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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   23887 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 3, 2026

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I was following with interest the recent discussion here on the degenerate nature of hardcore anime fandom and I find that there are aspects to this that nobody mentioned. In this comment I'd like to call attention to one of these. Namely:

I propose the argument that feminist ideology has reached a level of cultural influence in the West sometime around 2008-2012 where unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**.

*Unironic in the sense that it's by no means done for the purpose of ironically conveying some politicized message about the sad reality of the male gaze, societal sexism etc.

**That is, women that are either lipstick feminists or conform to the norms of the (surely present) lipstick feminist women in their social circle. In other words, the big majority of women, or at least of young urban women.

Since the Japanese anime industry does not abide by these cultural norms, the consequence of this is that anime as a whole is increasingly suspect in the eyes of normie/NPC women, which has at least two consequences of its own. One: the male partners and/or friends of these women, who are usually cucky and normie-oriented betas, evidently adopt the same view, which contribute to its spread. Two: this provides an incentive to notice, thematize and even embellish the off-putting manifestations of anime fandom.

I'd make two more related observations as potential food for thought from this very forum.

@urquan has made a somewhat similar point before: resolute (male) attempts to counter-signal against the taboo on sexual display in a workplace setting are intensely off-putting to normie women. (The difference here is between intensely off-putting and, well, merely off-putting.)

This comment by @WhiningCoil also caught my attention:

I managed to successfully drag my poor wife through Berserk, Last Exile, Akira and a handful of others. But the look she gives me in Evangelion when Shinji gets tangled up in a fresh out of the shower Rei and "accidentally" gropes her, it's hard to defend why that's in there. The sexposition in Game of Thrones was gratuitous (and kind of fun sometimes), but at least they were adults.

Considering that the Berserk franchise contains excessive amounts of brutal violence, horror and gore, and as does Game of Thrones, plus not only "sexposition" but also explicit sex, rape, incest etc., I find it telling that it was a groping scene (which, it should be mentioned, was unironically accidental) that finally crossed the line in her eyes.

And finally a general point: this entire phenomenon has no female counterpart. That is, we see no similar widespread disapproval of (more or less) goonerbait cultural material directed at women. In fact, it appears to me that there is a general push to normalize it.

I managed to successfully drag my poor wife through Berserk, Last Exile, Akira and a handful of others. But the look she gives me in Evangelion when Shinji gets tangled up in a fresh out of the shower Rei and "accidentally" gropes her, it's hard to defend why that's in there.

I think the error here is dragging one's wife through these shows.

Women don't need to defend why there's all this endless talking and nothing happens in some period-history romance show... That's their thing I guess. I'm not into it. I want to see some conflict and preferably some violence.

Holding male stories to female standards is no good. Berserk is for men, Eva too I think. It's possible for shows or books to cater to the interests of men and women but not all fiction needs to be like this. Underlying interests are different. I naturally think that certain things I like have Universal Self-Evident Value but they're not, they're just for me and maybe a subset of men like me.

I'm sure I'm not appreciating all the nuances of whatever they're talking about in Big Dresses and Bigger Stagecoaches, I just don't care to since it's boring. Much the same with women and Big Pauldrons and Bigger Bombs. See also my comment: https://www.themotte.org/post/877/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/187490?context=8#context

That's interesting. For my wife, she's totally fine with that sort of sex fantasy being in shows. She's like "whatever, it's totally normal and wish fulfillment. Nbd". However, she gives me the look of disgust when I specifically make comments, or too many comments, that are sex fantasy-related. I have no clue why this is.

I've asked her many times and she can't explain it. Like for example, if I make sexual jokes to her about Anna from Frozen, she gives me the look. But when the actress in the Frozen Broadway musical takes the character in a totally sexual direction, and makes throaty murmers and feels up a suit of armor while singing "The First Time in Forever" (yes this actually happens in the taped produced movie of the Frozen musical that is currently on Disney+, go see for yourself), she gets annoyed if I think it's a little weird for a kids production to feature that.

I've asked her many times and she can't explain it. Like for example, if I make sexual jokes to her about Anna from Frozen, she gives me the look. But when the actress in the Frozen Broadway musical takes the character in a totally sexual direction, and makes throaty murmers and feels up a suit of armor while singing "The First Time in Forever" (yes this actually happens in the taped produced movie of the Frozen musical that is currently on Disney+, go see for yourself), she gets annoyed if I think it's a little weird for a kids production to feature that.

It makes sense if you acknowledge the late-stage feminism main normie message: feminism is whatever women do. The idea is that women cannot be judged for almost anything, if women do it then it is expression of their feminism and empowerment. There exist a huge carveout out of this if women do adopt more conservative stances especially if there is any suggestion that women should be held to some standard or perform any duty. So if women are against abortion, then of course it is not feminism, but false consciousness and internal misogyny and we do not talk about it maybe except that they are victims of their for sure terrible and abusive husbands. But in general any degenerate thing that women do should not be judged, it is just expression of their feminist empowerment. At worst they had to be forced to do it by men.

So sorry to break it to you, but you sexualizing Disney princess is disgusting, your wife sexualizing the same princess is feminism. And do not dare to judge her or ask her to maintain any level of moral consistency or ask her to fulfill any moral duty. It is as simple as that.

Previous discussion regarding whether it is possible/probable/desirable for men and women to share interests: 1 2

Long ago, I thought interesting women were women who were interested in the same things I was interested in. Which meant all the interesting girls were lesbians.

I think geeky guys often make the mistake of looking for women who are essentially men—and, yeah, there aren’t many of them. Men generally enjoy machines, systems, engineering, to a degree and in a way that women don’t, and likewise women generally enjoy creatures, cute things, fashion, social issues, learning about the dark side of the world, to a degree and in a way that men don’t. You’re unlikely to meet a woman whose personality and interests line up with men’s, or with yours.

unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**

I'm just scrolling through the recent female contestants on female-coded shows like Love Island, The Bachelor, Too Hot To Handle, Love is Blind, etc. and I'm not sure what kind of normie women TV you are watching.

I suppose that's a fair point, although I'd suggest treating the genre of reality TV, of which I scarcely know anything, as a wholly different matter. I'm assuming this sort of stuff is usually consumed by Boomer or GenX women and is, as you said, female-coded to begin with. On the other hand, my argument concerns younger women and products that are mainly male-oriented.

Younger Woman

  1. Love Island demographic as of May 2026 is 77% female, age distribution is that 54% are 16-19 and 23% are 20-29 (so 67% between 16-29).
  2. Too Hot To Handle demographic as of May 2026 is 55% female, age distribution is that 31% are 16-19 and 19% are 20-29 (so 50% between 16-29).
  3. Love is Blind demographic as of May 2026 is 55% female, age distribution is that 33% are 16-19 and 19% are 20-29 (so 52% between 16-29).
  4. The Bachelor demographic as of May 2026 is 76% female, age distribution is that 29% are 16-19 and 23% are 20-29 (so 52% between 16-29).

Take these numbers with grain of salt though, the median numbers don't make sense with the age distribution as presented.

Anyway, I only hear about these shows because the normie and liberal women I know (30 and below) talk about them and so I can assure you these are not consumed just by Boomer/GenX women.

products that are mainly male-oriented

I'm not really sure what you're saying, are you saying that recent Western/US male-oriented products are made with less "conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters"? I think this is going to depend on your definition of "non-girlboss" and "male-oriented products". Maybe can you present an example that you can think of? I can, on the top of my head, think of Penelope (Anne Hathaway) in The Odyssey, Aunt May (Marisa Tomei) in the Spiderman movies, Nikki (Inde Navarrette) in Obsession from the movies just this year.

I'd argue that recent Western/US male-oriented products (mainstream movies, TV series and video games that are marketed mostly to men) are made with fewer "conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters" than before (before 2010 or so), as a reaction to the preferences of feminist-adjacent normie women, who find the presence of such content off-putting, repellent and cringe, and who want to police the cultural consumption of men (especially young single men) accordingly, similarly to the antics of the church ladies of the old days.

I would like to point out that maybe the only aspect of female representation in Western/US male-oriented products that went down in numbers would be the "non-girlboss" part. Most female representation in Western/US male-oriented products are still "conventionally attractive" and "sexually alluring". Sex sells after all.

Which kinda begs the question as what is "non-girlboss" in your eyes?

Most female representation in Western/US male-oriented products are still "conventionally attractive" and "sexually alluring". Sex sells after all.

I think this is only true in the most vapid of ways, where we can say that someone being selected to feature in a major media product at all is almost definitely in the top 50% of attractiveness (probably top 20%), male or female. But this doesn't really touch on the phenomenon, where stars who headlined major works would often be in the top 5% of attractiveness, and this has expanded to something closer to top 20%, if not top 50%, and the gap between 95th and 80th - to say nothing of 50th - is absolutely ginormous.

And there's the phenomenon in video games, where, technologically, there's no technological reason why every female character can't have attractiveness that matches that of Eve from Stellar Blade or 2B from Nier: Automata, and yet devs insist on modeling many major ones after real-life actresses and capturing their looks in a rugged, gritty, realistic way like in recent God of War or Halo games, instead of sexifying them like with Eve and her (IIRC) 3 human models in Stellar Blade. Or just overtly choosing norm-defying types of characters like many of the woman characters from Sony's $100MM+ failure (as you write, sex sells; and some devs sometimes seem to have decided that not selling is worth the not sex) Concord or one of the protagonists of The Last of Us 2.

I think this is only true in the most vapid of ways, where we can say that someone being selected to feature in a major media product at all is almost definitely in the top 50% of attractiveness (probably top 20%), male or female. But this doesn't really touch on the phenomenon, where stars who headlined major works would often be in the top 5% of attractiveness, and this has expanded to something closer to top 20%, if not top 50%, and the gap between 95th and 80th - to say nothing of 50th - is absolutely ginormous.

I think @Botond173 is going beyond that, I think they're arguing that "feminist-adjacent normie women" is policing US/Western media output so that the top 5% in attractiveness can't headline major works in fear of triggering "antics of the church ladies of the old days". I posit this is untrue because sex sells. Or maybe all the top 5% are having a great time being OnlyFans and influencers and don't need to slave themselves to the media industry.

Your argument of expansion of attractiveness representation is fair and I understand that, though I don't see that really being a problem that normie woman exercise their preferences. With enough economic cycles, an equilibrium will be found and like you summed it, I'm sure "someone being selected to feature in a major media product" will still land north of the median attractive person for the rest of time.

And there's the phenomenon in video games, where, technologically, there's no technological reason why every female character can't have attractiveness that matches that of Eve from Stellar Blade or 2B from Nier: Automata, and yet devs insist on modeling many major ones after real-life actresses and capturing their looks in a rugged, gritty, realistic way like in recent God of War or Halo games, instead of sexifying them like with Eve and her (IIRC) 3 human models in Stellar Blade. Or just overtly choosing norm-defying types of characters like many of the woman characters from Sony's $100MM+ failure (as you write, sex sells; and some devs sometimes seem to have decided that not selling is worth the not sex) Concord or one of the protagonists of The Last of Us 2.

I will concede on this one. I do think that economic pressures (maybe it's cheaper to just take the real life mocap actresses and don't touch them up? idk) or economic demands (female audience don't get jealous, female audience sees more representation of their level of attractiveness, etc. means more people buy the game or at least don't disparage it) leads to video games having an expansion in allowable female character attractiveness.

But then is it really that bad? it's not "man walking into traffic while distracted by woman" level of beauty but only "man would be down to bed her no alcohol required" level of beauty. Is this some danger to society?

I think @Botond173 is going beyond that, I think they're arguing that "feminist-adjacent normie women" is policing US/Western media output so that the top 5% in attractiveness can't headline major works in fear of triggering "antics of the church ladies of the old days".

This doesn't match my perception of their argument, but they can speak for themselves.

Your argument of expansion of attractiveness representation is fair and I understand that, though I don't see that really being a problem that normie woman exercise their preferences. With enough economic cycles, an equilibrium will be found and like you summed it, I'm sure "someone being selected to feature in a major media product" will still land north of the median attractive person for the rest of time.

It's not that normie women are exercising their preferences, though. It's creators who overtly admit to buying into a particular ideology overtly designing women in a certain way that fits their ideology.

I do think that economic pressures (maybe it's cheaper to just take the real life mocap actresses and don't touch them up? idk)

Mocap is something else, having to do with animation, rather than scanning the person's likeness in. Mocap actors often don't look like the characters they're portraying. In terms of scanning real people in, I'm pretty sure it's more expensive to do that than just to create a model from scratch, especially the work involved in getting the specific details to match the actor just right. And certainly, the caliber of actors they're hiring (Hollywood-level actors, mostly B-list, but the occasional A-listers like Keanu Reeves or Idris Elba) are not known for being cheap - a cost that wouldn't exist at all from scratch. In the case of Stellar Blade, IIRC Shift Up hired some models who have some celebrity stature but are certainly far from Hollywood-level.

economic demands (female audience don't get jealous, female audience sees more representation of their level of attractiveness, etc. means more people buy the game or at least don't disparage it) leads to video games having an expansion in allowable female character attractiveness.

This was an argument made regularly 10-20 years ago about changing gaming. The argument was... questionable then, and today, after games have changed, it just doesn't hold any water, given the way the market has responded. Jealousy by female audiences or liking more representation or whatever simply aren't significant factors in the market for video games, particularly the mainstream AAA titles that people are mostly concerned with. Someone who believes that, by doing this, they can make their mainstream gamer-targeting game more economically successful is someone whose beliefs are defined by ideology, not by reality.

But then is it really that bad? it's not "man walking into traffic while distracted by woman" level of beauty but only "man would be down to bed her no alcohol required" level of beauty. Is this some danger to society?

It's only a danger to society like any other media like OnlyFans or Andrew Tate are: i.e. in some crazy Six-Degrees-of-Seven-Bacon way about various downstream effects with very questionable veracity. But in terms of it being really that bad, yes, it's really that bad. Denying the creation and dissemination of greater beauty when it would cost nothing more than less, just to feed some ideological commitments, is a travesty.

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From inside the Feminist Nexus - and I speak here from personal experience - even worse than the unironic femininity of anime girls is that they enjoy it, and the shows around them clearly state that this is the norm. It's not just that one of the girls is more sensitive and gentle and people-oriented and physically weak than her male counterparts, but all of them! Even the warrior girls have their feminine sides, where they go "[protagonist name]!" and cling to the guy. And everyone around them expects this! That's what the author, the medium, the whole culture surrounding the medium, believes about women, how they believe women should be. Anime is a form of art that is not only bigoted, but pushes its opinions through the mouths of the groups it's bigoted against.

Once the detector trips, everything else confirms it. The short skirts and large breasts, the useless female characters, the perverted old masters, the Class S stories, the relative popularity of shonen and shoujo manga, the relative popularity of M/M and M/F ships on Archive Of Our Own. So you retreat to a Certified Feminist anime, or you fight over the ones that were feminist enough that you got invested before they betrayed you. This is why Revolutionary Girl Utena and Madoka Magica have a certain valance now, and why all internet discussion of Oniisama e... is about how the story is gross for not going the way the watcher needed it to go so she could uncritically enjoy it.

Many, many years ago, I watched Macross: Do You Remember Love? And it took my brain apart and put it back together, because I had been raised to basically be a male chauvinist by way of feminism. You mean I'm supposed to enjoy and celebrate that there are differences between men and women? You mean a woman crying for a reason she can't explain can be a symbol of maturity? You mean I'm supposed to treat women differently than men not just because I'm romantically interested in them but also simply because of their sex? What's next, all the men are fighter pilots and all the girls love a song titled "My Boyfriend Is A Pilot"? "Feminine" was not something a man was allowed to like about women, in a way that actually implied anything about them.

I wonder if you're familiar with the Cross Ange series.

I have never seen it, but am aware of its reputation as a sort of post-Geass cash-in / proto-Valrave / trash to treasure attempt.

the relative popularity of M/M and M/F ships on Archive Of Our Own.

I would be willing to bet my left nut that 90%+ of M/M ships are written by women

That's absolutely the case. If you point this out the people advancing the argument will just cover their eyes and ears, though. It's the same for everything they claim about anime. (If I wasn't clear above, I long ago escaped from the Feminism Nexus). The training you receive through social osmosis while in feminist spaces doesn't allow for anything else. You evaluate everything for sexism while you read or watch, and the smallest things trigger the alarm.

I would bet your left nut on that too.

They are. Yaoi and the writen forms are the domain of women for some reason. What's hotter than a naked guy? Two guys at the same time I guess.

An extreme example of this comes from omegaverse fiction, which in itself is just "what if men and women were both men so that we could write gay fanfic that was straight"... but over time, alpha/alpha pairings apparently came to predominate in many places, because that's "what if men and women were both men, and we took the men (men) and wrote gay (still straight) fanfic about them".

I'd caution that "many places" might be overselling it: AO3 as a whole has 320k fics tagged 'alpha/beta/omega dynamics', and 38.6k tagged 'non-traditional alpha/beta/omega dynamics' (technically a broader category, but both futa and lesbian works are basically rounding errors).

A good point! I remember reading of a specific community in which the specific alpha/alpha form had completely taken over, but can no longer find the source, so it may well have been a fever dream.

Fair. I'm not aware of any specific ones off-hand, but a lot of the more fem-writer focused esoterica tends to be RPF that I stay away from.

And I will second the "gay (still straight)" bit. There's a handful of fujoshi that can write credible gay characters, and a couple who can even get the 'straight' guy tone plausibly right, but most don't manage to hit femmy gay guy.

I had been raised to basically be a male chauvinist by way of feminism. [...] "Feminine" was not something a man was allowed to like about women, in a way that actually implied anything about them.

The feminists were right. Of course a woman crying at the drop of a pin is immature; the ubiquity of such behavior is a mark against women as a class. The descriptor of "feminine" implies lameness: feminine professions are low-status, feminine interests are shallow, feminine virtues are ancillary. There is value in sweetness and sensitivity, yes, but the whole is undoubtedly lesser than. The feminists were wrong to think that femininity is societally induced, but there is no shame in lamenting one's lot.

Personally, I am unconvinced that the agreeable parts of femininity must be so tightly intertwined with the lame parts. Do you think otherwise?

That is, we see no similar widespread disapproval of (more or less) goonerbait cultural material directed at women.

That depends a bit on where you put the marker for "widespread disapproval". Twilight was popular, but it was also heavily disliked and mocked in mainstream, fandom, and even feminist spaces. Morning Glory Milking Farm's better-known for the manly men mocking it than among the actual goonettes.

There's not an industry built to disapprove of it, in the way that there is an industry around performative disgust about male sexuality. But that's more a comment on business practices than on culture.

I think there's an important difference of kind here: "goonerbait cultural material directed at women" is mocked as being immature and shallow, at worst it is seen as an understandable form of escapism for women too unattractive (not necessarily physically) to find a decent guy. On the other hand, "goonerbait cultural material directed at men" is treated as dangerous material that teaches men to harm women. It is regularly banned or censored by large corporations and governments. The UN has multiple outstanding demands to Japan to legally constrain the media in order to fight "violence against women".

Yeah, that's a more readily distinguished comparison.

Twilight is probably not, like, good literature. I've never heard it seriously defended as anything more than the appeal to a woman's inner sixteen year old fantasies... but I've also never heard it seriously criticized as anything worse than that, either. It definitely isn't porn- it's about a teenager being special and chosen by a much older man who keeps his hands to himself before marriage and having babies quickly. Not the most likely sequence of events, but fantasia, not pornography.

No, there were definitely people criticizing Twilight on a moral panic level and not just a cringe level. Fifty Shades Of Grey, too. These strains of commentary were still notably muted, though, and likely fading out.

I’ve never heard twilight criticized as porn. There was criticism of twilight as dangerous for adolescent girls on the basis that much older men are bad news, but I don’t remember a moral panic about OMG all the sex and violence. 50 shades, yes, it definitely had that.

Fair. Better example?

Everyone from the late 2000s owes Stephanie Meyer and Twilight an apology for how they treated them. It is a wholesome romance, too pure for this world, and IMO applying the gooner label to such a chaste story stretches that word to the breaking point.

I agree with you that the cow story is held up as an example to decry women's romance far more than it is actually read.

That said, romantasy is probably the hottest genre in publishing right now, and Sarah J. Maas, author of the Court of Thorns and Roses series, is the one of the biggest and best-selling modern authors. Walk into any Barnes & Nobles and the stuff is all over the place. Femgooning is extremely normalized and celebrated, backed by big publishing houses and deemed fit to be stocked on the shelves of mainstream retailers.

I'm fine with this, I don't begrudge women their preferences, but it is undeniable to me that a lot of them like enjoy this state of affairs and take it for granted, while sharply policing anything that appeals to men in the same way wherever it appears.

Seconded. I’ll add that as a lover of European-style fantasy, the only game in town (outside of mediums with zero or near-zero production costs like webfic) is anime and JRPGs and their Korean/Chinese equivalents. What are your options for modern fantasy in the west these days? The Rings of Power or the Wheel of Time show (is this the worst time in history to see something you like get an adaptation announced?)? Dragon Age Veilguard? If you are fine with out of place diversity, progressive axe grinding, and the host of modern western neuroses on race, gender, and sexuality and the inherent storytelling compromises they demand, I guess you are not wanting for content.

We don’t have to live like this, though. One of my favorite newer shows is Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End, which I’d recommend to anyone from the last thread who was skeptical or worried about fanservice. It is a heartfelt, understated story with lovable characters and beautiful animation. Spy x Family is another good entry anime, a lighthearted story about a young family set in Cold War-era not-Berlin. Jobless Reincarnation (this one is NOT wife/gf-safe and the main character does some things I won’t defend in the start of the story) is a thoughtful, inspiring story of self-actualization and second chances. Most people into anime already know this, but I saw overlap between people who often complain about modern western media and people calling anime degenerate in that last thread.

There exists a media ecosystem where you don’t have to be lectured about progressive ideals, masculinity and whiteness being problematic isn’t the story’s metaphysical assumption, and yes — as Botund said, sex appeal that exists for the eyes of straight men is allowed to exist. I used to have a hangup about that last category in a rather Scott Aaronson manner and saw it as immoral, but I’ve come around on it and now see the male gaze, in moderation, as a good thing. Women enjoy media meant to appeal to their tastes and don’t question it or wring their hands about it; you should too.

Seconded. I’ll add that as a lover of European-style fantasy, the only game in town (outside of mediums with zero or near-zero production costs like webfic) is anime and JRPGs and their Korean/Chinese equivalents. What are your options for modern fantasy in the west these days? The Rings of Power or the Wheel of Time show (is this the worst time in history to see something you like get an adaptation announced?)? Dragon Age Veilguard? If you are fine with out of place diversity, progressive axe grinding, and the host of modern western neuroses on race, gender, and sexuality and the inherent storytelling compromises they demand, I guess you are not wanting for content.

Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves (2023) was pretty good. There are a couple of black characters and a female barbarian, but it's done in a very 90's way; colorblind, gender neutral, never drawing attention to itself. But that's only one movie, and it was horribly screwed over by marketing which implied that it was a woke film, so point taken.

These days, I get most of my fantasy fix from glowfic, which is a kind of web novel written collaboratively by two or more authors taking turns roleplaying as their characters; near-zero production costs, indeed. I strongly recommend Project Lawful, the epic co-authored by Iarwain (Eliezer Yudkowsky/Less Wrong) and lintamande (Kelsey Piper/The Unit of Caring). The ending made me cry; I never thought I would respect Cayden Cailean like that, but Eliezer was right; every character has the potential to be awesome.

I strongly recommend Project Lawful

That mirror seems to return a lot of internal server errors, so you may want to instead link to the main website in the future.Never mind, the main site returns a lot of these errors as well.

Spoiler warnings! I've tried to read Project Lawful a few times now, and although I keep failing (IMHO it would be awesome with a skilled and bloodthirsty editor, but it'll never get one) I make it another 20+% through each time, and I'm still hoping to finish it someday without cracking and asking an LLM to take that editing job first.

I like that the barbarian was outcast for violating her tribe's understanding of racial purity. Because she married a halfling.

Spy x Family is an interesting one, to me, because I think its fundamental conviction is that families are great. It's a show that places ordinary domestic life, like going to school or making dinner or getting a pet, alongside dramatic super-spy nonsense that involves terrorists and blowing up buildings and leaping over cars and acrobatic assassins dispatching their targets, and it thinks that both are equally important. It almost thinks that domestic life is more important than spycraft. We expect Twilight to catch the bad guys and retrieve the microfilm and so on, but we are cheering for Loid to show tenderness and care toward his daughter. Yor is simultaneously an ultra-competent and deadly assassin and a well-meaning klutz of a wife, and it's the latter role where she faces the greatest challenges, not only in terms of skill and experience, but in terms of emotional readiness. From the first moment of the show, the contrast, and the comedy deriving therefrom, is obviously at its heart. Yes, yes, there's all the silly James Bond stuff, but all that stuff is important because it defends families.

It's very sweet, and I am tempted to argue the kind of quiet pro-family propaganda that we could do with a bit more of.

Spy x Family has got to be some kind of pro-natalist psyop. Shinzo Abe would be proud.

We don’t have to live like this, though. One of my favorite newer shows is Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End, which I’d recommend to anyone from the last thread who was skeptical or worried about fanservice. It is a heartfelt, understated story with lovable characters and beautiful animation.

I wholeheartedly second Frieren. It is a beautiful story, and is well-suited to non-anime-watching normies. (In a similar class to things like Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist.) The dub is also fairly well done, for people who don't want to read while watching something.

There exists a media ecosystem where you don’t have to be lectured about progressive ideals, masculinity and whiteness being problematic isn’t the story’s metaphysical assumption, and yes — as Botund said, sex appeal that exists for the eyes of straight men is allowed to exist. I used to have a hangup about that last category in a rather Scott Aaronson manner and saw it as immoral, but I’ve come around on it and now see the male gaze, in moderation, as a good thing. Women enjoy media meant to appeal to their tastes and don’t question it or wring their hands about it; you should too.

I mean, I would argue there's a few media ecosystems like that around the world. I've enjoyed the occasions where I've dipped my toes into Indian cinema (Bollywood and South Indian cinema) as well. While there's less overt sex appeal in most Indian cinema than in anime, it is still a media ecosystem where they often allow unapologetic stories of badass men doing cool things and getting the girl.

It might rub some of the most pro-Western members of the Motte here the wrong way, but I consider RRR to be one of the best action films of the last 10 years. I've sometimes joked about making it a part of a "British Empire Cinematic Universe" movie marathon, alongside The Patriot, and The Wind that Shakes the Barley.

And where Indian cinema does go quasi-woke, it is most commonly focusing on things like caste discrimination, which I suspect are easier for most anti-woke people to stomach. For example, I really enjoyed the film Karnan (2021), and it was probably inspired by 1995 caste riots (while not referencing them directly.)

I propose the argument that feminist ideology has reached a level of cultural influence in the West sometime around 2008-2012 where unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**.

I don't watch much television or movie content, but what about the television show Landman? It seems like there are a lot of female characters who are basically there to be eye candy. For example:

  1. In an early episode, there is a scene where some of the characters order coffee from a coffee shop called "Babes 'n Brew." The girl working the counter is an impossibly attractive young woman wearing a bikini top. By "impossibly," I mean that in real life you would pretty much never see a woman this attractive, dressed like that, working a job like that, in that part of the country.

  2. One of the main characters, played by Billy Bob Thornton, has a college-aged daughter who is highly attractive and spends a lot of time parading around in a bikini.

  3. In another scene, there is a drug smuggler type who is shown taking a call from Billy Bob Thornton's character while sitting in a strip club; in the background there are various unrealistically attractive women dancing around while wearing very little.

I do concede that the culture has become more hostile to this sort of fan service. For example, I remember the movie "The Fifth Element" from about 30 years ago. The movie has numerous attractive, sexily dressed female characters working in roles such as stewardess, receptionist, and fast food clerk. I think it would be hard to make a movie with roles like that today, in part due to the influence of feminism. But I also think there's another possible factor, which is that pornography has become so easily available that it's not as much of a selling point to include this sort of stuff in a movie.

I disagree with your last point. Sometimes I get so tired of porn because it's so fake. I don't want to really see trashy sluts getting banged all the time, just sometimes. But I settle for that because that's the closest alternative. But I often want to see cute girls going through the early stages of romance, blushing, being cute and awkward, wrestling with really feelings. Sometimes I'll see a movie that features that and it grabs me.

But I often want to see cute girls going through the early stages of romance, blushing, being cute and awkward, wrestling with really feelings.

Perhaps my point was more narrow than it should have been. I was talking about the practice of putting sexy women, typically in sexy clothing (or no clothing at all), into television and movies where from the context it seems that the main point (or a large part of the point) is to titillate viewers. For this type of stipulation, it seems like online pornography would be a pretty good substitute.

I don't want to really see trashy sluts getting banged all the time, just sometimes

I think it's worth pointing out that online pornography (or at least what I would call online pornography) is a lot broader than this. For example, a website which is devoted to showing pictures of women in short dresses and skirts. So defined, it's easy to see that there is a lot of overlap between online pornography and the sort of fan service I am talking about.

Sometimes I'll see a movie that features that and it grabs me.

Well would you say that what you have described (cute girls going through the early stages of romance) has become (to some extent) taboo due to the influence of feminism?

Adding to what @haroldbkny already said, the principle is still worth defending.

I rarely watch mainstream media that features black people anymore, even when their presence is technically plausible within the setting. Not because I harbour some pathological hatred of blacks (I don't), but because experience has taught me that “plausibility” is almost entirely incidental.

Beyond a certain budget, an all white, all straight, gender conforming cast with traditional sex roles is effectively forbidden. The industry treats demographic representation and progressive tropes as non-negotiables first and a storytelling choice second. I oppose that cultural settlement on principle.

Now regarding male gaze, I'm all for flat justice, and cannon-boobs aren't exactly my first preference. Nor do I need to see hot naked women to enjoy something. But I know why that is stigmatised. This is not some aesthetic evolution that emerged "neutrally". It is the product of constant feminist cultural policing of traditionally male spaces. And the same environment that treats the male gaze as something to be ashamed of and confined to privately consumed vices like porn, simultaneously celebrates male nudity and the female gaze in those same mainstream venues, see Thor Love and Thunder.

The messaging is that male desire is low-status and must be disavowed in public, female desire (and its equivalents) is high-status and may be displayed openly.

And you as a man should internalise this hierarchy and join the choir in calling out the "weirdos" who refuse to comply. You see this specimen of man everywhere, it's obvious as hell that he doesn't actually believe this, but performs it anyway purely for social approval. I've even seen it in games like Black Myth Wukong. The female characters are not at all sexualised in costume or behaviour. But the complaint still persists merely because females in the game were facially feminine and pretty. It's transparent from the language, "have you SEEN an ACTUAL woman?" Pure status signaling through and through.

I rarely watch mainstream media that features black people anymore, even when their presence is technically plausible within the setting. Not because I harbour some pathological hatred of blacks (I don't), but because experience has taught me that “plausibility” is almost entirely incidental.

Well I think that once a black person has been cast, there is a lot of pressure on the show runners, directors, producers, etc. to follow certain rules about how that black person must be portrayed. And if they follow those rules, it makes the wokeness of the content that much more prominent and obvious.

  • But I know why that is stigmatised. This is not some aesthetic evolution that emerged "neutrally". It is the product of constant feminist cultural policing of traditionally male spaces

As I mentioned above, while I think that there is a taboo against this kind of fan service, it's nowhere near as strong as, for example, the taboo against portraying a black character as being unintelligent. For example, as mentioned above, in Landman there is plenty of male gaze type content.

Also as mentioned above, it seems to me there may be another factor in play, which is the easy availability of sexually stimulating material online.

Here's another example of what I mean: In the 1980s, there were a few very popular movies which featured a lot of female nudity. For example, Stripes. At the time, if you wanted to see a movie of naked women taking a shower together, going to see Stripes was the only practical way of doing so, apart from going to an extremely seedy movie theater or adult book store.

So it seems to me that there is less incentive for filmmakers to include this kind of content. Because there is not as much demand for it.

The messaging is that male desire is low-status and must be disavowed in public, female desire (and its equivalents) is high-status and may be displayed openly.

I agree, but I think that in the absence of internet porn (broadly defined), plenty of content creators (including big budget films and television shows) would make lots of male gaze type stuff. And even with the internet (and with feminism) there still is a decent amount.

Well I think that once a black person has been cast, there is a lot of pressure on the show runners, directors, producers, etc. to follow certain rules about how that black person must be portrayed.

But this is downstream of the first mandate though, the non-negotiable racial inclusion. LOTR is objectively not made any better by including blacks, no matter how stellar their performances purportedly are.

As I mentioned above, while I think that there is a taboo against this kind of fan service, it's nowhere near as strong as, for example, the taboo against portraying a black character as being unintelligent.

Okay, so the grievance hierarchy places black representation above male gaze and penalises it harder. So what? Exceptions like Landman may exist (I haven't seen it, so I'll take your word for it) but the direction of the pressure is still the same. Do you think Stripes would be made today?

Sure, access to online porn may reduce the pure commercial incentive to include softcore fanservice, but it does not explain the active moralisation of female sex appeal. If this were merely demand adjusting to free alternatives, we would expect quiet reduction. What we actually get is reduction plus public scolding. Attractive female characters are not simply less common, they are frequently treated as ideologically suspect. And there's a corresponding rise in male nudity even in male media, like Thor. What is the commercial incentive here?

But this shift is especially obvious in video games. Female character designs are frequently unrealistically ugly and androgynous, look at Abby in TLOU2 vs the live action TV show. Ironic, the graphics get prettier while female models get uglier. And the stated reasons are explicitly "diversity" and "subverting the male gaze". That is not the market spontaneously deciding that gamers (majority straight male) no longer like looking at pretty women. It is a cultural and professional status hierarchy asserting itself inside studios, marketing departments, and critical institutions, independent of any commercial incentives.

That is why I brought up Black Myth Wukong. There's literally zero wank material there, but the complaints still arrived because the female designs were conventionally feminine and attractive, despite being non-sexual. Not as loud as Stellar Blade, but they were still there.

But this is downstream of the first mandate though, the non-negotiable racial inclusion. LOTR is objectively not made any better by including blacks, no matter how stellar their performances purportedly are.

For the most part, I agree. But here's an example of what I mean: The Northman (which came out in 2022) did not have any blacks as best I can recall. There wasn't really a freakout about it. (Although it didn't receive any Oscar nominations -- possibly if the director had shoehorned in a black character, it would have done better.) Similarly, Ford versus Ferrari had basically no black characters but received a few Oscar nominations.

By contrast, imagine what would have happened if these movies had included black characters but presented them as unintelligent, or incompetent, or lazy, or otherwise contemptible.

The point is that failing to include blacks is a misdemeanor; including blacks but portraying them in a way which is politically incorrect is a felony.

Okay, so the grievance hierarchy places black representation above male gaze and penalises it harder. So what?

So nothing. You brought up the issue of casting of blacks, I think it was interesting enough to respond to but that's about it.

Sure, access to online porn may reduce the pure commercial incentive to include softcore fanservice, but it does not explain the active moralisation of female sex appeal.

Not directly, anyway. Here's a thought experiment:

Suppose that the Internet didn't exist so there was no way to conveniently access pornography. Would movie directors include more fan service knowing that it would improve their bottom line, notwithstanding the complaints of feminists? And if so, how would feminists react?

Here's an analogy: As you know, during the American Civil War, for the most part the northern states were against slavery and the southern states were in favor. Was this because liberalism was more prevalent in the north (just like it's still more prevalent today) or because the northern economy was far less dependent on slavery than that of the south? One can certainly argue that both were factors. And that economic considerations have a lot of influence (but not necessarily decisive influence) over peoples' views of morality.

And there's a corresponding rise in male nudity even in male media, like Thor. What is the commercial incentive here?

Very little, I would guess. In fact, a lot of female viewers would prefer to look at female bodies over male bodies. Just look at the covers of women's magazines. I would guess that a bigger factor in that kind of male nudity is just woke flag-planting, as opposed to appealing to the female gaze, so to speak.

I was talking about the practice of putting sexy women, typically in sexy clothing (or no clothing at all), into television and movies where from the context it seems that the main point (or a large part of the point) is to titillate viewers.

I mean you have a point. But maybe my point was too narrow, too. I like seeing sexy women in sexy clothes in situations that don't involve them just banging. Actually, when I really feel bored with porn, anime porn is a good substitute, because the characters seem less like they're doing it for a paycheck, in part because they're not real, but also there's story involved. My definition of "normal" porn may be too narrow, but it basically always involves no story. But maybe my experience is not universal.

For example, a website which is devoted to showing pictures of women in short dresses and skirts

I can't really speak to that because I don't get it. Is there a parasocial effect where the intended audience are commenters that feel like they have a relationship with these girls posting the pictures? Like a cam girl?

Well would you say that what you have described (cute girls going through the early stages of romance) has become (to some extent) taboo due to the influence of feminism?

To some extent, inasmuch as they love to police anything that men like. I wouldn't really say taboo, at least not in 2026. Maybe in 2017 it was.

In an early episode, there is a scene where some of the characters order coffee from a coffee shop called "Babes 'n Brew." The girl working the counter is an impossibly attractive young woman wearing a bikini top. By "impossible," I mean that in real life you would pretty much never see a woman this attractive, dressed like that, working a job like that, in that part of the country.

... oddly enough, I was reading an article on Bikini Baristas just within the past week or two, and have no idea how I stumbled upon the link. Mught have been here, even. Or might have been in a discussion on submarines/sailors/shipbuilders. Who knows?

it was a groping scene (which, it should be mentioned, was unironically accidental)

Yeah, "accidentally" put in there by the creators. That's the point; it's about as unironic as the porn clichés of "oops, my hot neighbour came out of the shower in only a towel and somehow got locked out of her apartment".

Why is there a groping scene in the show? For the male viewers to get their thrills. Which is fine, that's what these shows are about, but expecting women to watch it and go "nope, nothing to see here" is a bit much. I don't know if guys would be "this is unironic and accidental" about shows where the trope is that the hot male lead constantly ends up in nothing but a towel with some groping by the second male lead, but it's the distaff parallel (it would seem for cdramas the trope is "hot male lead in bath tub, some very light BDSM choking ensues"). This is unabashedly for the female gaze.

I said something similar last thread, but here goes again: Eva is in part a parody / deconstruction / reconstruction / modification / discussion of such cliches. The protagonist is an ordinary 14 year old who is suddenly asked to pilot a giant robot, and it's entirely unpleasant and terrifying. He's constantly around this extremely submissive girl who dresses in skintight latex, and then she walks out of the shower and he grabs her boob by accident like he's in a harem show, except it's awkward and disgusting and nothing comes of it, and then the girl dies and is replaced by her clone, which is part of a system of flesh puppets that a madman is using to melt the entire planet into a hive mind. Then a sexy assertive foreign girl shows up and constantly comes on to the main character, except he's too scared to respond and she's actually quite unpleasant to him and just acting out due to her psychological problems. There's also a hot irresponsible older lady who is a chronic alcoholic who hates herself and doesn't know how to interact with other people except through sex. And a hot scientist who is sleeping with the same man her dead mother used to in order to feel any kind of connection to another human being.

If you wanted an example of fanservice for its own sake, it would be hard to find a worse one than Evangelion. I could probably advance the argument that every single piece of fanservice in the show is both diagetic and serves some greater narrative purpose. Even if that's just "hey, remember what it was like to be a teenager?"

Men are not, generally speaking, complaining about the hot guys being shirtless a lot in popular movies and TV shows.

In general, it has been long Noticed that the stereotypical male reaction to a male physique in popular media superior to his own is to use it as inspo to Git Gud, whereas the stereotypical female reaction to a female physique in popular media superior to her own is to perceive it as a threat to her Wonderfulness.

All the while a hot male physique is much more difficult to achieve than a hot female physique.

In general, it has been long Noticed that the stereotypical male reaction to a male physique in popular media superior to his own is to use it as inspo to Git Gud

And yet so few men Git Gud after watching buff men on screen.

To be fair, a hot male physique* is generally thought to imply physical prowess, and something you can work on by improving your physical prowess.

So Git Gud is both possible and instrumentally useful beyond hotness, but a woman who is already in a healthy weight range can do much less, and it's unclear what purpose it would serve beyond attracting men.

  • Or what straight men consider to be one, in any case, I gather there are claims that women don't actually find the super muscular type that attractive.

The optimal physique for impressing other men (gay or straight - mutual admiration among male bodybuilders who get that far is pretty homoerotic) is more muscled than the optimal physique for attracting women, which is more muscled than the physique you get if you optimise for balanced athleticism*. Men in actually elite military units are a lot fitter than you or I, but they aren't obviously jacked, and they would be if it made them more combat-effective.

* Obviously there are some areas of strength-focussed sport, notoriously including baseball hitting, where being jacked and roided is optimal for performance if there is no drug testing regime in place.

No one likes seeing how the sausage is made. This applies to both men and women. Men want "natural beauty" and then go buy bathwater from an egirl that has more stucco on her face that the whole Sistine Chapel. Women don't want a gym rat that takes PED's and then buy the romance book with the most developed, glistening abs and pecs on the cover.

I don't know; the Royal Marines look pretty good to me.

whereas the stereotypical female reaction to a female physique in popular media superior to her own is to perceive it as a threat to her Wonderfulness.

If only there was some popular story that served to make this common knowledge.

Indeed

I'd wager that there was almost no-one who found that scene titillating, given the dreary room, the blood, Rei's expression, Shinji's awkwardness, the utter destitution of every element and tone. Eroticism in art has its place, and this was a good use of it, given the youthful ignorance of the characters. And frankly, some writers are just more attuned to those kinds of things that others.

Why is there a groping scene in the show? For the male viewers to get their thrills. Which is fine, that's what these shows are about, but expecting women to watch it and go "nope, nothing to see here" is a bit much.

Okay, but... why?

Put it this way: you're entitled to dislike fan service. You're entitled to disdain the male gaze. You're entitled to not be interested in shows that exist to please men.

But you are arguing two contradictory things:

  1. "It's fine."
  2. "You shouldn't expect a woman to just sit there and not complain about it."

Like, if you genuinely believe that it's "fine" for some shows to featuring boobs and butts and groping and fan service, why is it "too much" to expect a woman to watch it without going off?

Now, if she was compelled/tricked/reluctantly dragged into watching it, or had no idea what sort of show it was and was enjoying it until the sudden fan service, okay, I can see some hard eye rolls, but I'm going to be honest, I don't think you (or most women) are "fine" with shows like that. You just sort of grudgingly tolerate their existence.

(FWIW, I have never seen Berserk and am not much into anime nowadays. Just sayin', as much as I dislike the seething hatred that sweats out of some of our He-Man Wimmin-Haters, they aren't completely wrong that a lot of media just gets outright snipped for the horrific crime of... being appealing to men.)

Okay, further explanation has demonstrated that that particular scene wasn't just about titillation. But it's the Battle Lingerie trope that is responsible for the eye-rolling. Some games etc. do put it in For The Guyz. And okay, we have to accept that. But it's not realistic, and it's not there for any reason other than "male sexuality is really easy to unlock, just boobs'n'butts". (The zeppelin boobs and impossibly chunky thighs are the turn off for women watching).

God bless Torchlight, lo these many years past now, where I played as a female character (can't remember if it was engineer or what) and mine eyes did widen and gaze aghast as I got a better piece of gear that was less coverage for my character. I remember swapping the gear on and off, and yep the stats for armour etc. got better and yep the battlekini got skimpier.

The corresponding male character was covered from goggles to bootsoles, so it was even sillier. So if I wanted to play the game, I played as a male character because yes, I know it's fantasy vidya games but there are some absurdities that just break immersion.

I'm not going to complain about guys liking the female characters in games to be zeppelin boobs running around the battlefield in high heels, but I'm also not going to pretend it's not what it is. Though let's hear it for gender-equitable armour!

I'd argue that if a female character has comically big boobs and/or a comically skimpy outfit then it's done for the comic effect.

Maybe this is generalizing, but I suspect that the vast majority of women in committed relationships are turned off by their men showing sexual interest in other women.

Then maybe women shouldn't let themselves go so much.

I jest, of course. Obviously it's impossible for a flesh and blood woman in the messy real world to compete with stylized 2D depictions of idealized, flawless women who exist in worlds specifically designed to appeal and entertain (yes I know this only partially applies to Evangelion).

But then again I don't really jest. Women in committed relationships often take that commitment as a signal to let themselves go. Go all the way to ugly shrew hell. Maybe the same is true the gender-flipped way around as well, but I genuinely don't see that happen. Do women just jump ship in that case?

Maybe the same is true the gender-flipped way around as well, but I genuinely don't see that happen.

It's called a Dad bod.

But I doubt it explains the phenomenon I suspect is observable here, which I think is relatively recent.

The phenomenon I seek to explain is:

Why "It's fine" for a guy to like fanservice.

Why "You shouldn't expect a woman to just sit there and not complain about it."

I'm referring to the phenomenon I described i.e. unironic depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters becoming taboo/unpalatable in the eyes of normie women. Women in committed relationships getting turned off by their men showing sexual interest in other women is a thing as old as time, so I doubt it explains the issue I mentioned which I think is relatively recent.

Well, in that case, you are saying specifically that is not "fine" for someone with a female partner to like fan service.

Which, fair enough, if those are the boundaries you've established in your relationship. It's not unlike porn; some women are fine with their men watching porn, some are very much not.

But I'm talking about the phenomenon of women finding it objectionable for guys in general to watch it. @HereAndGone2 was not talking about her partner watching fan service, she's talking about being offended that she sees it.

Again, rather like porn: if you hate porn and wish it did not exist and wish men did not watch it, fine. But be honest about it, don't say "It's fine that it exists, I understand men like it, but also I will complain about it and try to shame men who enjoy it."

Women might be able to recognize that different people have different preferences. HereAndGone might not have a moral objection to fanservice in anime, which is indicated by "it's fine." But she and other women can dislike it. Some people might really like eating oysters and that's fine, no moral objection to eating oysters. But don't expect me to be comfortable sitting at a table with people slurping them down.

I don't know why people here see a contradiction here.

The shaming is the contradiction.

You might not like oysters, or want to watch people eating them, but presumably you won't make a point of letting oyster-enjoyers know how gross you think they are.

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Disagree; dread game is a PUA staple.

Dread game is the opposite of this actually - women dreading other women showing (elicited) sexual interest in their men.

That doesn't mean a woman likes it. A thing might make a woman behave temporarily in a way you like but that does not mean that she is content and happy, nor does she like the thing that triggered the change.

Or is everyone interpreting "turned off" as literal sexual arousal and not the general "I hate this and want to turn my head from this, not look at it, feel disgusted by this" way?

Offended and insulted, rather than necessarily turned off.

Turned off by their men showing sexual interest in other women in a low-status way, definitely. And slow-mo replay of the shower scene in an anime is as low-status as it gets.

But slow-mo replay of shower scenes in kdramas are a-okay! A man being offended by his girlfriend ogling at another dude's abs is also low-status, apparently. I'll reiterate @Botond173 that goonerbait targeting the female gaze is freely celebrated, and the expectation that men should "suffer" through it to make their girlfriends happy seems to be norm in many, many relationships. At least, in the west.

And also in South Korea presumably.

I think South Korea is still a bit equitable, they don't get as upset over male targeted goonerbait as western women do as far as I'm aware. I don't recall a domestic backlash against Stellar Blade for instance. Meanwhile in mainstream western media there's been far less female nudity in recent years, and way more male nudity, even in presumably male targeted IPs.

Edit: Relatedly. My theory is that mainstream TV, gaming, cinema, etc are a shared cultural space, a public park of sorts. If EVE is allowed in this space, where millions of normies could see her casually and frequently, it's culturally "okay" to publicly cater to the male gaze. Hence the push to stigmatise it, so you realise that designs and body standards that appeal to you are culturally taboo, you should be ashamed of liking them and only find them in porn.

Why is there a groping scene in the show? For the male viewers to get their thrills.

I'm guessing the intent was to inject light humor into an otherwise heavy scene that depicts the reality of depression.

Nah, he’s right about this specific example. The “groping” is part of a claustrophobic, unsettling segment where the protagonist finds his crush/teammate/mother figure living in a genuinely disgusting apartment. You’re supposed to ask what kind of human would live like this.

There’s plenty of shameless fanservice in the show, but this ain’t it.

Yeah, Evangelion is in part a story about the horrible inner experience of male teenage sexuality - it's unsurprising that a woman viewing it either wouldn't notice it at all and just see fanservice, or be disgusted enough to just look away and not think about it.

I suspect a show with an equivalent treatment of female sexuality would disgust most men, probably far more so given that they don't have "ugh, men" as an easily available response. Which makes me wonder, now that I think about it, because I can't think of a work like that (to be fair, my reading list is pretty male and not very teenage). If we were to do a 2x2, where you have Evangelion as male/negative and, say, Twilight as female/positive, what's the female/negative?

My wife is always showing me young adult fantasy books for women, ones that she loves because she grew up reading them. I'm like, for God's sake, why does every one of these books have to feature the protagonist getting her period? Almost no books about male protagonists feature them ejaculating for the first time.

It doesn't disgust me though, but I'm more irritated by the fact that women are so obsessed with their periods.

Wait, what’s the male/positive fantasy? Cause I think Eva is completely distinct from Twilight in ways which don’t fit on either of those axes.

Someone has definitely written grim, psychosexual coming-of-age stories for teen girls, but I’m not really sure what. Gone Girl and Lovely Bones are pretty different. Carrie? Any one of the interchangeable angsty pregnancy dramas? There’s got to be some shoujo out there which fits the bill.

Wait, what’s the male/positive fantasy?

Every mecha anime that predates NGE? "I didn't do anything special to deserve it, but I suddenly got a massive new body that can perform feats I never thought were possible, and now everyone looks up to me and treats me as the humanity's only hope."

There’s got to be some shoujo out there which fits the bill.

Dear Brother, which was, interestingly, a significant influence on Evangelion.

Honestly don't have an obvious candidate to mind, it's not the sort of fiction/movies I go for. The South African novel series Spud would be a good example, though it's aimed at kids of that age and very much not high art - Spud suffers through all the angst and pimples, but he ends up in a loving relationship and on course to as normal a life as one can live in SA. Generally the sort of people who do more artsy things tend to be older, and more focused on the negative, or at least the aporeic aspects of the psyche.

Stephen King is one of the absolute last people I'd go to for an accurate portrayal of that kind of interiority. I think insofar as a man can write this, the obvious go-to is Twin Peaks - except that Laura Palmer has to be this cipher, that we only learn about from others, precisely because Lynch can't be in that part of her head (note the extremely strong parallels between the EoE hospital scene and the scene of Laura putting on her stockings in FWWM, both beating you around the head with "I KNOW YOU'RE TURNED ON BY THIS CHARACTER AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT IT").

True crime?

Not really "about the horrible inner experience of [female] teenage sexuality", except, uh, maybe some true crime narratives I'd prefer not to read. Given the general higher cultural discomfort involved (as I typed that sentence with male/female I half-expected some jackass will call me a creep just for that), I'm guessing not a show, but a book by a woman author, maybe an Anna Kavan type. Maybe an arthouse film.

I hope someone here can answer this for me.

What are some good anime shows for someone who likes Dragonball Z, Death Note, YuYu Hakusho, JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, etc.? When I was in high school I was into anime like that but was never a complete die hard fanatic. Also, is there anime that leans on the somewhat conservative end of things?

Specifically for the issues you cite is why I could never get into anime as a subject in its totality.

Not mentioned yet is Black Clover. It has a really rough slow and boring start, but is good once it gets going. This is one of the few fighting animes my wife also enjoys, unlike Demon Slayer which is too bloody for her.

The Seven Deadly Sins is also a good action/comedy/sprinkle of romance with minimal blood and gore. Despite the name the setting is medieval european fantasy with arthurian flavor.

Well Dragonball Super is somewhat new to you. HunterxHunter, Naruto (make sure to look up and skip filler episodes), and Demonslayer are all adventure battle shonen as well. One Piece has too many episodes, and they stretched a lot of the content out too much for me to recommend the anime.

Dragon Ball Z and YuYu Hakusho are standard battle shonen shows (men beating the tar out of each other, training to become stronger, tournament arcs, etc.). If you liked them, you will probably enjoy similar titles like Naruto and My Hero Academia. MHA in particular has two notable advantages over older works; modern animation techniques (the fight scenes are gorgeous) and a seasonal episode structure (meaning less filler), so I'd start with that one.

Death Note is a very unique show; there is nothing else quite like it. Still, if you enjoy watching characters solve their problems by thinking, I'd recommend The Promised Neverland. Season 1 only; the second season is legendary for how bad it was, and the first season stops at a nice spot and gives enough closure. I wrote a longer review on /r/rational.

You don't have to worry about looking for specifically conservative anime, because anime as a whole is inherently conservative, especially compared with woke Hollywood; there is a reason why men fall in love with anime girls and Demon Slayer can outsell the entire American comic book industry. As AntiDem put it:

The appeal of anime is simple: It depicts a world with intact families, high trust, feminine women, politeness and good manners, public order, low crime, and a sense of mutual obligation between neighbors in a community - a world not slathered in gratuitous degeneracy and consumerism, peopled by unmarriageable women and increasingly angry men, which is in the process of careening toward disaster because a corrupt, ineffectual government is helpless in containing an uprising by violent lunatics hopped up on a fanatical ideology.

In the 20th century, people longed for a galaxy full of advanced technology which would take us to unknown worlds beyond the stars, and were inspired by television which showed it to us. In the 21st century, people long only for home and family, for peace and stability, for connection and friendship. To hell with the stars - just give us back the hearth and the dinner table. That is all we dream of now.

I encountered anime in the first year of my adulthood. It taught me that there was another path available - that people could behave differently than they had in my shattered family and the cold, brutal place where I grew up. That there were other ways to go through life than being selfish and angry all the time. That not every love between a man and a woman was doomed to end in bitterness and hatred. That people could be your friend for reasons other than wanting something out of you. That behaving honorably and sacrificing for the good of people around you isn’t just a thing that suckers do for ingrates. That not everybody breaks promises whenever they become inconvenient. That there are other approaches to the world than cynicism and irony. That not everything is a scam, and not everybody is out to hustle you.

Nothing in my life up to then had taught me any of that.

Still, if you are looking for something pastoral, try Princess Mononoke or Frieren: Beyond Journey's End.

anime as a whole is inherently conservative, especially compared with woke Hollywood

That link is anti-Jew and anti-black, and justifies itself using Hitler positively.

Also, black people actually like anime a lot.

Woke Hollywood is very jewish and black, and hates on Hitler.

Perhaps the emergence of anime as an alternate mainstream media is helping pacify the 20th century hostile proclivities of the urban blacks. It wouldn't be surprising if depicting your media antagonists as space monsters or goblins got better results on impressionable, young minds than literally the pillars of your society. As an added bonus literally any story is better than "there is nothing you can do, society is controlled by hostile forces that cannot be overwhelmed, all of these successful people you could look up to are actually oppressed and your only acceptable role in life is to forever complain".

And uh do you know who was allied with Hitler in WW2?

Hugely appreciate your contribution. Thank you.

The appeal of anime is simple: It depicts a world with intact families, high trust, feminine women, politeness and good manners, public order, low crime, and a sense of mutual obligation between neighbors in a community

This reminds me of how—to the extent Japan is Wakanda for white people—it’s because Japan is generally free of people who look like Wakandans.

It taught me that there was another path available

Taught, or gave hope for?

That behaving honorably and sacrificing for the good of people around you isn’t just a thing that suckers do for ingrates.

If only he knew how bad things really were/are.

If you’re a white male or an East Asian male in a non-Asian country (sometimes South Asian male too, depending on country), there’s a staunch contingent of people who insist that you should not only sacrifice yourself for ingrates around you, but also ingrates far away from you. A semblance of both of these is reflected non-consensually through taxes and transfers.

This reminds me of how—to the extent Japan is Wakanda for white people—it’s because Japan is generally free of people who look like Wakandans.

Japan is generally free of white people too.

Whites aren’t the ones whose increasing numbers make a place quickly unWakanda like with regard to “politeness and good manners, public order, low crime,” or at least not nearly at the same rate.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes, besides being the greatest anime ever made, is explicitly about conservative-inflected questions of political philosophy. If you like Death Note and Jojo the space battles (plenty of just as keikaku) should entice you enough to fall in love with the rest of it.

It should be added though that the two main heroic characters are decidedly anti-conservative in their temperament and actions.

I've been meaning to write an effortpost reviewing LotGH for years now, still haven't gotten around to it. But I would highly recommend the original anime adaptation over the remake. The remake was fine (only watched the first season) but the original is a masterpiece.

Ah yes, I tend to forget the remake exists. Testament to the uglification of modern animation.

Sounds like you enjoy shonens, mostly. It means "young man" but is often used more broadly to describe shows where fighting is the main appeal. You should look into One Punch Man, Jujutsu Kaisen (not conservative but it's similar to the ones you mentioned), Chainsaw Man, Attack on Titan (this one is pretty conservative, at least for the first three seasons). I'll also second Frieren and Demon Slayer.

Shonen is a demographic, not a genre. There are plenty of shonens that aren't about fighting, from sportsball shows like Haikyu!! to romcoms like Don't Toy with Me, Miss Nagatoro. The specific subset of shonen that focuses on combat is properly called battle shonen.

The five demographics of anime are shonen (young men), shoujo (young women), seinen (grown men), josei (grown women), and kodomomuke (little kids). "Young" here is used in the same sense that "Young Adult" is used for novels in the West; middle and high schoolers.

Try Hunter x Hunter. Kurapika's arc is a minor masterpiece. Gets very dark later on.

anime that leans on the somewhat conservative end

The early episodes of The Irregular at Magic High School do this very well.

Demon Slayer is a good one that I would highly recommend. Despite some of the extreme violence in the series, it is wholesome in a way that is hard to describe without watching it. And even though the main character often sympathizes with the plights of the various demons he is fighting, he never lets that blind him to the fact that they are horrifically monstrous creatures that need to be put down in order to protect the innocent.

Edit: Frieren is also a great one, and one that many people would consider "conservative". There was a moderate amount of screeching from the usual suspects on the left about how the demons in Frieren are portrayed.

I guess Gunsmith Cats has aspects that appeal to Red Tribe men.

The sub-genre you seem to like most is called Shonen. Some recommendations are here: https://gamerant.com/best-shonen-anime-to-watch/

Personally I highly recommend Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood. I thought it had a fairly conservative message all around, but not obnoxiously so. I mean, it does follow the law of conservation at least, (haha).

Dragonball Z had a lot of sexual stuff in it, but it might have gone over your head if you were a child. There were dramatic nosebleeds, an old man who was a pervert, etc.

No Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?

Gurren Lagann is my favorite counter to feminist complaints about media. Most pieces of media I hear their complaints about don't really fit the bill. Gurren Lagann, on the other hand, fully embraces a masculine worldview and is full of blatant examples of the "male gaze", thinly veiled phallic references, etc. And it shows you that all that stuff is actually totally super awesome and not the horrific evil feminists claim it is.

In fact if anything, feminism kind of maps on to the anti-spirals in the series decently well. And the ending of the series basically amounts to "Yeah maybe our capacity to continually grow and improve through our masculine strength and efforts is destined to inevitably destroy the entire universe, but we're going to make it not-inevitable through sheer force of masculine will".

Thank you for this. Your link hits the mark pretty well. Hell’s Paradise sounds like an awesome anime they describe. Full Metal Alchemist seems so-so. I tend to like linear plots that focus less on character development (Death Note did this well, though I found myself bored of the dialogue at times and liked the exchange of trickery between the characters) and more-so interesting ideas or power interactions between people or systems.

I fully got the references and innuendo in DBZ when I was younger, but it was nowhere near as extreme as much of the other anime you could find.

Fullmetal Alchemist had some really cool ideas. The story begins with a difficult problem and as the plot continues the problem seems to get more and more impossible and maybe not as important as some other things, but then main characters get out of the problem at the very end. The way they get out of the problem seems "correct" in hindsight but was also very cathartic and hard to guess ahead of time. There's one big magic system that everyone uses differently, along with some competent muggles who make things interesting.

I wouldn't write it off based on a blurb. I persist in recommending it, if only because it's fairly short for a shonen and you can probably figure out if you like it or not by the 5th episode or so.

I second the recommendation. FMA:B is one of the best anime series I've ever seen, bar none.

Dragonball Z was instrumental in teaching kids how the real world works. The guy who beat everyone up gets best girl, the autist is stuck with his childhood sweetheart, the short guy has to marry a robot, and the old guy that owns his own island is a giant perv.

Your girl will happily monkeybranch to and get knocked up by a stronger, more powerful man—even though he and his buddy just brutally assaulted and murdered you and a bunch of her lifelong friends, from which you were revived shortly thereafter through supernatural means. And that perhaps “even though” in the previous sentence can be replaced by “especially if.”

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