many recreational drug users, for instance, have been doing this for a long time.
Yes, at the end of the day, might may not make right, but it is still might. But that doesn't mean our freedoms are privileges granted by the mighty; to say so IS to accept that might makes right.
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But that didn't even work here, as the new "use preferred pronouns" rule shows. It's certainly not going to work anywhere else. The obvious reply is "that sounds like a you problem."
"That sounds like a you problem" is also the obvious rebuttal to trans people wanting different pronouns used for them. If (general) you don't respect my psychological comfort, why should I respect yours?
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Where I resent this framing is that it expects of people in terms of execution, while encouraging people to view every mistake as offensive.
My father occasionally calls me by the following names, especially if under pressure/upset: the first name of his handyman/carpenter, the first name of an employee he fired in 2013, the name of our dog that died in 2008. This does not reflect either that he doesn't know who I am or does not approve of the first name he gave me, just that his brain misfires.
Before we get into any conversation about misgendering, what does the naive error rate in use of gendered language look like? Do people use he instead of she, his instead of hers, on a purely mistaken basis at a 1% rate? A 5% rate? It isn't zero. Now ask them to execute a lie, against their basic instinct, 5,000+ times a day, that error rate will swell.
If trans people are "actually killing themselves" the blood is probably as much on the hands of people who tell them misgendering is offensive, as it is on the hands of those who misgender. Trans people are going to live a hard life one way or another, if they are to be helped the first thing they are going to need to learn is resilience.
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I'm unsure if you're endorsing the trans-inclusive paradigm, or simply describing it. If the former - I generally try to respect trans people's preferred pronouns within reason, but the idea that a failure to do so (even a malicious, knowing, intentional failure to do so) is denying the right of trans people to exist is preposterous.
I'm describing (the entire comment is attempting to more accurately explain/steel man the thinking that goes behind the "not a big deal" argument)
But I have heard this idea expressed by an actual friend in real life (in the form of the phrase "trans genocide") - and similarly find it a bit silly. So I'll try and steel man it:
You already did the first part of the steel man, as you changed "deny the existence" to "deny the right to existence", which is what is actually meant.
Under the framework of trans ideology, we all have a gender identity. This doesn't manifest in any physical manner (you may be a woman but have a penis and XY chromosomes) - but it is real in the sense that, if you try and ignore/suppress it, you will experience "gender dysphoria" (i.e. pain, like if I try and ignore my left arm and it smashes into a door frame)
But beyond this, your gender identity forms a key component of who you are as a human being, to express and have it affirmed is a necessary condition to be your "true self". When a trans person gets to live as their real gender (opposite to their sex), they experience "gender euphoria".
Before that moment, they were merely living a pathetic shadow of a life, forced to play act as something they were not - now they are their authentic self, it borders on the spiritual. If that sounds crazy to you, that's only because you never had the misfortune of having a sex-gender mismatch - it's hard to appreciate water when you've never been thirsty.
So when you refuse to affirm their gender you deny them of having a truly fulfilling existence - they can never actually be themself*
*Whilst the first paragraph is completely standard progressive theory, I am putting words into their mouths a bit with the later parts (I don't think I've ever read anyone say what I said there, but I do get the sense that a lot of people believe this on some level, based on personal interactions, hearing activists, and terms like "gender euphoria")
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I see. So the demand is that we be closeted about our beliefs -- that we're free to have them, but never to express them in public? This is a form of conquest of the mind;
Imagine if atheism were treated the same way. You're free to not believe, but you must never take the Lord's name in vain in public, or blaspheme in any other way, because it mortally offends the Christians. We would not consider this standard to be acceptable.
Do you know what I consider polite? Not laying claim to the speech of everyone around me to shore up my own identity. Not making my problems into everyone's responsibility -- THAT'S politeness.
...and to control the language use of everyone around them.
Precisely. I'm personally against this now, because I think the current transgender movement is, at best, not improving the state of society, and I don't want any of my future children to be transgender.
However I don't really have a problem with this on the meta-level: when I used to agree with the trans movement, I happily and sincerely endorsed this unwritten rule, as I (and it would seem, most progressives) don't really care about free speech.
I think you're half right. I think that progressives believe this is the case (but obviously they can't say this the way you have, it sounds awfully 1984) - and see this as a good thing, because this "conquest" will bring about a more equitable and tolerant society.
But I'm not sure this will work out - I think that the progressive movement is going to keep pushing the boundary, until more and more people are directly affected (e.g. their child decides to become trans), and then they will end up losing a lot of objectives they considered set it stone (gay marriage, civil rights legislation, etc)
There is a limit to the amount of ruin that the public can be made to ignore by social pressure and catchy slogans.
What does "acceptable" mean? I would weakly prefer the current arrangement where I get to say I'm an atheist and take the Lord's name in vain to the hypothetical. But on a list of things that I want to change about the world, it would be pretty low down.
If someone asked me, in confidence, how I felt about the new theocracy - I'd say it's not ideal, but it's acceptable.
I disagree. Being "polite" just means conducting yourself in a manner to avoid causing conflict or offence, which in particular means obeying the societal consensus on issue X.
Further - politeness is a descriptor of personal interactions. When you meet a trans person, and you are implicitly compelled to refer to them by their preferred pronouns, they aren't doing any of the things you said - all of this was done by hundreds of activists/professors/politicians/etc over the course of about a decade preceding the interaction.
If you or someone else manages to organise some kind of grass roots activism campaign that ends up garnering enough support to revert back to the old social norms of calling trans people by their sex (unless you just want to be really "nice") - then that will become the new polite, and the trans person who "politely" insists on being called "ma'am" will become impolite.
As I said elsewhere, I was just describing a typical usage of the "not a big deal" argument (my bad for making it sound like I endorse it)
But yes, obviously the trans movement (like every other movement) asks for far more than just not literally being killed.
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Sounds a lot like Indonesia.
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Yes, but Lenin put this argument much more simply; "кто кого?" or "Who/whom?". My opponents do not get to decide what's a big deal for me.
I disagree. Who/whom is a lens of pure conflict theory + post modernism (there is no objective truth, if the enemy says X, all that means is that they want me to think X is true - it has no meaning divorced from who said it)
The "not a big deal" argument is mistake theory. You talk about "a big deal for me", as though all grievances are subjective, and so all grievances are equally legitimate as I can make a problem "legitimate" by feeling really strongly about it.
In the mistake theory framework, we can objectively measure how bad any particular grievance is (by using a utility function that everyone can agree upon), and then you can argue (irregardless of which "side" you're on) that grievance A, in comparison to B, is not a big deal (not "for me/you/them", but just not a big deal, unqualified)
In each specific case, the leftist argument is that the negative utility represented by the suffering of the marginalised group is so huge, that any minor discomfort experienced by the "privileged" group is trivial in comparison.
And I think the modal leftist sincerely thinks this, and isn't trying to trick you. They believe, even in your shoes, they would espouse the same policies (The anger comes because they think that you simply don't care about trans people's well-being. That as a "transphobe", you know they're suffering but you just don't care)
There is no such utility function. In practice, if you can keep a grievance pusher in the argument long enough (i.e. they don't leave and don't get you removed), they will eventually reach "the harm to you doesn't matter but the harm to those of the grievance class do".
Yes. This is who/whom, nothing more. You can put it in "mistake theory" terms by claiming there is some sincere mistake about measurement of the harm, but that's just window dressing.
Which would match how they treat women who complain that, in fact, they do consider it a big deal. If they're merely mistaken about the relative harms why attempt to destroy anyone attempting to help them update?
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I was always offering to completely concede "real issue" of their choice for a concession of a "fabricated distraction". No takers so far.
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I'm just glad he's right half the time. That's progress.
Anyway, yes, 'I have no problem with group X, I'm just really worried about (blood libel against group X), why can't we talk about that?' can be a frustrating thing for the few people who actually mean it. The problem is that 99% of the people who want to talk about the blood libel against group X don't mean that, they just want to destroy group X by any means necessary, and the antibodies society has formed against them on that basis are right and correct. It sucks if you get caught up in the inflammatory response unfairly, but, that's immune systems for you.
But, anyway: the reason that we don't talk about that stuff is because it happens once or twice across the whole nation, or it's already flatly illegal and there are already policies in place to correct it, or the other side already agrees with simple policies to address it, or it has nothing to do with the topic at hand in the first place.
If bathroom policies come up, and one side says trans women should use the women's room, and the other side says 'it should be illegal for cis men to go into the women's room', then congratulations! Both sides agree 100% on what should happen, and can start talking about optimal policies to accomplish it.
But the side that says they're worried about cis men entering women's bathrooms never sounds like they're 100% in agreement with the trans activists and ready to work together on policy proposals, funnily enough. They say they're just against something that teh trans activists are also against, but it sounds like they're trying to oppose trans women using women's restrooms at all. That's certainly what the laws they propose and pass say!
Same for the rest of it. If your point were to agree with trans-activist policies on what happens to trans women, and just wanted to shore up the edges to guard against bad cis actors, there'd be no disagreement. In reality, the people bringing up these issues are trying to curtail rights for trans women, that's why they're bothering to mention it whenever the topic of trans rights comes up. Society is not wrong to notice this coincidence, and group them on that side of the issue.
[And if you insist that Freddie needs a principled reason to treat trans discussion differently from HBD discussions along this axis, the answer is incentives. There's currently a ton of policy leverage, votes from republicans, and money for pundits in anti-trans rhetoric; there's currently very little money//power available for people making HBD claims. That's because society considers the latter a generally-closed issue, and the former is central to right-now-today culture war fights and political campaigns. So the incentive for a grifter to pretend 'I have no problem with trans rights, I just worry about males rapists' is many orders of magnitude stronger than for a grifter to pretend 'I have no problem with black people, I just worry about meritocracy being preserved' or w/e. Along with the orders of magnitude stronger incentive for anti-trans grifters making that argument dishonestly come the orders of magnitude more people actually doing it, which is why the prior probability on someone saying those things being a grifter you should ignore or condemn is also orders of magnitude higher.]
If you're accusing me of blood libelling trans people, I'm curious to know what in my post constitutes a blood libel.
Honestly, I think Freddie is almost exactly as evasive about HBD as he is about the trans issue.
I've already explicitly stated (in the OP and in a comment replying to you) that I don't really have an issue with gender-neutral bathrooms. As I also pointed out in the OP, it's not the fault of gender-critical people that there's no reliable way to distinguish between trans women and cis male bad actors. Setting up a standard in which a trans woman is anyone who claims to be one and trans women are under no obligation to communicate that they identify as women by presenting themselves in a conspicuously feminine way is a recipe for disaster. No one should be labelled a bigot for the crime of being unable to read minds.
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Neither the average male nor the average female is competing in/winning at high-level sporting competitions.
Alright, let do this again:
The actual observed evidence, unless anyone can show me otherwise, is that trans women have no competitive advantage. Competitive advantage means winning more often, and if you win more often that shows up in stats. Sports stats are among the most obsessively collected and analyzed numbers in our society, no one has ever been able to show me a simple t-test showing that trans women win more often than cis women. No matter how many anecdotes you have and how strong your intuitions are, there's a straightforward statistical definition that's easy to test, and it doesn't support the idea of an advantage.
How is that possible in the face of your strong intuitions about the average man and the average woman? Well, you need to be able to picture population distributions in your head. Like this:
Take the population distribution of males and the population distribution of females, you'll see the mean for males is higher wrt most types of athletic performance. Ok.
Now:
Make a new distribution by picking out the ~.2% of the male population that are trans women.
-Does this population have the same mean athletic ability? I would guess not, there's plenty written on innate brain differences between cis men and trans women, no surprise if those affect the body and maturation as well. Also if you believe in social contagion, boys who are already 'soft' and not 'winning' at masculinity are more likely to fall to being trans as a good alternative. Also today lots of trans teens are taking puberty blockers and not going through the average male puberty in the first place. Strong correlation with autism which has a strong correlation with being an indoor kid. Etc. etc. etc. -Does this population have the same variance in athletic ability? Absolutely not, it's 500x smaller and has a strong selector on the people in it being similar to each other, both of which are going to shrim the variance and reduce the extremity of the outliers.
Now, put that population on HRT for 2+ years, which is the minimum many professional sports organizations require. Does this shrink all the bones in a way that completely reverses teh effect of male puberty? No. Does it atrophy muscles and do lots of other shit that moves the population average on athletic ability downward? Fuck yes it does. Does it also further decrease variance? Probably, since it's a huge biological intervention that moves everyone in the same direction.
Now, compare this tiny modified population to the population of all females.
-Is the mean for the trans women population on athletics still higher than for the female population? Who the fuck knows. We've never really measured it precisely enough to say, we know it's not the same as for the larger male population anymore.
But who cares? The average person isn't winning professional athletic competitions, the most extreme outliers in the whole population are winning them. So:
-Is the most extreme outlier for the trans women population higher than the most extreme outlier for the female population? Keep in mind that the female population is 500x larger, leading to the most extreme outliers being many standard deviations further out for the female population than the trans women population. And wherever the mean for the trans women population might be, it probably has a lower variance as well for the reasons we talked about.
So there's a lot of strong reasons why the strongest outliers in the female population would be better than the strongest outliers in the trans women population. It's pretty straightforward stuff if you think in terms of population distributions, and most importantly, the male average vs the female average tells you almost nothing useful about this question.
Now, is it still possible, after all that, that the trans woman outliers are better than the female outliers? Sure, anything's possible.
And if that were true, we'd expect one of the 20 billion anti-trans pundits to have done a simple t-test on win/loss records showing that advantage, and publicized it at some point in the last 15 years we've been arguing about this.
Absent such a test and in the face of all the reasons to expect otherwise, my money is on 'no advantage' until someone shows something more persuasive than an anecdote and intuition.
Anyway: you use this sports stuff as evidence taht trans activists are inherently claiming there's no difference between men and women, because they're claiming trans women don't have an advantage over cis women in sports. But it should be blindingly obvious that these two facts are only logically related if you assume that there's no difference between trans women and men. Which you may believe, but the activists don't! For the good reasons I've shown here, and more!
So there's really nothing to this part of your claim.
I'm not sure if averages will necessarily be enlightening, because we can easily imagine a multimodal distribution. On one hand, transition doesn't necessarily lead to removal of all biological sex differences, on the other it's a medical procedure that can have negative health effects impacting athletic performance. Both seem very plausible.
If, as an exaggerated toy model, transition half of the time does nothing, half of the time completely cripples the patient, we'd observe it averaging out, but half of transwomen would easily dominate.
We don't need to look at averages when we can look at individuals. If we take a specific individual and compare their relative performance before and after, that tells us what transition did in their case. If Lia Thomas or Laurel Hubbard go from average in the male division to record-breaking in the female division, then clearly transition doesn't guarantee to nullify the sex advantage, and therefore shouldn't allow competing in the female division. It doesn't matter if even 90% of transwomen are average and some have health issues - the women competing against Thomas or Hubbard still got robbed.
That's all very possible!
And if it were true, it would show up in win/loss records!
To be extremely clear, the form of my argument is this:
Intuitions that trans women athletes must have a huge advantage because the average man has a huge advantage over the average woman are wrong. We have no idea what the trans woman distribution looks like, and the relevant measure is the outliers rather than the average. So we should acknowledge our state of ignorance about that and have really weak priors about whether there will be any advantage and in which direction.
Absent strong priors based on ability, the way to figure out whether someone has an unfair advantage in a game is to look at whether they win that game significantly more often than chance. This is the type of sports record that shows up on ESPN 5 times a minute and is generally easy to access.
Since no one has ever demonstrated a statistical advantage in win/loss records and we have weak priors about innate ability, we should assume then null hypothesis for now and let trans women compete. If that leads to gathering enough data to demonstrate an unfair advantage some day, then we'll have a legitimate reason to revisit that decision.
So 2 responses.
1 is 'I disagree'. There are a trillion local and regional sports records for a trillion things, records get broken literally every day by cis athletes. The question is whether trans athletes break them more often than than would be proportional. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what men's division you were in, it matters whether the women's division is a fair contest with you in it. If they win every contest they ever go to and no one can compete with them, that's probably unfair. If they won one competition once and then lost every other competition, well, it seems like cis women are competing against them just fine and there's not a problem. (Thomas broke no records for example, just had one good meet)
2 is 'Yeah anecdotes aren't data, for all I know something fucky was going on in those situations and the optimal policy precludes those situations. I already talked about sports requiring 2 years of HRT as a fine thing that needs to be part of the conversation, did those anecdotes have 2 years before competing? Did they go of it before competition? Maybe weightlifting is a sport where it's actually not fair and a statistical analysis would show that, if so then maybe you have a ban there but don't need one in soccer or tennis. Etc. If we took away entire demographics rights because of 2 anecdotes, we'd be in a lot of trouble as a society. 2 white men have ever committed insider trading, maybe white men can't be trusted with high-level positions in corporate America. Etc.
I disagree. The situation is that normally ineligible people are demanding special allowance, on the basis of arguing that they have a way to nullify the impact of the property that makes them ineligible. The onus is on them to prove that it's really nullified. If we don't know either way, we play it safe.
Doesn't need to. If the transwoman only makes 3rd place, then the woman in 4th lost the bronze medal. If that's due to an unfair advantage, that's bad and she was treated unfairly.
But not by mediocre cis athletes.
Hubbard and Thomas perform better than before, by a lot. This shows that transition gave them an advantage.
This isn't a rights issue, there is no right to compete in the women's division with a male body. Cis men don't get to, and no one has a problem with it. The question is whether transwomen should get a special allowance.
Not at all. The situation is that women want to play on women's teams.
Obviously, if we try to argue about what is 'the situation' in these terms we're just going to pointlessly fall to the semantics which we disagree about.
So lets just say: the freedom-maximizing position is to let anyone play on any team, we only diverge from that when we have a very good reason to (which is why there are men's and women's leagues), we currently don't have good evidence that trans women need to be excluded from women's teams.
Typically the onus is on the person wanting to penalize or exclude someone to provide proof, that's the concept behind 'innocent until proven guilty' and the like. It's a good rule of thumb.
I'm talking about 'unfair' in terms of 'not possible to compete against'.
If they didn't come in first, obviously other women can compete against them.
You're talking about some kind of metaphysical 'fairness' where you have decided that being good at something because you were born male and then transitioned is 'unfair', but being born female and really talented at it is 'fair'. I think that's always going to end up being weird and arbitrary and impractical to use as an actual standard, it just falls into promoting personal prejudices that will be different for different people, it's never going to be enforceable because it's not based on any consistent standard beyond 'I don't like this'.
And it's not relevant to the actual competitors. What's relevant to them is whether the matches they're in are competitive.
They're not mediocre cis athletes. They're exceptional trans athletes.
If they were mediocre trans athletes, then the exceptional trans athletes would have broken their records by even more!
That's the point, if the actual trans athletes that exist are fair competition, then that's all that matters. Maybe if the trans population were 500x larger than it is, it would throw really exceptional athletes that no cis woman could ever compete against, and it would be unfair to let them in the same league. But we're not in that world, as far as any statistical data can tell us.
Again, you have some personal intuition that if someone has a rank in the men's division then transitions they should have the same rank in the women's division. But that's just an arbitrary weird thing you made up. It doesn't affect whether the women's division is a fair and competitive environment, and there's no obvious reason why we should care about it - or, more importantly, why we should restrict people's rights based on it.
Sports divisions are based on biology, and the people in question aren't biologically female. I don't want to play semantics games about what "woman" means, that's missing the point.
The proof is easily given though: We have male biology. The burden of proof now shifts to the affirmative defense of "in this case the effects of male biology don't apply".
We have good evidence that male need to be excluded from female competition. We would now need evidence that these particular kind of males do not.
No, fairness is a function of the game, and if the premise of the game is that male advantages aren't allowed, then any kind of male advantage is unfair. It wouldn't automatically be unfair for a male to compete against a female as long as it's in the open division, however.
They were mediocre athletes, then they transitioned and became exceptional. This proves that they have an advantage from transition, because they're mediocre on their own talent. This is not just "personal intuition". It improved their ranking, so it gave them an advantage.
Exceptional trans athletes would be exceptional athletes who are trans, like Caitlyn Jenner.
Allowing certain mediocre athletes to perform exceptionally based on advantages that the division is supposed to exclude is not fair. Competitive is a separate matter.
And the reason we care about excluding it is the same we have women's divisions to begin with.
Like I told you, there are no rights being restricted, and if you disagree, you should explain which rights are restricted how, not just assert it.
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You say "not at all" but nothing you say actually changes that they were "normally ineligible" to play in female teams with attempts to change that only recently (despite attempts to promote female sports going back to Title IX).
Your attempt to leverage semantics in your favor (e.g. via the word "penalize" vs "exclude") doesn't actually defeat the basic claim about the status quo.
Even if they were uncontroversially considered women - and they aren't - they were/are still ineligible.
Yeah that's why my literal next sentence was saying this is pointless semantic games and we should use an empirical metric instead.
I've been suggesting win/loss record statistics as an unambiguous and definitive empirical metric here, so we can ignore all teh rhetorical games and just decide the matter on facts. I'd love to get more engagement on that actual proposal.
Per your claim, the situation of fact is that we don't have good evidence, so we need to decide what to do as a default until we attain it, whether the burden of proof is on excluding or allowing transwomen in. You are the one who started rhetorical games about "women on women's sports", weaponizing the ambiguity of "woman", with regards to that.
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All this is probably true for typical transwomen. But transwomen athletes are not a random selection of typical transwomen, they are much more likely to be outdoor kids that like winning and being strong and agile. Successful transwomen athletes are also not a random selection of transwomen athletes, they are much more likely to have transitioned later in life and gone through at least some of the average male puberty, or have a body that is much less susceptible to HRT, or both, simply because these traits are what makes them more likely to win.
And I know the answer to this is "So what? Successful ciswomen athletes have also won the genetic lottery, or they wouldn't have won against equally diligent women athletes. East African ciswomen runners already dominate Olympic marathon rankings, how is it different from East African transwomen dominating them instead?"
Right, they're the outliers from that distribution I'm having you picture, that was the whole point.
That's why I'm talking about the variance and range of that distribution, trans athletes are pulled from the positive tail of the overall trans distribution.
The idea you should have in your head is that the cis woman population throws outliers, the trans woman population throws outliers, and if those two sets of outliers fall into generally the same range of ability for whatever reason, then competition between them is fair.
if
You know, being a mod and seeing the moderation queue makes me wonder how the previous ones didn't have a nervous breakdown from the sheer number of spurious and pointless reports.
This one caught one for "low-effort", and while a laconic dismissal isn't a robust rebuttal, in this case it's clearly obvious that you're disputing a load-bearing aspect of @guesswho 's claims, and both of you have discussed your concerns in more detail. Someone following up a string of high-effort comments with a low one will not be scolded for it.
To the person who reported this, come on, you lose the right to complain about being dogpiled and unfairly reported if you're going to engage in frivolous reporting yourself.
At the very least, I have personally done the same if without the mods at the time taking umbrage, and so have many others. So from precedent and enlightened self-interest, I don't see anything here worth complaining about.
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Yeah, if. That's why I'm inviting anyone at all to provide data, if they're so sure they're obviously correct.
I am glad we've identified the crux of the disagreement. You expect that two different groups of people should have broadly equivalent results because they represent two wider groups of people, one of which is doing their best to resemble the other, if the opposite isn't proven. Most people arguing with you, including me, expect that two different groups of people should have broadly different results, because they have different origins and the athletic results of transwomen depend on how much they resemble their natal sex physiologically, again, if the opposite isn't proven. Neither side really has any data, so both sides resort to "obviously-ing" they way out.
I do not claim that they will obviously have similar performance.
I claim that the other side's reasoning is deeply flawed, and we're actually at a state of ignorance about relative performance.
I claim that there's a simple empirical metric that we can use to determine fairness, that's easy to measure and calculate, and we can use that to answer the question just as soon as anyone bothers to measure it.
I claim that absent any current evidence or valid logic to expect unfairness, we should default towards liberty and freedom and granting rights for now.
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You're making several extremely large leaps in logic here. As far as my understanding goes, this claim was first made in a Dutch paper from the 1990s, which examined slivers of the brain taken from deceased trans women. The study found that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in transsexual women’s brains was more like that in females than males. It was only later that critics pointed out that these results were hopelessly confounded by the fact that the trans women in question had been on HRT for years if not decades, meaning it's impossible to tell if these observed similarities were present from birth or came about as a result of HRT. The findings from the Dutch paper have never been replicated. Even Dr. Joshua Safer, quoted in the ACLU article I cited in the OP to justify trans women competing in female sporting events, has described the findings as the "weakest data" and admitted that they've never been reproduced.
If you have better evidence that trans women's brains look more like female brains than male, I would love to see it.
But even granting this, you can't just leapfrog directly from "trans women's brains look more like female brains than male brains" to "ergo, trans women are systematically weaker, slower and less resilient than the male average". Those are two completely different claims.
One of the major criticisms of the excesses of the modern trans activist movement is that self-ID has radically changed the profile of what the typical trans woman (and trans woman athlete) looks like. Thirty years ago, when coming out as trans was rare and stigmatised, I wouldn't find it too hard to believe that the average trans woman was a frail and delicate little thing. Nowadays, when the category includes hulking thugs like Karen White and Fallon Fox? Not so much. This is pretty much exactly the criticism that so many female athletes are making of trans-inclusive policies in sports: while we might be sympathetic towards including a trans woman who has been dysphoric since prepubescence, who never underwent a conventional male puberty and has been (and will be) on HRT for her entire life - that sympathy vanishes when a towering Liam with a five o'clock-shadow who's been through puberty realises that he can't score a gold in the male leagues and opportunistically starts calling himself Lia.
Many, but not all. See this article about disc golf, in which the Professional Disc Golf Association officially required that trans women athletes "bring their blood testosterone levels down below 10 nmol/L", but in practice the competition was essentially run on the honour system, allowing males who had gone through puberty and who had not suppressed their testosterone in any way to compete alongside females. See also the Ladies' Gaelic Football Association, whose policy on transgender women does not mention HRT or testosterone levels at all as conditions for competing.
Perhaps not to the extent that you believe:
I'd like to respond to your argument in full, but there are so many half-baked or outright faulty assumptions and leaps of logic just in these three points, that I suspect it's built on foundations of sand.
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This type of thinking and rhetoric based on the absence of evidence is never going to convince anyone to change their view (in both directions). But I'm going to argue this onus is on the pro-trans side, not anti-trans, to provide the statistical evidence.
I could just as easily stake the claim that the actual observed evidence is that trans-women have an observed competitive advantage and that no one has ever been able to show a simple t-test that trans-women don't win more often than cis women. Surely one of the 20 million pro-trans pundits would have done a simple t-test on win/loss records showing there is no advantage?
The default view should not be that there is no advantage or that there is an advantage, if you had absolutely no bias and knowledge of the world around you the default view should be "I don't know." You can't pretend that your view on this topic is entirely based on statistics if you have a default position. Absent any statistical tests, you can't accept or reject the null hypothesis that the two populations are equal.
This brings up a greater point about the formation of knowledge. Is most people's knowledge of the world based entirely on statistical reasoning? No, and I highly doubt yours is either. Statistics can be used to aid in the formation of, support of, or contradiction of an argument. But most people don't have statistical facts or knowledge and yet somehow have opinions and an understanding of the world around them. Most knowledge is built intuitively and empirically through personal experiences. If your goal is to convince people of your perspective you cannot simply point out they haven't provided "any" statistical evidence and then fail to provide any of your own.
So what should be the default position on the advantage of trans-women over cis women? I said earlier it would be that "we don't know" if we have no knowledge of the world, but the fact is people have intuitive knowledge about the world. Thus the default view is that trans-women do have an advantage over cis women. The topic in the trans issue in women's sports is whether trans-women should be allowed to compete in women's sports, and the default position for a reasonable person is that trans-women have an advantage, and this is the majority view.
In 2023 a Gallup poll found 69% of Americans already oppose allowing transgender athletes in sports, up from 61% just 2 years ago. You are not going to convince most, if not any, of these people to support the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports by saying they haven't provided you with some evidence. Some sports organizations have created very specific criteria to allow trans-women to compete, but with the way the trends are going people are eventually going to create their divisions/competitions where only biological women are allowed to compete. Athletics is an area of human endeavor that can only exist due to public support, and if the people don't want trans-women in women's sports then they shouldn't be allowed in women's sports. Given the trends in public support and the fact that female athletes are now refusing to participate in competitions against trans-women athletes, I'd say it really should be the pro-trans side to provide the evidence to convince people to the other side, not the other way around.
By the way, why haven't there been any t-tests (or any other kind of statistical comparison) done to show any proof in either direction? Here are a few reasons:
Also, your reasoning is flawed. From your initial premise:
Win rates for male athletes is the same as win rates for female athletes because they compete in separate distinct categories. There are not enough male-female cross-competitions to do a statistically valid comparison of win rates where the genders face each other. The only types of sports where you can do a comparison are competitions where you compete based on some kind of recorded value (such as finish times in racing or swimming, weights lifted in weightlifting, etc). These are competitions where physical advantages directly translate to victories because those competitions are about the factors that have measured physical advantages.
When it comes to the physical advantages of trans-women to cis-women, there are so many different studies showing all the different advantages trans-women retain even many years into their transition. I'm going to link to this article by a rugby coach with a master's in sports and exercise science which I think does an excellent job at compiling the scientific literature on strength differences between men and women and between trans-women and women. He also provides some interesting points to consider beyond the physical differences.
To summarize some of his points:
There are literally examples of trans-women completely blowing out female records in the competitive sports I brought up earlier. Lia Thomas broke female swimming records. [Laurel Hubbard's] previous records before transitioning in 1998 were a 135 kg snatch and 170 kg clean & jerk, for a total of 300 kg. 21 years later in 2019, she has hit a 131 kg snatch, and 154 kg clean & jerk in competition for a total of 285 kg. That is a 5% decline in performance. When there is a 30% strength difference between males and females in Olympic weightlifting, that doesn’t bring her much closer." Also Laurel Hubbard is more than twice the age of her competitors and has won gold medals in several competitions despite these differences. The only reason we don't see complete blowouts in every single competition is due to these organizations trying to restrict entry for the competition to some testosterone threshold or some other metric.
We should also be asking, would these trans-women have had anywhere near the level of success they had if they hadn't transitioned? Would they be able to achieve the same win rates, medals, scholarships, accolades, etc as a man? The answer is clearly no, with trans-women showing increases in their relative rankings after transitioning. This seems to suggest an unfair advantage to trans-women athletes.
Trans athletics in women's sports is an absurd concept anyway. Athletes should compete and strive to be the best in a field competition where the rules apply equally to all participants. These sports organizations can keep trying to come up with whatever arbitrary criteria to try to limit or even out the playing field for an extremely tiny slice of the population (whether it's at least X years of HRT therapy, or testosterone levels in the blood or some other measure or mixture of measurements) but what this does is highlight the difference between cis-women and trans-women. In the event they apply restrictions such as testosterone levels in blood evenly, now they may discriminate against actual cis-women and are barr the cis-women who may potentially be the best in the world. This happened in track-and-field, where Caster Semenya, a biological female with naturally high testosterone, is no longer allowed to compete unless she somehow brings her testosterone levels down. Congratulations, these organizations have now barred actual biological women from competing in the name of fairness, and the competition is entirely worse as a result. Edit: @Tanista pointed out Semenya is likely intersex so I have removed this example from my argument since intersex is another topic of discussion entirely. There are examples of other genetic anomalies such as Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia that impact XX chromosome individuals which result in higher testosterone levels, so I think my general point about changing the competition criteria to something beyond if someone is a woman stands. Which begs the question, what is a woman? You can come up with measurements of tens or hundreds of different factors and try to restrict the subset of trans athletes that are allowed to compete against women to create a measurement such that the trans athletes are winning at the same rate as the women but will the end result even be a valid competition that people will care about and support?
At this point, the criteria for participation in women's sports is no longer whether the participant is a woman or not. I doubt these organizations wouldn't let a cis-man who met the arbitrary requirements for trans-athletes compete. Female sports is a discriminatory competition. You don't allow cis-men to compete in women's sports even with a self-imposed handicap because men are not women. So this argument really should boil down to are trans-women actually women and that is a debate that is still ongoing. I believe the whole conversation about trans-women in women's sports has been a huge negative to the movement in support of rights for trans people, and if you wanted to strategically raise public support for trans people, you would concede this point and argue for trans people on other grounds. Since the debate is ongoing, society shouldn't venture into the unknown and allow trans-women into women's sports, they should take the road of precaution and exclude them instead.
By the way, nothing is stopping trans-women from competing in men's sports. I am not particularly saddened if a categorically tiny percentage of the population like trans-women are not allowed to compete in women's sports because they are still allowed to compete in men's sports (as men's sports is just regular sports, it's just that women don't compete in them because they can't win). Trans-women can't win versus cis-men? That's too bad, but it's not like short people are regularly beating tall people in basketball, or people with no legs are winning versus people with legs in a race. Also, disabled people actually do have their own leagues and competitions so if trans people really wanted a fair arena of competition they should just have a trans-people-only competition. The trans athlete population is too small? Disabled people face the same restriction but you don't hear them complaining about the small size and scope of their competition, because they realize and accept they are a separate distinct category from people without disabilities. Similarly, trans women are a categorically different group from women.
Just to re-iterate the issues I have with your line of thinking, I'm going to apply your logic to disabled people to show why that sort of thinking is flawed. Where are the t-tests showing that non-disabled people are advantaged over disabled people? Guess you can't conclude someone with all their limbs would have an advantage over someone missing an arm or a leg without some statistical evidence. Now, this should sound like an absurd conclusion, because intuitively and empirically you know that someone with all their limbs should be advantaged over someone who isn't absent of any statistical backing. If I wanted to convince you that there is no difference, the burden of proof is on me to provide that evidence, not on you to bother with the leg work of gathering data, doing the actual analysis, and then presenting it to me to convince me that I'm wrong.
We have separated competition by gender for a reason. We even see gender separations in things like e-sports (one could argue e-sports does have a physical factor but let's just assume there isn't one for now), chess, and other competitions so the physical/biological differences are not the sole factor of consideration. Whether or not trans-women should compete in women's sports is not just about the physical advantages but also the cultural aspect of allowing trans-women in women's spaces in highly intimate settings such as locker and shower rooms. Other people have addressed this point already so I'm not going to dive deeper on this one.
Isn't Semenya's specific intersex condition one that only affects males? She would be a case of "treated as a woman but actually male" that all of trans activism hinges on.
You're right, I haven't done my research here properly. I wrongly assumed she was a genetical outlier (which she is, but for different reasons than I thought).
But if Semenya is categorically trans-women then that would serve as a point of example of extreme outliers. Hard to say if Semenya can be considered a trans-women though, it seems intersex is a more appropriate description which is a separate category from trans-women. Goes to show there is some space for nuance outside just the trans-women vs women discussion. Regardless I'm going to remove it from the overall argument since it was built on false premises.
What's interesting is that this fact wasn't mentioned in any article I came across mentioning Semenya and I had to specifically search for it after you pointed this out.
I thought she was a biological woman too until very recently. It seems to be a widespread - a cynic would say deliberately so* - misconception.
Sure. My point is that Semenya is the closest thing to a case of "we treat them like a woman despite being biologically male" (I think a lot of people might still want to refer to them with "her" despite knowing she has a male DSD) and that's what the entire trans movement hangs on. And why they appropriate intersex people as the thin end of their wedge.
* After all, Semenya has been in a PR and legal battle to compete.
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I know this isn't actually the point you're making, but funnily enough the world record for completing a marathon in a wheelchair is more than forty minutes faster than completing it on foot. The ability to passively gain momentum by rolling down slopes rather than running makes a big difference.
That is interesting, probably wasn't the best example I could've used then. Actually, I do remember reading an article or watching a video about how athletes with prosthetic legs can have an advantage over regular runners due to the design of the prosthetic leg reducing the amount of physical effort to move a certain distance and increasing the rebound from the springiness on the leg portion. My post was getting a bit long by this point though and this is beside the point so I just left it out.
If it was an uphill race they would be very likely to lose though.
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This is just incoherent, and I can't fully tell which parts of my disagreement comes from my values, my understanding of the factual situation, or only my ability to perform gradeschool/undergraduate math. By my best guesses:
For pure math:
0.2% is not 50x smaller than the baseline, it is 500x smaller. You've stuck with 50x throughout the rest of the comment, so maybe it was just a typo for 2%? I honestly can't tell, because 0.2% is in the neighborhood of Canadian Census data, while 2% is within the range of other reports.EDIT: Fixed, thanks.For factual disagreements:
49x (or499x?)overperformance by trans athletes as "not the most extreme outlier". For an analogous situation, I'd say that Finland outperforms China at producing elite athletes, because it has 100x the Olympic medalists per capita. A fair application of your argument would say that China has twice the medals therefore it outperforms Finland.You're right, when I was googling I first got the 2% number for trans identification among teens and thought 50x, but that includes non-binary. The overall percent of trans women is more like .2%. So yes, it should have been 500x throughout, meaning my argument is an order of magnitude stronger than I was saying.
(other numbers say maybe it's more like .4, so 250x smaller instead of 500x. Proportionally not a big change to the argument either way since we're talking about number of standard deviations, I don't think the difference between 500x vs 250x population size adds another standard deviation to the outliers)
So I am kind of moving fast and combining two ideas there. As I said, I'd expect the variance to be smaller because the population is more homogeneous. But more importantly, the smaller population means the range covered by the outliers in either direction is much smaller, which is the central argument I'm making about how good athletes from a population are vs. the average member of that population.
This is a great analogy.
Should Finland and China have to compete in different leagues, because Finish athletes are just so superior to Chinese athletes that it's unfair for them to compete against each other?
Well, given that China beats Finland the majority of the time, it seems really weird to say Finland has a huge advantage over China.
Again, per capita athletes is not a meaningful measure to this conversation. We're not pitting the entire cis population against the entire trans population to see who makes the most athletes.
What matters is the actual trans athletes vs the actual cis athletes. They are the ones that we care about having a fair competition between.
It doesn't matter if China needs a billion people to produce athletes good enough to compete against the athletes Finland can produce with only 5 million people. As long as the actual athletes in the competition are evenly matched, it makes sense for them to compete against each other.
Same here. Even if it takes a population of a million cis women to throw a set of athletes who are equivalent to what a population 2,000 trans women can produce, who cares? Since that is the actual ratio in the populations, if we end up with a set of athletes from the two populations who are on equal footing and can compete fairly against each other, then there's no reason not to let them compete.
You do dismiss (hypothetical) 499x overperformance by trans athletes as irrelevant? I thought my interpretation was absurd and expected a rebuttal, not agreement. I'm honestly not sure where to go from here.
I spent a long time explaining why the operational definition I want to use is what actual matters to athletes and fans on the ground and is therefore the best metric to use. I spent a lot of time examining your analogy to the olympics and pointing out why it supports my position.
You could, you know, explain your metric in more detail, and argue for why it's better, if you believe it is.
Remember, the issue at stake here is not 'which population is innately better at sports' but rather 'should trans women be allowed to play in women's sports leagues'.
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Reports (so far):
Hey! I use lots of drugs when it comes to my walls of texts, if my ADHD meds count. It's not a crime.
This is almost certainly not ChatGPT either, it's not remotely as good at making isolated claims for rigor.
Logical incoherence isn't a violation of the rules by itself, even if paired with activism, and that's a claim I'm utterly disinterested in investigating unless someone has an automated theorem prover that's great with natural language. As far as I can tell, this argument is coherent. It's empirically terrible, and an exercise in demanding that you have to be logically compelled to believe something unpalatable instead of simply summing up the evidence, but that's not the same thing.
Feel free to make a counterargument. So far no one's got past misunderstanding the math or naked incredulity.
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This sounds like it's just a matter of time. The base rate of trans is low.
It feels like talking to someone that never wears a seatbelt in a car. They haven't died. They insist they are safe. They were even in some fender benders and came out fine. They also say they drive more carefully than people that wear seatbelts.
Is it safe for them to not wear a seatbelt? They are standing right in front of you, it's hard to deny that they are still alive and fine.
My dad was like this for a long time, I don't think we ever convinced him. At some point he got a ticket from a cop for not wearing a seatbelt and that seems to have worked. I guess that part of the analogy doesn't translate very well.
I’m not 100% sure I follow, but I think that analogy relies on the conditional probability. As in, the level of evidence required to convince your seat belt denier is really likely to remove him from the pool of people you can ask.
If trans woman athletes have, as might be expected, a massive advantage over their AFAB peers—that’s not going to remove @guesswho from the pool of observers. It might result in bans, in the collapse of women’s sports as a meaningful carve out, but then we’d be talking about those. The absence of this evidence is, then, evidence of absence.
Or are you saying those just haven’t happened yet due to low sampling, and in ten years, we will be attending the funeral? I guess that makes sense.
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I do not understand what your analogy is referring to here.
The same is true of the person that has not died in a car accident from never wearing a seat belt.
No Seatbelt person argues 1 they drive more carefully cuz they don't wear a seatbelt and 2 they drive less because of a fear of car accidents.
These are magnitudinal changes. Its unclear if the magnitudes are great enough to outweigh the very obvious base effect. Your chances to observe how big the magnitudes are is going to be screwed, because the rate of deadly car accidents and superstar athletes is very low to begin with.
The basic problem is how do you know that a very very low probability event has increased in probability. In my case I'm talking about a rare car accident being more deadly as a result of not wearing a seatbelt. In your case we are talking about a rare superstar female athlete being better at their sport from their former time as a male.
It feels a bit like a pascal mugging.
In both cases it feels like its impossible to prove the argument wrong. If there was a specific mtf trans person that went on to dominate their sport you could rightly point out that its rare for anyone to dominate a sport, and that this is just a single anecdote. If there was a specific car accident that killed someone who wasn't wearing a seat belt wearer then the no seat belt wearer could come up with a litany of excuses as well, super rare circumstances, it might have killed them even if they had worn the seatbelt, etc etc.
At some point in the case of super rare events it feels useful to a fall back to logic and physical reality. We mostly know the physics of car accidents, and wearing a seatbelt makes you safer. I acknowledge that due to selection effects it may be the case that the average no-seatbelt wearer might not actually be in any more danger than the average seatbelt wearer. I still advise you to wear a seatbelt in the car. We mostly know the biology of male and female bodies, and having a male body gives you inherent physical advantages. I acknowledge that due to selection effects it may be the case that the average mtf trans person might not actually have any advantages over the average woman. I still advise we not allow them in sports.
Does my argument about seatbelts convince you that people who don't wear a seat belt are just as safe? Probably it doesn't. But I do feel that the structure of the argument can lead to believing a lot of absurd things. I actually know of some cases where this type of argument has convinced me. Related to cars, but Child Safety seats lead to fewer living kids. Car accidents with kids are super rare, so child safety seats don't save that many kids, but the inconvenience of such seats in most cars leads to a lot of people not having third kids. The result is unintuitive and a bit absurd, if you don't think so then did you oppose child safety seat laws before learning about it? I'm a pretty strict libertarian and even I wouldn't have bothered to oppose child safety seat laws.
Then whats my problem with your argument when I buy it in a different context? I do feel, quite strongly, that the burden of proof rests firmly on the side of those trying to get us to believe absurd and unintuitive things. On the child safety seat thing, I still put my own children in child safety seats, and would do so even if the law did not mandate it. Logic and physics win out over statistics and reality.
But I'm not talking about a super rare event?
Trans athletes exist. More than enough to do a statistical analysis on.
In sports that are competitions between two people, the average win rate must but 50%. Do trans athletes in those competitions win statistically more than 50% of the time?
In swim meets with 2 trans and 48 cis competitors, we would expect the trans athletes to place in the top 5 ~20% of the time. Do they place that often, or more, or less?
In women's baseball, what's the average RBI of cis vs trans hitters? What's the spread?
Etc. None of this is low probability stuff, it's normal sports records of the type you could see at any moment when you turn on ESPN.
I believe the probability is actually ~0.8% (48C3 / 50C5)I assume you accidentally multiplied by 100 to get a percentage, saw "0.81..." and thought that it was a probability, and then came to 20%?EDIT: Sorry, I realise I misinterpreted what you said (I thought you meant both of them placing in the top 5) - You're right, please ignore this comment.
I should have said 'a trans athlete' rather than 'the trans athletes', sorry about that.
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Oh, maybe I misunderstood your whole original argument. There is often a trans talking point that studies one elite athletes have never been done, and that is mostly true because elite athletes are rare. Which is why I was talking about a whole rareness based argument. But in that case of just studying regular athletes, yes those studies exist (and they aren't hard to find), and yes transwomen have an advantage.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref
Are you against transwomen participating in sports now? A ~10% advantage is nothing to scoff at. Though maybe I did this backwards and should have asked if you would pre-commit to changing your mind if you were shown a study with these results.
I don't blame you if the study doesn't change your mind. I think if the study had the opposite results I wouldn't change my mind either. I'd just be suspicious of the study and the industry of science. So don't interpret this as a "gotcha" post, I'm genuinely curious if this moves your needle at all.
So first of all, as I say in another reply, that's a measure of some specific atomic abilities, not of athleticism in general, which is the thing I specifically said we don't have a good measure of. I realize that's a mushy distinction and there's no real solid operational definition of 'athletic ability' beyond 'do they win more often at athletic competitions,' but that's my point... 'Do they win more often at athletic competitions' is the thing we actually care about here, and the data already exists in the form of actual results from actual competitions, so let's look at that.
But more importantly, my next sentence after that is
My argument doesn't hinge on the population average because that's not where competitive athletes are drawn from. It hinges on the positive tail of the distribution, which is why a lower population having a lower range of outliers is central to the argument.
We have a study. It shows trans people have a physical advantage. Physical abilities, much like mental abilities, are almost always a package deal. Just like knowledge tests can have g-loading, physical tests have an equivalent. It's why training camps for both baseball and American football often have athletes doing the same exercises for very different sports.
And this study doesn't move your needle at all?
If that's the case I just don't get the sense that a study would convince you, or anyone else really. Which is fine, I don't think I'd be convinced either by a study showing the opposite result. I would just find it too strange.
The study wasn't about the population average? The participants were people in the Air Force. Which is going to be a subset of generally more athletic people. But I've seen your objection elsewhere it's not the exact subset you claim matters. But then we come back to my seatbelt denier analogy. You can make the exact subset so tiny and specific that no study will ever convince you.
It looks like you are pretty busy in this thread. I'd say prioritize responding to anyone else over me. I mostly care not at all about this topic, it just happened to be at the top of the culture war thread today.
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Olympic level women's teams regularly skirmish against ordinary teenage boy teams, and still get absolutely demolished. Even the most extremely athletic females have difficulty competing against reasonably athletic teenage boys.
Ok, and? I would expect trans women also to not beat those teams, and I just explained why.
I would not expect a team of 11 fit adult males, some of whom may be currently on HRT, to get thrashed by a team of 11 fit teenaged boys.
One suspects you don't know many trans people.
But ok, we have different intuitions. If you were correct, again, there would be statistical evidence showing it. Which there's not.
No, you suspect I don't know many.
I'm tired of you refusing to engage when I criticise your arguments at length, only to retort with cheap potshots like this when convenient.
Your long response is open in another tab. I've responded to about 20 long replies in the last 6 hours, and I also have a job and stuff.
And it's not only a potshot. You'll note that I also make an empirical argument, and you're the one pretending it doesn't even exist.
If I reply to your one-sentence posts with 3-sentence replies, I don't feel bad about that use of effort. If you don't care to engage with anything other than the long effort posts, then wait till I get to it, don't snipe elsewhere around the discussion.
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I don't know why people in this particular debate are so obsessed with intuiting the answers to empirical questions. It is not the case that nobody has ever tried to measure the sport performance related effects of gender transition. Here is a BMJ meta-analysis from 2021 of 24 different studies. What do they find? Basically what you'd expect. 1-2 years on HRT decreases strength related performance pretty substantially. The study subjects retained some advantage over cis women but were significantly worse than cis men.
And trans women tended to be less strong than average cis-men even pre-transition.
Anyway I think the whole discussion is kind of dumb. Different athletes have all kinds of different advantages due to biological features. Is there some level of biological advantage at which point intra-group competition becomes unfair? Is the advantage a top trans woman has over a top cis woman larger than the advantage Michael Phelps had over his fellow Olympians? One can't help but notice that no one was interested in banning people from competing in sports due to biological advantage until the discussion was about trans women.
No, it only appears like it to you because previously there was a consensus matching the status quo, so no one talked about it.
Banning men from women's sports was accepted wisdom, and no one felt any need to disagree, until trans women came around.
You don't see anyone interested in banning teachers from murdering students - because it's already illegal. If Catholic Teachers For Murderism suddenly started arguing they should be allowed to kill students, there would certainly be a lot of disagreement, and not because they're catholic.
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Weight classes. Age classes in sports leagues for children (under-11s, under-12s and so on). Separate divisions for wheelchair-bound marathonners and on-foot marathonners.
If you think it's unfair to pit a heavyweight against a flyweight, a 17-year-old against a 10-year-old, or someone who can roll down a hill against someone who has to use their own feet like a sucker - congratulations, you understand how female athletes feel when asked to compete against male athletes.
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...
Presumably men with interest in high-level athletic competition (in the women's division, but nevertheless) would be unlikely to actively refrain from building muscle, engage in disordered eating, and/or be athletically disinclined -- which one might suppose would tend to place them more in the 'non-significant' part of the strength loss range, were they in this study population.
(Trying to apply a population level metastudy to a freakish subpopulation (high-level athletes, not transpeople) is probably a mistake, IOW)
On a personal note, I have one bicep much smaller than the other due to surgery related to a horrible accident a long time ago. With physio etc the strength difference between the two arms is indeed minimal -- but the surgeon at the time warned me that while I should make every effort to rebuild strength, the arms would probably never 'match' in terms of muscle size. This was 30 years ago, so 'LBM != strength' does not seem like a novel concept to the medical community. I wonder why the reviewers at the BMJ would not point this out to an author trying to elide the difference?
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On the contrary; plenty of people were banned from competing in sports due to biological advantage before trans women were even an issue. They were just called "men" and they were banned from women's leagues.
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That people argue this blows my mind. Do you genuinely believe that males do not have a substantial physical advantage over women, or do you genuinely believe that going on hormones for a year erases that advantage?
You dismiss the growing amount of "anecdotal evidence" of 40-to-50-year-old men suddenly "transitioning" late in life and taking up a sport and absolutely dominating professional female athletes 20 years younger than them who've been in the sport for years because... there aren't enough trans women athletes to have taken over the leaderboards in every sport, yet?
read the rest of the comment
I did, and to be perfectly honest, I found it to be a disingenuous mish-mash of conflated statistics to present an argument that you imply ("trans women aren't really better athletes than cis women") but won't commit to, just vaguely handwave at. For example:
While I don't find your "strong reasons" convincing, sure, let's suppose that the top 1% of female athletes are better than the top 1% of trans women athletes. The issue with trans women in female sports is not about how well the top 1% compete against each other, but how trans women athletes on average compete with female athletes on average.
It's not clear to me if you mean the mean for trans women athletes or trans women in general (you seem to be deliberately fuzzing it a bit here), but what do you mean by "measured it precisely"? Are you claiming we have not measured strength, speed, arm length, aerobic capacity, grip strength, or other measures of ability for trans women and women? I mean, I can Google up the studies, but I'm reluctant to do so because I don't think this is a genuine question.
You are using statistical outliers when convenient and ignoring them when not: for example, one of your arguments is that if trans women were better athletes than women, then they'd be winning all the competitions, and they're not. This completely ignores how many competitions there are, how few trans athletes there are, how relatively new policies allowing trans women to compete are, and of course, as I said, the observable reality of second-rate, aging, out-of-shape male athletes transitioning, switching to the women's league, and destroying women's records. Does that happen every time? Does every trans women reach the top of the league? No, but from what I have observed, they almost always rapidly ascend far higher and faster than any actual female athlete of similar condition and experience could.
I think you're having trouble following my argument, which is reasonable because it has a lot of steps and I don't know how well I explained it.
To clarify:
The populations I'm talking about are only all cis women and all trans women.
I am not talking about athletes as a separate populations. I'm saying that all athletes are outliers from teh two general populations I'm referring to.
My point is that, if the cis women population has more extreme outliers on athletic ability than the trans women population, then most of the cis athletes will be better than most of the trans athletes.
We have, to my knowledge, done a few studies on average performance among trans women on a few simple isolated measures and tasks (like sit-ups). We have not, to my knowledge, done measures of population variance in a way that lets us compare outliers between the groups, or have we measured athletic ability on a holistic way.
The claim is not that if trans women had an advantage, they would win every competition. The claim is that if they had an advantage, they would individually have better personal win/loss ratios (or whatever is the most relevant individual metric for a given sport) than average cis women in their league/division.
We can measure that right now, regardless of how many/few trans athletes there are.
I agree there are some anecdotes of trans women winning things. There are also anecdotes of cis women winning things, so that doesn't mean much without statistics. Nor are all anecdotes representative, that's why they're anecdotes; maybe something bad was happening in that handfull of famous cases that we want policy to avoid, but that wouldn't say much about the median case which we should be concerned with.
Golf clap for the well-played condescension, sir.
This does not follow. The female population is much larger; there will be more outliers and probably more extreme ones. That says nothing about how well the average female athlete compares to the average trans athlete. That there are a handful of exceptional female athletes who can beat most men (but not the top men) in a sport does not mean therefore that most female athletes can beat most trans women.
I don't follow this issue closely enough to collect studies, or links, but this is one of the first hits when I searched "Trans women athletes studies." (Leaving out "studies," you mostly get articles by the ACLU and various news organizations claiming that either it's been "debunked" that trans women have an athletic advantage, or it's "unknowable.") Doing a little more digging, I see quite a few studies that measured more than just sit-ups.
And there is just... empirical observation.
If a trans women competes in a bicycle race and finishes third, she's #3 and you can easily say "See, two women beat her, so on average, they aren't better." Until you find out that this trans woman is 45 years old and just started bicycling competitively four years ago. Look, I don't want to dig up all the Jesse Singhal and Graham Linehan links because you'd dismiss them as motivated cherrypickers (and Linehan certainly is) but this is happening in sport after sport. If you actually wanted to do some sort of fair study, then you would have to factor in things like age and number of years in training which would pick up what I am claiming, which is that the advantage of trans women is such that a man who was a mediocre male athlete can fairly easily become one of the top 5% "female" athletes by transitioning.
All athletes are outliers from the general population.
There's no population of athletes with normal population dynamics over their athletic ability, because they're already selected to be outliers from the general population. There won't be a normal distribution of talent among athletes, they'll look like what they are, one tail of a different normal distribution (the general population).
When I talk about outliers and extremes, I'm talking about all athletes. Not just the best ones.
And my claim isn't that most cis women athletes can beat most trans women athletes. As I said a lot, no one has bothered to report on those statistics from actual competitions, so we are in a state of total ignorance on that question.
My point is just that talking about the average for the male population tells you basically nothing about what we're actually measuring here, which is outliers from the trans women population vs outliers from the cis woman population.
Ok, lets just settle on an operational definition here.
Is it your position that a world could exist in which no trans woman ever wins a single competition ever against her cis competitors, and yet it is still also true that trans women have an unfair competitive advantage that means cis women shouldn't have to compete against them?
Because that seems to be what is implied by you citing a case where trans women do not win yet still have an unfair advantage. So is this actually compatible with how you are defining fairness here?
If so, I think that's just incredibly silly.
Maybe there's some metaphysical sense in which it is unjust that a trans woman with fewer years of training can be competitive with a cis woman with more years of training (in this hypothetical).
But what actually matters for fairness is whether every competitor in an event has a reasonable chance to win.
If cis women can go to a million events and know that they will never win anything because the top spots are always trans women shattering all their records, that sucks and is unfair to them and unfun for everyone involved.
If trans women aren't over-represented among winners and cis women can easily win in competitions with them all the time, then the sport is healthy and everyone can have fun and no one is at an unfair disadvantage.
Anything outside of that fact is irrelevant, even if it annoys you.
You're stretching the definition of "outlier." In that the average person isn't very athletic at all, sure, but I'm not just talking about Olympic competitors, I'm talking about people who participate in neighborhood soccer leagues and the like.
If you were, then you'd stop making so many handwaving motions when we talk about comparing female apples to trans apples and stop pointing at female oranges.
No, we are not in a state of total ignorance on that question.
I am not sure if your phrasing is intentionally vague or not.
Do I believe it is possible that there could exist a (singular) trans woman who never wins a single competition against her female competitors, and yet it is still also true that trans women have an unfair competitive advantage that means cis women shouldn't have to compete against them?
Yes. Of course. No one claims that all trans women will be beat all women all the time.
Do I believe it is possible that there could exist a world in which no trans women ever win a single competition against female competitors, and yet it is still also true that trans women have an unfair competitive advantage that means cis women shouldn't have to compete against them?
Well, that would seem unlikely, but it's a meaningless hypothetical since we are observably not in that world.
It's not "some metaphysical sense" if their male physiology observably lets them compete at a higher level with less effort, conditioning, and training.
So if you or I competed against women, that would be fair, since women competing against us would have a reasonable chance to win? Or do you claim you would be able to beat any woman in any athletic competition?
So you believe we could only say it's unfair for trans women to compete against women if and only if trans women win every single time?
Trans women are over-represented among winners now. And women are not having fun because they're competing against men who can and have injured them (in contact sports) and are taking monetary prizes from them.
Trying to cast this as "Oh, you're just annoyed by trans women" doesn't work when you are studiously ignoring the facts you reference.
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About 57% of highschool students play sports. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/statistics-on-school-sports-how-many-students-play-sports-which-sports-do-they-play/2021/07
Why do you insist athletes in general are a stastical outlier? I don't think anyone understood you were arguing this because it's really hard to realize someone is arguing that a behavior the majority of people do is an outlier.
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People aren’t so concerned about the means and medians, they care about the outliers. The championships denied, the scholarships lost, but for a male competing against females.
In some contact sports there are also concerns about safety.
Oh, and they don’t want their daughters showering with naked males.
???
Dd you read the whole comment? The outliers being what matters was my point.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.
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Part of the problem is that the most visible people are the crazy extremely online types. Is Sam Brinton looking like such a great role model for nonbinary representation now? But these are the cases that most people hear about, because they get the most publicity.
And the crazy extremely online types are the ones with the most niche, extreme, and bizarre demands, and are not representative of the majority of trans people. But because nobody is willing to stand up and say "Yeah, this person is crazy extremely online, please ignore" because that would be bigotry and transphobia and policing and all the rest of it, then they aren't challenged and the tone of the debate is then set for ordinary people that "They want to dress up like clowns and teach three year olds that they're trans and secretly give hormones to underage kids".
Rowing back on the most extreme outliers by trans groups (and before anyone jumps in with "there is no one body that speaks for all trans people", there sure are a lot of bodies calling themselves Trans This and LGBT That willing to give media interviews on every topic when asked) would do more for calming down the debate than all the scolding about "that never happens, and if it does, it's a good thing".
Sure, I used the Westboro Baptist Church as a cudgel against Christians back in the day, I know the drill.
But, you know. I was like 20 at the time and didn't really understand how to argue honestly and fairly, but that was a scummy and dishonest tactic when I used it back then. It still is now.
If the only version of Christianity that anyone not a Christian ever encountered was the Westboro bunch going around, then hell yeah I'd be "they're not representative and in fact here's a list of how they're heretics in faith, doctrine, and discipline". I do that anyway for other arguments over historic and global Christianity.
But if every Christian said "Well, it's unfortunate that the extremists get all the publicity, but if we say anything about them then non-Christians will just use that as anti-Christian propaganda so we have to back them up" - then would you really be surprised that non-Christians got their views of Christianity from the crazy people? Would you not expect other Christians to explain why the Westboro bunch were not representative? Would you not take from their silence that maybe the Westboro lot were in fact closer to how Christians believed?
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But other Christians are willing to say "the Westboro Baptist Church is crazy and we don't believe what they are saying is true". This doesn't happen for trans issues.
Would you know if it does happen? How much time do you spend hanging out with trans activists, how sure are you that your media channels would promote examples of them being reasonable and moderate to your attention? Our media isn't designed for highlighting people being moderate and reasonable in full generality, let alone on adversarial culture war issues.
As someone who does hang out in those spaces some of the time, I can say that there is nothing like consensus among the trans community and trans activists on most of this stuff, denouncing others for making the cause look bad and being extreme/cringe is common, etc. It is true that this happens more within those like-minded spaces than in press releases, I suppose; in the middle of the culture war battle with bills on the ballot in many states, there is a lot of circling the wagons and presenting a unified front. I think Christians had a much more secure position from which to denounce their own members, and used it, which is good. But I don't think it's as completely one-sided as you may think.
Every mainstream Christian was opposed to the WBC, or near enough, and the ones who remember they exist still are. Most of their reasons for opposing them didn’t boil down to ‘they’re making us look bad’.
Can you demonstrate leaders of pro-trans groups, or simply prominent individuals within the community, opposing the fringe weirdos for reasons other than ‘making us look bad’?
WBC wasn't just making Christians look bad, they were actively harassing people and making their lives worse.
I expect I could find trans leaders denouncing, like, actual pedophiles who claim to be trans, or whatever, for that harm.
I don't think it's common for Christian leaders to denounce other Christians merely for being annoying or having bad opinions, which I think (?) is what we're talking about here?
But anyway, this is a bit vague. I'm going to be busy the rest of the week, but if you have a specific trans analogue to WBC you want to ask about ,I can see if I have time to look around.
Ok. What trans leaders have denounced child drag shows on the grounds of ‘kids don’t need to be seeing that’? I genuinely don’t know of any.
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So if mainstream Christians tolerated and supported Westboro in public and refrained from criticizing them, you'd totally give them a pass as long as someone told you that-- trust me bro-- they get an ambiguous amount of pushback somewhere in private that nobody knows about?
I doubt that very much.
If trans activists aren't pushing back at the crazies anywhere that anyone else can hear them, then there's absolutely no reason to exepct anyone else to care. Mumbling about how the media works is just empty excuse-making for the deafening silence.
I can avow that when I was a crabby internet atheist in my teens/20s, I was not exposed to whichever Christians were disavowing the WBC. 'Why won't Christians denounce the WBC' was a big Atheist talking point for years on end.
If you want to have a standard of 'the denouncements have to be big and publicized enough that their opponents hear them and are convinced', then no, Christians didn't meet that standard back then.
I was in that trench, too. I don't share your view of that period. Plenty of Christians condemned WBC, and this was casually disregarded as inauthentic or meaningless because we perceived very little daylight between WBC's stance on homosexuality versus Christianity on the whole. "WBC is disgusting, but at least they're honest" was the kind of thing you'd read (or write yourself) in a lot of those spaces.
Worth remembering that WBC was paid attention to primarily for its protesting of soldiers' funerals - an act that I'm sure you can easily imagine pisses off people of with all sorts of different politics and faiths, including Christians who were against gay marriage! The image of some Jesus-loving Good Ol' Boy passively accepting Phelps and co picketing his dead son's funeral is a bit hard to swallow.
And since we're comparing notes on history - I don't know why anybody should go hunting for the unicorns of consensus-bucking trans spaces when a lot of us here have spent the last 10 years watching their political movement steamroll nearly every forum and platform we used to be part of, and got to see first-hand how these spaces got captured, converted, and degraded. I am not lacking examples of what I see as the default MO of trans and trans-supportive spaces. If somebody wants to show me a trans space that goes against a lot of the current progressive orthodoxies, I'll happily peek at it. But then we will be clear that the thing making their lives harder isn't right-wing bigotry, but a prog-aligned media that doesn't consider them worthy of attention. I think you have a good point that perhaps they are reluctant to criticize their messengers out of fear that it may result in wave of Red Traditionalism crashing over them after tampering with the barricades. But I think if you're already subscribing to that dynamic on anything, it's too late. You're practically a foot soldier, whether you're enthusiastic about it or not.
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Gosh if only someone had come along back then and posted a vague "trust me bro" anecdote about Christians ambiguously denouncing the WBC behind closed doors. That totally would have been a cogent and meaningful response to that particular atheist talking point... right?
I like how you try to make this standard sound unreasonable. Like if everyone were reasonable they'd just ignore the entire public face of the trans activist movement and instead base their perception on your little post about how you totally saw them denounce their crazies in private once.
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Christians saying that the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't speak for them are blatantly obvious about it almost every time it comes up at all. There's no need for me to hang out at a church or a Christian subreddit in order to find out about Christians disclaiming any association with the Westboro Baptists. Why would I have to do something like that for trans activists?
While the media likes to promote controversy, that doesn't explain it. The media reports on the Westboro Baptist Church to stir controversy, but the media also shows Christians calling them a bunch of homophobic nuts. The media doesn't report on the WBC uncritically, nor does the media treat them as just another pressure group, no different from someone calling for farm subsidies.
The media does not behave this way for trans activists. Reasonable trans activists don't appear in the media calling extremist activists nuts, and the extremist activists are treated as perfectly normal, not objects for derision like the WBC.
There's a big difference between the media signal-boosting someone for controversy and signal-boosting someone out of sympathy.
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I've listened in IRL on the clique of trannies, non-binaries, and tranny-hags that infested a local bar's drop-in RPG night. A 3-minute sample got them calling some neighbor of theirs a disgusting bigot, and something to do with freeing palestine. Their games are also fuckawful. It drove all the non-terrible players to come on a different night.
Not exactly damning airtight evidence, just funny that I walk in on them right at that point. They...failed to win me over.
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I think there are gender-heavy assumptions that could square that particular circle. At the trivial level, there's a bit of a motte-and-bailey where sometimes we're talking about simply having XY chromosomes, having gone through a male puberty, and having fully reached male adulthood before transition, which can have significantly different effects; there are also difference traits needed for different sports.
Some of them are wronger (eg, comparing the height of someone who transitioned at 22 to someone who started transition at 12) than others (eg, Olympic-level shooting sports strongly suggests women have comparable or better attributes for some trials), but even the wrong ones are questions of fact, rather than incoherent positions. Some of them are facts that I don't even know -- how does the average strength or resilience of someone with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome compare, or someone who never went through male puberty?
Now, there's a stronger criticism that this is a motte-and-bailey -- your link goes to an ACLU page that links to an NCAA page that is broken, but it's supposed to be based around this policy, which says transfem players "may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment", citing this study. But the study only finds that :
Even this is still compatible with a gender binary, if one different than what you'd accept of understand. (Arguably, it demands it; there's actually a lot of internal conflict between the transmedical side and the enby-heavy sides of the trans movement, but it's hard to find that discussed in external-facing communication.) It's just really misleading.
Largely, because the acceptable concerns have either (or both) solutions that are acceptable to the public mores of the progressive movement and especially deBoer's place in it, and because the things that those solutions demand don't crush the goals of the transgender movement. The former is definitely a larger controlling aspect -- there are definitely places where uncertainty about a specific procedure's efficacy is unacceptable, as Trace has found out -- but it's not like this is new or specific to this particular movement.
Bathrooms and changing rooms can't be discussed because the only solution that would solve the proposed threats would cut off access to much of the public sphere; trans rapists and sex offenders because 'everybody' knows that it's really about the Chinese Cardiology over the specific policy questions.
To be fair, naming days for stupid things is what people offer instead of policy behaviors; this is a funny factoid rather than a meaningful counter.
That's true, but it's probably a better argument against deBoer's writing qualities in general (I will again bring up that time he had a psychotic break and fasely accused someone of sexual assault). I've probably gotten a sanewashed version of multiplicity compared to the TikTok variant, but compared SSC. Which isn't to say that the DID fandom is right or useful, just that deBoer's critic doesn't even make sense within its own framework (eg, TikTok DID revolves around everyone having had intense childhood trauma, also that was controversial as a claim for even classic-DID, beyond the extent classic-DID was controversial itself).
Specifically, the bill would require judges to consider it, and has been vetoed. Judges may still do so as a matter of policy.
I get that this isn't a space with a lot of good parallels, but Neary's behavior was a lot worse in terms of informed consent. Neary's victims not only did not know they'd be sterilized before they went into the surgical rooms, but in at least a couple cases the man didn't even tell them what parts he'd removed (or told them incorrectly). We don't have too much detail about how his process worked given all the magically disappearing records, but looking through the patient interviews in the Lourdes report point toward bringing patients in for normal processes or minor surgery and then performing a hysterectomy as an 'emergency' due to complications, only discovering that they've had a supposed life-threatening experience after they've had the surgery completed.
Even if we are to presume that medical professionals are downplaying both the decision and overstating the ramifications for refusal/detransition, these are things happening in daylight; both adult and teenage patients can and should examine statements from medical professionals. I expect that this doesn't have a huge impact on the perspectives of detransitioners, and it doesn't cleave away regulation as an acceptable case, but it really does have an impact on what policy recommendations are available.
I agree that I was being a bit hyperbolic comparing detransitioners to Neary's victims, and obviously there's a world of difference between "agreeing to be sterilised (perhaps when you don't really appreciate the magnitude of this decision) and later coming to regret it" and "being involuntarily sterilised without your consent or knowledge".
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The trans issue is not as controversial or divisive as he's making it out to be. I don't think the opposition is as strong as he imagines it to be or that people are anti-trans in his comments. He gets way more pushback about Zionism and Israel than he does about trans. If he made a post advocating for a wealth tax or higher income taxes, again i'm sure he'd get way more pushback than the trans issues. The trans issue comes down to sports and if children can consent to irreversible medical procedures. Otherwise, most people do not care that much, including even conservatives and rightists. His argument about trans people taking hormones being similar or analogous to men who take steroids to attain some idealization of masculinity, is actually shared by libertarians and some on the right . I don't even see where the disagreement is that some people do not feel like their sex matches with their gender or wish to have certain reasonable provisions made.
I think you're going to find more areas in conflict than that. You're right in some libertarians and a few on the right willing to go for full morphological freedom, but even within that framework there's an absolute abomination of serious legal and financial questions on things like who can (must) pay for things, or what extent the government can (should) enforce politeness on these matters in certain (or all) spheres.
But there's also a lot of conservatives who oppose it at more fundamental levels. A lot of people, not all social conservatives, see legal or social recognition of anything less than magical girl transformations as demanding they deny reality. And social conservatives often see trivial behaviors from trans people as perverse. I'd like to think that they'd get not care as much without the obvious points of contention, since there was a time like that. I'm not convinced that it's anything more than just awareness, though, and that cat's not going back in that bag.
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I think my beliefs are pretty typical in the sense that I really only care a trans issues in three situations: rape prevention, minor transition, and sports scholarships.
As a woman of middling size, I’m absolutely opposed to allowing males access to women’s restrooms, changing rooms, and most especially shelters. It’s not about trans people per se, but about skeevy men using a trans pretense to gain access to a place where women are undressed and at their most vulnerable. This is simply enabling bad things as the social solution to the problem is now broken — that solution being the rest of society not allowing males into women’s spaces. Now, until this person gets caught doing something (by which point it will be too late) no one is allowed to object.
Minor transition has been covered to death. Suffice it to say my opposition rests on two ideas: social contagion and kids’ innate desire to please adults. Kids have trouble quitting activities their parents are proud of them for. How hard is it going to be, after months of their trans phase being stunning and brave, for a 12-15 year old kid to say they aren’t into it anymore?
Sports, for the most part isn’t an issue, except when it comes to NCAA scholarships. Pro leagues have been cesspits of PEDs for decades, and I think only the naive don’t know that. Duffer leagues where people just play for fun don’t matter much either. The issue for me is scholarships, simply because so many working class women rely upon those scholarships to get into college. Without access to those scholarships, a lot of those women simply won’t go, or will go to community college or trade schools.
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I think this point bears highlighting. A lot of the "believe the science" message seems to hinge on the belief that scientists, doctors and other highly credentialed professionals are, within their sphere of expertise, able to ignore misaligned incentives and politics that history and experience has shown time and time and time and time again are universal. The original scientific method created an adversarial system to counteract these human failings, to align the incentives with bold truth finding. But nowadays coordination at the size of our current scientific institutions has misaligned the incentives again, to put them in line with affirming the consensus and the political class.
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