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PaperclipPerfector  5d ago (text post)   25672 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 19, 2026

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https://www.newsweek.com/video-appears-to-show-new-ice-shooting-in-minneapolis-11411971

Ice shooting round 2 has kicked off. Numerous rumors already flying around but will be a bit before we have facts I imagine.

EDIT: I've been asked to add some relevant points, I'll say: this comment has links to various angles: https://www.themotte.org/post/3493/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/405295?context=8#context This comment mentions the "Sig misfire" angle that I've seen a bit: https://www.themotte.org/post/3493/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/405451?context=8#context

Walz has activatedthe national guard: https://x.com/MnDPS_DPS/status/2012614253090619619 The NBA postponed the Minnesota/Golden State game tonight.

The video looks BAAAAD. Would like to see resident Trump supporters explain this one.

How it looks? We're way beyond that now. Competing narratives will emerge. Each side will believe it alone possesses the truth. I think the people below debating the facts of the case as informed by this frame of that video or whatever are wasting their time. The truth is not relevant.

Do you know what time it is? The left has threatened to prosecute those who have participated in the current administration, yes? Is this an environment conducive to a peaceful transition of power? Is it surprising to a student of history that in an environment as factional as ours that faction-affiliated armed groups (Antifa, ICE) have emerged? Are you shocked that each faction won't prosecute its loyal enforcers?

The progression we're now observing is an almost comically central example of how republics die. Maybe there will n an election in 2028. Maybe there won't be. No matter who wins, violence will escalate further. Cycles of retribution will turn. At some point soon, somebody's going to cross a Rubicon.

I am, I guess, a Trump supporter, in that I simply take for granted that the process of stasis has proceeded to the point of being irreversible and prefer a MAGA Caesar to an expertocrat one quite strongly. Perfectly understandable, given the way that the expertocrats treated me and mine.

But the ICE claim is that he was pulling a gun on them. This is, in the understanding of every police force ever, a perfectly normal and legitimate reason to use lethal force. We have some evidence for this claim even if it's hard to see- they recovered a gun(I doubt they're capable of planting a gun on someone while being observed- this sounds legitimately very hard) from him, there was a shot preceding ICE opening fire, and the ICE agents seem to be reacting as if it was a good shoot, not in a 'dude, what the hell' way. None of these datapoints are dispositive in themselves, but all of them point in the same direction.

But the ICE claim is that he was pulling a gun on them.

Are they actually claiming that? This was conspicuously absent in the initial statement, even though one would expect it to be there.

Resident partisan hack checking in (well sort of). I am making this comment in the spirit of “expressing a worldview” of “resident Trump supporters” as requested rather than to argue the point per se. But I do earnestly hold the following beliefs.

We (the right) now clearly understand that the purpose of this sort of protest is to create violent situations with “bad optics” for ICE or whatever other group. The protestors (from “our” point of view) want violence and want shootings, because they perceive this as a win condition.

We’re quite simply not going to give them the win anymore. They want death and violence, and are actively going out of their way to create situations that can cause escalation. That makes them, in my opinion which is shared by others with similar worldviews, the baddies. This guy was being a baddy, played a stupid game, and won a stupid prize.

I honestly haven’t watched the video and don’t care. We consider the instant replay era over. It really has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether illegal immigrants should be deported.

That is the main reason these protests are not really succeeding. The only reason these situations are happening is because of the protestors (who we really consider at this point, insurrectionists who are committing federal crimes). “ICE needs to stop deporting illegal immigrants from Minnesota because some protestors are getting hurt.” There is literally zero logic to this statement.

We also don’t consider them legitimate protestors. They don’t have a “right” to impede federal law enforcement from executing the legal and popular will simply because they lost an election in which they were fairly represented.

It was probably a good shoot if you slow it down to 10k frames per second. Like I said, we honestly don’t know or care.

That is the view of (at least my slice of) the overly online right currently.

The protestors (from “our” point of view) want violence and want shootings, because they perceive this as a win condition. We’re quite simply not going to give them the win anymore.

Is this a typo? ICE just killed a man. Seems like, if that's what they want, then you did in, fact, just give it to them.

"ICE needs to stop deporting illegal immigrants from Minnesota because some protestors are getting hurt"

No I don't think that's really the logic at all. The logic is that they perceive some injustice and protesting is the only tool in many of these people's toolbox.

Are actively going out of their way to create situations that can cause escalation. That makes them, in my opinion which is shared by others with similar worldviews, the baddies

Note that you will not hear the right say this about Kyle Rittenhouse, Proud Boys, the guys who killed Ahmaud Arbery, George Zimmerman, the deploymentment of national guard units for transparently political purposes, or any of Trump's intentionally inflammatory rhetoric over the last decade.

Thanks for the additional insight on the MAGA-right. It mostly demonstrates an inability to model the worldview of your opponents ("they want death and violence" lol), and a lack of objective standards for conduct.

I think that the question of whether the protests are succeeding will not really be answered until the results of this year and 2028's elections come in.

The protests are not stopping deportations. However, whether or not these shootings were justified, the optics are bad - and that may have important political consequences which might possibly stop deportations a couple of years from now.

Also, a minor note about:

The protestors (from “our” point of view) want violence and want shootings, because they perceive this as a win condition.

I agree that for the protestors this is a good strategy. If law enforcement full-out massacres a dozen or two protestors in a big shooting, this might be one of the best things that could possibly happen "for the cause" of the protestors. However, I don't think that any more than a tiny handful of protestors are actually driven by a desire to pursue this strategy. Some of the organizers might be, but even then I think it's a very rare motivation. I think most of them are genuinely just trying to interfere with ICE, to impede ICE activities. But they are in part following, because it is easier to do what has been done before, the well-worn tracks of decades of leftist tactics - and those tactics have evolved in part in order to create sympathetic media footage in which leftists have violence used against them.

That makes them, in my opinion which is shared by others with similar worldviews, the baddies. This guy was being a baddy, played a stupid game, and won a stupid prize.

Ok now consider if appealing to only people with the exact same worldview as you, up to just straight up killing people without care because they're a "baddie" in your eyes is going to be a great strategy for 2026 and 2028 elections.

I had a similar response. It’s hard to see anything in the video. But even if the officer technically made a mistake, there was enough confusion there (due to the hysterical protesters) that I believe he is blameless.

There is no situation where Trump admin should give a single inch on this. No situation where the man should be subject to the hostile MN government apparatus.

Federal agents cannot be prosecuted by the state for actions that occur during their duties. They can only be prosecuted at the federal level. He'll be fine, or at least safe from the MN government apparatus.

Federal agents cannot be prosecuted by the state for actions that occur during their duties.

Just out of curiosity, does that include traffic violations? (E. g., an ICE agent going through a red light at 60 mph in a 25 mph zone.)

understand that the purpose of this sort of protest is bad optics

Yeah, that's politics. Why are you surprised ? The adversary baits you, but do you need to bite ? The protests are getting more heated, because Trump is biting onto the bait.

The US is maximally polarized, but it has been for a while. The other party does everything it can to block their adversary. It's Mitch blocking Garland's confirmation. It's red governors banning blue city policies. It's business as usual.

In Canada, the farmers protests were clearly a conservative bait that Trudeau bit into, and it caused his downfall. The farmer's protest is another example of a political torpedo that would have brought Modi down in India. He avoided a few baits, primary among them was Sikhs replacing the Indian flag on the red fort. But no. No anti-protest rubber guns, no tear gas, nothing. He held his nerve, and IMO, it saved his govt. He eventually reformed the bill to involve state-by-state adoption and had to take an L. But, it could have been worse.

Look, as a kid, when I made fun of my sibling, he'd eventually snap and break something. I'd get punished for instigating, but he'd get a bigger punishment for giving in and breaking something (I promise we are very tight now, and I believe I have been a good brother on the balance). Point is, it doesn't matter what the bait is. The individual is still responsible for how they respond. Humans have an intuitive smell for this. Govts, laws or individuals, it doesn't matter. Biting onto to bait makes you a sucker. You may call them reasons, but the people will always view them as excuses.

You understand this thing where someone does something wrong which is ignored by authorities, then the person wronged responds, and then is punished by said authorities, is generally considered a failure mode, do you not?

Yeah, that's politics. Why are you surprised ? The adversary baits you, but do you need to bite ? The protests are getting more heated, because Trump is biting onto the bait.

I dont think this is true. The nature of these riots makes it impossible for ICE agents to utilize public roads without provoking violence. If ICE does anything other than a complete withdrawal, these incidents will continue to happen, and they will continue to escalate into deadly use of force scenarios. We were actually getting close to the same point in the Chicago area a few months ago, but then some backroom deal was struck with the Johnson, Pritzker, and Homan (which they will all deny happened, but clearly did) and now random people aren't tailing ICE vehicles, ICE facilities aren't under siege as CPD watches paint cans fly at officers heads, and ICE aren't picking abuelas up out of taco stands, but they are being allowed to casually pick people up from the jails even though they aren't being officially "notified" when ICE warrants pop.

Point is, it doesn't matter what the bait is. The individual is still responsible for how they respond.

See also: any sports flag for unsportsman like conduct. It's almost always the retaliation the refs notice and flag, not the instigation.

It's not about biting. It's about not backing down, because just packing up and going home is even worse then what's happening now. A surrender like that will only make the next round of protesting 10x bigger.

Trump and ICE didn't do anything in response to the protests except keep trying to do their jobs. The enemy forced this by making simply running a country impossible.

You may call them reasons, but the people will always view them as excuses.

I second this almost completely.

As soon as I heard the whistling that was going on - I mean, what are we doing?

I want ICE to deport illegals … if you want to protest that than ok but you can’t stop this - it’s what I voted for!

Unfortunately they aren’t going after the business owners so it’s mostly optics but good damn at least they’re doing something about an issue.

Let’s see if I can walk the streets at night in the cities within my lifetime like you can in Poland.

Perhaps it was unjustified, and if so, so what? Any sufficiently large scale operation will have things go wrong, especially when you have large numbers of people that are trying to harass, antagonize and violently obstruct things. Chernobyl happened, does this mean nuclear power is evil or forever forbidden? Car accidents happen and vehicular manslaughter happens, does this mean we should abandon cars? I'm not very moved by an individual incident, especially when the victim appears to have gotten into a violent confrontation with ICE, resisting arrest, while carrying a gun, that's Darwin Award territory.

My reaction would be, let's investigate this properly and perhaps prosecute the agents involved. But this should in no way cause us to pause ICE operations and is in fact a very good reason for the media to stop agitpropping retarded leftists into getting into violent confrontations with ICE.

Edit: For the record, after reviewing all the angles, I can say that the shooting appears to be unjustified. I don't think he reached for his weapon and I don't think it accidentally discharged, I think an ICE agent just basically executed him by shooting him in the back then shooting him a few more times when he attempted to stand. That said, this is an extremely predictable outcome of having a gun in your waistband when choosing to physically confront ICE and resist arrest.

Chernobyl happened, does this mean nuclear power is evil or forever forbidden?

No, but we recognized that there is such a thing as a nuclear plant that's been built too haphazardly. Just like Trump's expansion of ICE.

Note, ICE was still deporting about 60% of the current amount of people during Biden's terms. They mostly dressed in official clothing (vs plain clothes), avoided masks and avoided overt display of large weapons. the criticisms of ICE have to do with the 2025 avatar of it. Not the institution that existed before.

Car accidents happen and vehicular manslaughter happens

To be fair, I am very anti-car, pro-transit and pro self-driving cars. I say this begrudgingly, because I love engineering cars and consider them the pinnacle of late-20th century art. But, fast cars should be driven on the track, not the road. Until recently, banning cars was impractical. But the US has been extremely reckless in tolerating a 3-4x higher automobile death rate than other developed nations.

while carrying a gun

What's wrong with carrying a gun in a public place in Minnesota ? Isn't are American LEO not trained to handle situations with gun-owners peacefully ?

What's wrong with carrying a gun in a public place in Minnesota ? Isn't are American LEO not trained to handle situations with gun-owners peacefully ?

Peaceful gun owners, yes. Not ones who enter into a rugby scrum with officers.

Carrying a gun while peacefully protesting is something that American LEOs are generally trained to deal with, because outside of DC and NYC it is legal and at least common enough to need training for. Carrying a gun while interrupting police operations is a very serious crime that they are trained to deal with as a threat. Same thing as how you can carry a gun on your belt but absolutely not in your hand. It's a different brightline than the rest of the developed world has settled on, but it is a brightline nonetheless.

If you plan on committing a crime to act as a human shield, do so unarmed. Don't break the law while you're breaking the law. One crime at a time and all that.

Comparing Biden ICE is missing the point — Biden’s ICE could be “professional” since blue states weren’t actively trying to resist the feds.

Biden's ICE left all these aliens with final deportation orders and multiple felonies in place. That's not so professional. What's left of the libertarian in me is opposed to current immigration controls, but getting rid of felons I'm wholeheartedly for.

I’ve become convinced that libertarianism works but not for all societies and especially not for democracies with open borders.

Yeah, if you have a libertarian democracy with open borders, you have no defense against your libertarianism being voted away by the new arrivals who just want to pry up the surface of your gold-paved streets.

The question isn’t what’s wrong with carrying a gun in Minnesota - you’re muddying the water attempting to ask it.

especially when the victim appears to have gotten into a violent confrontation with ICE, resisting arrest, while carrying a gun, that's Darwin Award territory.

It’s putting it all together that’s insane.

Fair.

Still think Darwin award behavior isn't reason enough to be shot. The average person is not very bright. The system should be built with an assumption of dysfunctional behavior from randos.

I mean, dysfunctional behavior while carrying a gun is, well, FAFO territory. And don't need to be anti-second amendment to think that.

The system should be built with an assumption of dysfunctional behavior from randos.

It is, but it isn't perfect.

A leftwing agitator impeded the the lawful and moral imperative to remove illegal third world invaders and reverse demographic replacement.

Yeah, basically the goal is to ethnically cleanse the country, and if you resist the agents it’s their right to kill you

ICE, which is about 30% Hispanic, thinks they're going to ethnically cleanse the country by killing white people? Man, they must be really dumb.

Seems like pretty much a fact that much of the anti-immigrant right wants America to be a nation of whites, or at least a white majority. NYTreader said as much explicitly elsewhere in the thread.

So I don't know what point you're making. Also lots of ice agents probably are dumb yeah.

Always fun to check in on this place from time to time to see how far it's descended. I'm grateful at least /r/SlateStarCodex and most other rat-adjacent places are still sane.

Still better than Reddit, or X, or shudder bluesky.

I hate this place more than anywhere else on the Internet, except all the other places.

The quality keep going down. But I don't know any alternative

If we actually have fallen so far we are what you made us, as was predicted:

My Id On Defensiveness

There’s a term in psychoanalysis, “projective identification”. It means accusing someone of being something, in a way that actually turns them into that thing. For example, if you keep accusing your (perfectly innocent) partner of always being angry and suspicious of you, eventually your partner’s going to get tired of this and become angry, and maybe suspicious that something is up.

Declaring a group toxic has much the same effect. The average group has everyone from well-connected reasonable establishment members to average Joes to horrifying loonies. Once the group starts losing prestige, it’s the establishment members who are the first to bail; they need to protect their establishment credentials, and being part of a toxic group no longer fits that bill. The average Joes are now isolated, holding an opinion with no support among experts and trend-setters, so they slowly become uncomfortable and flake away as well. Now there are just the horrifying loonies, who, freed from the stabilizing influence of the upper orders, are able to up their game and be even loonier and more horrifying. Whatever accusation was leveled against the group to begin with is now almost certainly true.

This is just condoning being low agency and having low commitment to objectivity.

Im generally sympathetic to people with low agency but let's not act like it righteous in any way

you have to learn to ignore the noise. There are good discussions on here. The rhetoric has gotten heated the last few weeks. Most times, it's less .... heartless.

Personally, I find 2026's /r/SSC to be full of wannabe Mensa types. The internet is dead. a healthy dose of diverse echo-chambers is the next best thing.

It hasn't descended, pointing at the crazy insane partisan hobo on the street is no more indicative of the local communities culture than an indictment of what is considered mainstream.

I’ve been reading SSC for - a decade now?

This is the cultural thread … not every rat should be a progressive cog.

I want UBI and free healthcare / university and basically agree with the poster on this matter.

  1. You can’t see the hands or arms of the decedent. It looks either good nor bad. More facts are required.

  2. Even if LEO did something bad, the benefits of removing thousands of illegal immigrants is worth it. Probably saves American lives in the aggregate.

  3. LEO are under immense stress. Listen to the start of the video. Multiply that day by day. These protestors are nuts.

Even if LEO did something bad, the benefits of removing thousands of illegal immigrants is worth it. Probably saves American lives in the aggregate.

This is ultimately the best justification. As far as I can tell there's no argument against this.

The argument against it is pretty easy and clear. You can remove thousands of illegal immigrants without this chaotic clusterfuck the Trump admin has unleashed on Minneapolis. It's a cliche at this point, but Obama deported illegal immigrants at twice the pace of Donald Trump. And he did so while managing not to kill any American citizens.

And he did so while managing not to kill any American citizens.

Technically untrue in a darkly funny way (an ICE agent shot his supervisor and was subsequently shot and killed by another ICE agent).

The Obama administration did detain and possibly wrongfully deport American citizens, as well.

The intra-ICE shooting happened in 2013.

Yes; Obama was President in 2013.

But that line of argument basically goes 'the left can veto any right immigration policy enforcement with a heckler's veto', because they'll never cooperate with the right, ever, even when they lose elections.

  1. Your basic facts are wrong. Turnarounds aren’t the same as deporting. Obama didn’t actually deport people in meaningful numbers where deportations mean people living in the U.S. illegally.

  2. Blue states weren’t going to obstruct Obama in the same way if he tried to remove illegals living in the States.

So your premises are wrong. I do think there is a better way of doing this though — cut off funding to illegals, e verify, and offer free ticket + cash to leave

Obama deported illegal immigrants at twice the pace of Donald Trump.

No, he did not. His admin changed the metrics and counted turnbacks at the border as deportations to juice his stats. Why this idiotic talking point refuses to die is beyond me.

"See! Democrats could care about the border and be humane about it! You republicans just love brown people suffering! Wait what do you mean Abbott is bussing them to my suburb? Biden said the border was secure, its just 2 million migrants camping in Eagle Pass, Texas is big why don't they stay there"

And, notably, Eagle Pass doesn't have any higher of a standard of living than the towns on the Mexican side of the border(once you take local cost of living into account- northern Mexico is the nice developed part). The migrants got on the busses voluntarily because they wanted to go to the big cities with higher wages.

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