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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   21245 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 9, 2023

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The ABC's called it: the Australian referendum to enshrine special Aboriginal representation in the Constitution has utterly failed. They needed a majority nationally and a majority in four of the six states; they've gotten at last count 41% (possibly less; pre-polls are counted last, and while I wasn't expecting it they seem to have more No than the on-the-day vote) of the national vote and have lost in all six of the states (again, I was expecting Tasmania and/or Victoria to buck the trend - Victoria being the most urbanised Australian state, with 75% of its population in the state capital of Melbourne, and Tasmania having a long tradition of hippie-ism and being the birthplace of the Greens; they were also polling the highest Yes).

Most of the Yes campaigners - at least, those the ABC talked to - seem to be going with the line of "the No campaign was misinformation and this doesn't count because they were tricked"*. That's wrong (there were a few people with crazy ideas, of course, but for the most part what the SJers are decrying as "misinformation" is true or plausible), but it's at least wrong about a dry fact and not nearly as divisive as going "this proves Australia's a racist country".

The result does seem to have emboldened people to actually stand up against SJ; Opposition Leader Peter Dutton was very hesitant to go with No (though he eventually did), but in his speech upon hearing the result he specifically said that this result was Australians rejecting activists' claims.

At-least-partial credit to @OliveTapenade, who said:

If No wins, I think it will be taken as evidence that the Australian people are deeply racist and ignorant (hence the need for Truth)

...the last time we discussed this on theMotte. They mostly seem to be leaning on "ignorant" rather than "racist", but yes, they're saying "this demonstrates need for Truth".

*NB: this doesn't, for the moment, include Prime Minister Anthony Albanese; all he's said on the matter of "why No" IIRC is that referenda never succeed without bipartisan support.

One suggestion that occurs me, particularly as regards strategy, is this note:

This is key to understanding the Yes side. No decisions were taken without the authority of the key Indigenous leadership, including Pearson, Langton, Davis and Dean Parkin, who often made collective decisions in phone hook-ups and meetings separate from non-Indigenous members of the campaign.

These leaders formed the ballast of the government’s 21-member referendum advisory group charged with finalising the amendment and advising the cabinet on referendum strategy.

“Megan almost had veto power on some issues,” says one source unwilling to go on the record due to the current sensitivities.

I'm sure we've had discussion before of how excessive deference to identitarian concerns comes at the expense of competence of merit - this might be a good example of that.

But it's also potentially a good example of how celebrity or ego-driven campaigns can fail. Foreigners might not recognise them, but Noel Pearson, Marcia Langton, and Megan Davis are very prominent names that any Australian who's been paying a moderate amount of attention to indigenous issues would recognise. All three of them have been active in the field for decades.

However, the way the world looks from the relatively small world of professional Aboriginal activism - Pearson and Davis are lawyers specialising in indigenous issues, and Langton is a full-time activist - can be distorting, or might have contributed to poor judgement of the state of the Australian people. It might have been better for the Yes campaign if politicians or non-indigeneous campaign managers had been able to push back or develop other strategies. But a politics of deference, whether that's deference to Aboriginal people or deference to supposed subject-matter experts, cannot allow that.

They mostly seem to be leaning on "ignorant" rather than "racist", but yes, they're saying "this demonstrates need for Truth".

Yes: the BBC, having given both sides, puts the balance on the side of the "No" campaign being misleading:

Supporters said that entrenching the Indigenous peoples into the constitution would unite Australia and usher in a new era.

No leaders said that the idea was divisive, would create special "classes" of citizens where some were more equal than others, and the new advisory body would slow government decision-making.

They were criticised over their appeal to undecided voters with a "Don't know? Vote no" message, and accused of running a campaign based on misinformation about the effects of the plan.

... Many of the nation's best constitutional minds have disputed those claims, arguing that the Voice would not have conferred special rights on anyone.

But the campaign's slogan "divisive Voice" which covered No banners and posters, ultimately resonated with voters.

Having earlier themselves described the Voice as:

a proposal to amend the constitution to recognise First Nations people and create a body for them to advise the government.

How can you have a special body to advise the government and not have special rights?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67110193

As for misinformation, there were dirty tricks on both sides:

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/voice-to-parliament/yes23-campaign-deletes-tweet-suggesting-no-voters-could-put-a-cross-on-voice-to-parliament-ballot-after-aec-flagged-it-would-not-be-counted-as-a-formal-vote/news-story/fba4dbf82898246908f446f7232e4aaf

No leaders said that the idea was divisive, would create special "classes" of citizens where some were more equal than others, and the new advisory body would slow government decision-making.

that sentence is kind of ambiguous. i guess the last 'and' makes the reading a bit more clear because you would expect that to be an 'or' if the 'No' at the start was not part of 'No leaders'.

Journalists' job is not to be good writers, so they often don't use punctuation like inverted commas in such cases, even though it would help for the reason you suggest.

ABC (the Australian one) has a votemap by electorate. Unsurprisingly, electorates with the highest aboriginal population roughly correlate with an increased NO vote.

Heavy YES votes were concentrated in progressive areas, particularly those with low aboriginal populations (such as in inner Melbourne and Tasmania).

As discussed, there is muted sniping that this is somehow a racist result, rather than people voting against any group being given special privileges above other citizens, or against deliberately ill defined powers and the likelihood of additional spending being given to first nation people.

Aboriginals have been allocated additional resources and spending for multiple generations and still face huge disparities in quality of life and success (insert standard HBD argument here). Australia already has a federal ministerial portfolio to address their needs. Of course after all of this focus being met with little success, progressives wish to pour even more money into the pit by backdoor means such as through the voice to parliament. Thankfully it didn't pass the sniff test and Australians (for all of their cultural flaws) seem to still have working bullshit detectors. For now.

(insert standard HBD argument here)

While I don't believe it's the main reason, there is also the possibility that it's the help the aboriginals are getting that's causing the disparities in quality of life and success -- that is, "helping" is largely counterproductive.

(insert standard HBD argument here)

I think much of this doesn't even need the standard HBD argument of "evolution doesn't stop at the neck". Even if evolution does stop at the neck, Aboriginals had no cities and no domestic animals and thus were not selected for disease resistance to the extent Old Worlders were; same thing as why most Native Americans died in the Columbian Exchange. And they weren't selected for dealing with alcohol because TTBOMK they didn't have any. You don't even need to talk about the brain to get a biologicalist explanation of The Gap (whether or not that's the whole story, I'm not sure).

NB: I think there is cause to put at least some additional resources into figuring out ways around the effects I mention, even if I don't think a failure to get parity automatically equals being terrible. Having shitty immune systems isn't their fault.

I'm glad this lost despite the overwhelming support from most institutions but like all one-sided election results I get the impression (anecdotally) that people are reading too much into the result - on the left that Australians are all racist or heartless or at least misinformed, on the right that we've heroically stood up to say no to wokism or some such.

As much as I'd like to believe that Australians are categorically opposed to this kind of thing, the voice was polling 60-40 or better earlier in the year, so its failure probably comes down to swing voters being unhappy with the details - or lack thereof. I believe the median voter wants to help Aborigines - but they don't want to spend too much money on it or give a political blank check to the government.

on the right that we've heroically stood up to say no to wokism or some such

I think there's some degree of a respectability cascade going on, where SJ's hold over the populace through fear and guilt has been shaken and being conservative is starting to look more palatable and less like being a moral mutant. Note how terrified the Liberals were of actually taking the "no" side early on, but now Dutton's saying this is a victory over activists.

I don't think this is the entirety of the reason for the vote we got; there's causation both ways there, with the vote itself (and the polling) damaging the apparent SJ consensus - there's a reason I said it "seem[s] to have emboldened people" - and the proposal and Yes campaign sure did stuff up a lot. But it's got me hopeful. Still not really worth the price of having a giant CW fight, but silver linings.

I know we aren't supposed to make low effort posts, but you make sense, and your analysis convinced me to change my mind on this issue.

Note how terrified the Liberals were of actually taking the "no" side early on, but now Dutton's saying this is a victory over activists.

That kind of opportunistic "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" reaction (if the 'yes' side had won I'm sure he'd be claiming this was a victory for equality or the likes) reminds me of the pithy and tart bon mot by e.e. cummings:

a politician is an arse upon
which everyone has sat except a man

If the referendum had been just to acknowledge indigenous people in the constitution, I feel it'd have gotten over the line. Tying it to adding another body for Indigenous advocacy to the untold score of them that already exist was the issue.

...the last time we discussed this on theMotte. They mostly seem to be leaning on "ignorant" rather than "racist", but yes, they're saying "this demonstrates need for Truth".

Sorry to keep spamming replies, but I want to note directly that there at least some leaning on 'racist'.

For instance:

Meanwhile, the CEO of the Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service, Nerita Waight, said she was "horrified" by the result.

"In 2023, we had a chance to move forward rather than to stand still," she said.

"Australia voted today and now I clearly know what lies at this country's heart — racism.

"In my view, there is no way this doesn't impact detrimentally on the path to reconciliation and healing."

Or:

The big winners of this campaign are racism and misinformation. Before his term expired, the race commissioner Chin Tan called racism a “tentacled monster that feels impossible to slay, and its venomous nature seems to have only mutated in recent times”.

Tan said his greatest fears were realised and the debate was allowed to “degenerate into one about race”.

Or:

Many Indigenous people have maintained Australia is a racist country.

This is not to say every person who voted “no” on October 14 is a racist.

Motivations driving individual voting preferences are complicated, contested, perhaps even contradictory. We must be careful to not equate an individual “no” vote as a marker of individual racism. But ignoring patterns of racism and the relentless racist dialogue from some in the “no” campaign is to be wilfully, and knowingly, indifferent.

Racism is a drug, and Australia has an addiction.

Now to be fair, these are only a few voices, and the dominant line from the Yes campaign has been more muted. There are people who have taken other perspectives:

Yes campaigner Marcus Stewart, a Nira illim bulluk man of the Taungurung Nation and elected co-chair of the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria, said Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were hurting.

“It’s a tough result, it’s an emotional result,” he said. But he stressed that people who voted No were not racist.

“The Australian people have decided that the 92 words that were put to them wasn’t the best pathway that they saw for us to improve the lives of our people,” Stewart said.

“Australian people are not racist if they voted No. I want to be absolutely, categorically clear.”

Overall, I think now there is going to be a battle to interpret the result, and it no doubt will be ammunition for people who want to argue that Australia is systemically or structurally racist. But at least right now the claim that the defeat is because of racism appears to be more of a minority view.

Yeah, there was one on the ABC too. But the panellists pushed back really hard. I said "at-least-partial" intending to imply that full credit is arguable.

Kinda surprised to see that from Marcus Stewart. He's someone I usually expect to be pretty loose with accusations of racism (e.g. he accused the much-more-visibly-Aboriginal Jacinta Price of racism during the campaign).

I think there's going to end up being a split between the Labor types who recognise the need to win swing voters to get anything done and see how counterproductive the "everyone else is racist" argument is, and the Greens types who are more interested in being angry than getting wins.

Another supporting detail: the highest voted post on /r/australia right now is

The referendum campaign has cemented racism into the body politic, and the ‘baseless’ rejection of ‘Yes’ will create a bleak future for Australia and those who stood with First Nations people

although oddly it's the only post on the sub where people who voted No aren't being downvoted to oblivion. I can't understand the voting patterns on there.
What's the reputation of "The Saturday Paper?" Is it one of those online propaganda rags, or does it have an actual history? Their coverage page on this has been wild.

Reddit is dominated by the very young. This may give some insight into the future; unless the opinions of the younger generation change, we can anticipate that in twenty years, this No vote will be seen as racism, and they'll try again for a successful Yes.

But older voters aren't paying attention to this. They're dusting off their palms and throwing a shrimp on the barbie or whatever Aussies do.

  1. Reddit is dominated by a particular kind of young person. The question is how representative is the modal Reddit user compared to their cohort?

  2. As you allude to, will their politics age as they get older? Maybe a lot probably depends on whether you think their beliefs are deeply held or merely fashionable beliefs.

True. My sense is that woke attitudes correlate negatively with age, and from what I read, attitudes formed in young adulthood stick around. See for example https://thingstoread.substack.com/p/adolescence-lasts-forever

From that, I presume that Yes is going to gain some ground over the next few decades as No dies off. To me a bigger question is what the even younger generation will end up wanting or believing once Reddit goes the way of the Tasmanian Tiger.

we can anticipate that in twenty years, this No vote will be seen as racism, and they'll try again for a successful Yes.

And then another generation or so after that, the old "conservatives" will be valiantly-but-futilely trying to conserve the outcomes of that successful Yes against the next big move leftward. Cthulhu may swim slowly…

Well, I think a lot of what people refer to as leftward drift is, or is really, drift toward the kinds of attitudes that go along with wealth, security, and technological advancement. Even though the social foundation has been worsening for some time, technology continues to improve, creating a curious anxiety and helplessness in modern individuals.

But my guess is that the economy will soon drift downwards as well, spurring a rejection of hollow technological distractions, and giving rise to something that might look like conservatism, but isn't exactly - I don't foresee a return to religion, for instance.

I mean, Reddit major sub.

This might be surprising, but I actually hadn't heard of the Saturday Paper before this referendum. The impression I get is that they're pretty progressive - their original vision in 2014 reads as progressive to me.

This guide puts them as leaning left - about as much as the Conversation or Crikey, only slightly lower quality. Considering the quality of the Conversation or Crikey, I do not find being lower than them encouraging.That said, that chart also puts the ABC and SBS dead centre, which I doubt a neutral outside observer would, and putting The Age as dead centre also feels off, to me. The sense I always had in Melbourne was that The Age is the centre-left paper and the Herald Sun is the centre-right paper. It seems to me that the chart (which USC took from Reddit, of all places) is probably directionally correct, but what it labels 'center' is actually centre-left, and what it labels 'leans left' is actually solid left. This site also puts the Saturday Paper as on the left as well, which seems right.

You've already covered it, but like you as soon as I saw the left leaning ABC and SBS framed as centrist I knew the guide was biased in itself.

It's a left-wing/socialist paper I think.

I don't know if it was actually going to be called "the Voice" or if that was just a placeholder name, but it's so comically ominous. "There will be a Voice!" "We must consult the Voice!" "What will the Voice say?". Like something out of a Lovecraft story with a cult and an Old One.

I assumed the Yes campaign's insistence that the Voice would have no legal force was just a bad-faith position, as it's fairly easy to conceive of a dynamic where the Voice doesn't need legal force because it has the liberal media waiting to brand any government's disregard of the Voice as ipso facto evidence of racism, which will be used to declare that government's positions as morally illegitimate. When your enemy is campaigning to build a new weapon, don't vote to give it to him.

I don't know if it was actually going to be called "the Voice" or if that was just a placeholder name

Definitely "Voice". Let me quote the actual text of the proposed amendment:

There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice;

The term "Voice" is lifted from the Uluru Statement from the Heart. The word choice may have something to do with the significantly-aberrant Aboriginal use of English.

the Voice would have no legal force

Apparently I haven't been following this closely enough. Why were they bothering to have a referendum then?

As far as I can tell (from the full text quoted below), they don't actually have any power that a random Australian citizen lacks. Some guy could put together a club with his buddies, give it a fancy name, and carry out the same practices, create the same reports, and talk to the same people as the proposed "Voice".

Is there anything to it beyond a constitutionally-enshrined lobby group?

There was sort of this weird rhetorical loop between 'The Voice is a symbolic powerless body with no legal force' and 'The Voice will action real meaningful change due to its power' in which the former is probably more accurate but it never got firmly nailed down.

The constitution would require that the Voice 1) exist, though its specific form and powers would be up to parliament, and 2) be permitted to make representations to parliament and executive government. So it would be required to have access to government in a way that a random club would not.

That said, yes, beyond that it is toothless. There would have been no requirement for the government to take its advice in any way, and parliament would have the ability to disband, reform, or reconstitute the Voice at will.

It would probably have just been a publicly-funded indigenous lobby group in parliament. If it had passed I very much doubt it would have changed anything of note.

The lack of clarity around this is part of the reason it lost so badly. At least on the center and right there's also been some perception of the Voice as a possible Trojan Horse where in a few years a left wing government could give Aborigines a veto (or something less dramatic but still disruptive) and the High Court would shrug and say "Well, the constitution says Aborigines have a 'Voice', that could mean anything, so this is constitutional".

Considering that the voice's powers would have been whatever parliament decided they would be, "it would have no legal force" is a facile claim.

The constitutional amendment would have been:

Chapter IX Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples

129 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice

In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:

  1. There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice;

  2. The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples;

  3. The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.

So, yes, it would have been called the Voice.

Well, it was an exciting night.

It was a very solid result. Antony Green called it at 7:24 PM AEST, only 84 minutes after polls closed in the eastern states. Polls were still open in WA at the time the result was known. I'd say this is about the best result No could have hoped for - they crested 60% nationally, and achieved a full, six-state sweep. That's about the same margin of victory that same-sex marriage had back in 2017, except this was more difficult. SSM was a plebiscite (i.e. optional voting), not compulsory voting like this referendum, and SSM was overwhelmingly supported by media, government, academia, and so on. For No to achieve the same margin of victory with the entire population, and going against the will of the elite blob, is very impressive.

I'd like to suggest, though, that the No campaign not take too much credit for it. There are now Yes leaders specifically blaming the No campaign for the result - Marcia Langton is predictably blaming disinformation - but I'm not sure that's accurate. Even leaving aside that, as you correctly note, the refrain of "misinformation!" was itself sufficiently questionable, some might even say dishonest, as to qualify as misinformation, we have to reckon with the relative lack of power and reach of the No campaign.

Anecdotally - I'm from a Victorian electorate that went No with around a 53-47 margin. Yet the No campaign had almost no public presence here. Yes yard signs were relatively common. I visited two different polling booths on the day, and both had Yes signage and highly engaged Yes campaigners handing out flyers, but no No campaigners. Businesses put up large Yes signs in their windows and by their doors, but there was no equivalent for No. The Voice campaigns, on both institutional and grassroots levels, may be examples of Hanania's theory about cardinal preferences. For better or for worse, the Yes campaign seemed more organised and had a louder voice.

To step beyond the anecdotal for a second, just glancing at the endorsements is striking - Yes had so many more endorsements, including five out of six state premiers, a huge number of professional associations, pretty much every sporting club, all the big banks, almost every religious institution and charity, even the grocery stores. Financially, in terms of ad spend, Yes spent far more money than No did. Given the relative weakness of the No campaign compared to Yes, if the conclusion is indeed that Yes failed to get their message across in the face of opposition, then Yes must have been punching considerably under their weight.

Money aside, the No campaign does strike me as having been more effective than Yes, though. They were running a 'fear and uncertainty' strategy, but that was probably the right call for them. People vote No for a huge number of different reasons, and No doesn't need a one-size-fits-all argument. In general, however, they found a few central arguments (the Voice will divide Australians on the basis of race; the Voice is a vehicle for radical activists; the Voice is expensive and wasteful; the Voice is legally risky) and pushed them clearly enough. The No cause, if not the campaign, also did a good job presenting Aboriginal people themselves as harbouring legitimate differences of view about this. Remember that most Australians do not see or interact with Aboriginal people on a regular basis, so probably most people's image of Aboriginals is coming from media representation. The fact that this referendum made us all familiar with prominent Aboriginals in every camp - Conservative Nos like Jacinta Price or Warren Mundine, Progressive Nos like Lidia Thorpe or Michael Mansell, and Yeses like Marcia Langton, Noel Pearson, or Thomas Mayo - effectively disarmed the Yes campaign line that "this is what Aboriginal people asked for". (Even on polling day I saw Yes placards touting the claim that 80% of Aboriginal people support Yes - a figure that was known to be false at the time.)

The Yes campaign, on the other hand, badly struggled to make its case. I feel that one of its major issues was the inability to imagine the mindset of someone who disagrees or has doubts, and they often resorted to clichés. "If you listen to people you get better outcomes" is so generic as to be uncontroversial, but it doesn't speak to why a constitutionally-enshrined Voice is necessary for that. In other cases I felt they never quite reached the point - they argued that it should be constitutionally-enshrined so that governments can't get rid of it, but given that bodies like ATSIC were abolished with bipartisan support, it seems as though there might have been popular support for abolishing past bodies that failed. It's not clear why we should want to give up the power to abolish a body if it isn't working.

In other places I feel they fell for the fact-checker's fallacy - that if you can quibble the factual accuracy of a statement, that's somehow going to win an argument. I've talked about the way the argument went around race before - if you're responding to someone worried that it's wrong to divide Australians on the basis of something they can't control, like their race or their ancestral background, nitpicking "indigeneity is different to race" or "the word 'race' is already in the constitution" is going to be ineffective.

But overall I feel their biggest failure was, in a sense, typical-minding the entire country. It's understandable that Yes supporters have positive affect around the idea of Yes, but obviously other people don't, so appeals to moral righteousness or attempts to guilt-trip people aren't going to be effective. Take statements like this - McManus and Albanese ask for Australians to be 'decent', to 'show what a wonderful country this is', to 'show kindness', to show 'generosity of spirit', and so on. But anybody who believes that voting Yes is the decent, kind, or generous thing to do is already a Yes voter! You have to win over people who don't believe that! Anecdotally I had Yes-supporting friends telling me things like, "Ask yourself the old question, what would Jesus do?", apparently seeing it as obvious that that leads to a Yes vote. But it doesn't.

This is a refrain I make a lot of the time, but things are not obvious. I think the Yes campaign thought that Yes was obvious. But it wasn't.

Polls were still open in WA at the time the result was known.

My understanding is that this would be a bit like calling a US presidential election for the democrats when California hadn’t finished counting; California/WA has such predictable partisanship that you don’t really have to actually check.

It's not exactly like that - they didn't assume anything about what the WA result would be.

To pass, the referendum needed a 'double majority'. That means both a national popular majority (i.e. over 50% of all voters nationwide) and a majority of states (i.e. at least four of the six states need to vote over 50% in favour).

Polls closed at 6 PM in the eastern states, and results started coming in quickly. Tasmania and New South Wales were both rapidly called for No, and then South Australia was called for No shortly after. By that point, three states had voted No, which made it impossible for a majority of states to vote Yes. At that point even if literally every single voter in WA voted Yes, it would not have made a difference.

Anecdotally I had Yes-supporting friends telling me things like, "Ask yourself the old question, what would Jesus do?"

Do you mind if I ask if your friends were actually Christian themselves? I'm try to gauge how common these sorts of arguments are made by the agnostic and atheist.

Most people irl who say things like that are at least nominally Christian, although often not true believers. It’s only on the internet that there’s an epidemic of atheists using that argument for spurious reasons.

The person who told me that specifically was an old family friend who I'm close to via church. She's the local organist, and I sometimes preach and lead worship. So we're both Christians. That said, she is an extremely progressive Christian, whereas I'm more traditional, so we do have our theological disagreements. It would probably be fair to call her a churchgoing agnostic.

Thanks for this detail.

I don't disagree, particularly, on the No campaign per se, although I don't know all that much about it since my main source is the ABC which didn't want to talk about it very much (I suppose that's evidence in its own right). On the other hand, there are two people who I'd say do get quite a lot of the credit (or the blame, I suppose, depending on your allegiance) - Pauline Hanson and Peter Dutton. Hanson and One Nation did the hard work of being the first to say "no", which started an honest-to-God respectability cascade, and Dutton's JAQ and insistence on the booklets were masterful. I'm not saying I endorse Dutton's strategy - more Machiavellian than I'd like - but it was very effective (looking at the polling shows a pretty-clear effect from the booklets).

I think Jacinta Price did more than anyone. The fact that she was against it so strongly and so early, was able to articulate the reasons why so well, and was visibly Aboriginal herself was in my view a major factor in getting the Nationals and then the Liberals to commit to a No position.

Honestly something that amused/amazed me on the life outcome gap between Indigenous & Median Australians is that it's about the same size as other countries with their Indigenous populations, regardless of treaty, reconciliation, privileges etc.

Maoris have about the same gap

The issue with aboriginals is that the urban population is full of whites with distant aboriginal ancestry (almost uniformly 75%+ European) using their newfound (they certainly wouldn’t have considered themselves aboriginal in 1973) identities for the usual grievances / racial spoils, and the rural population, where almost all aboriginal Australians who are half or more native live, deals with the same problems as every indigenous community from Greenland to Hawaii (principally alcoholism, drugs and - a less charitable commentator would say - fecklessness).

The problem is that modernity is unavoidable (especially in the developed world) and so when presented with the choice of continuing their harsh, strenuous pre-modern existence (as much as that might even be possible) or living off welfare and getting drunk all day, they pick the latter. It’s sad that visitors can no longer go to an Indian reservation and - outside of certain exhibits - witness the natives living in tipis and wearing carefully sewn native fabrics and headdresses and whatever, but let’s be real, that takes a lot of work compared to buying $2 t shirts made in Bangladesh. And, in defense of the natives, there are plenty of Europeans who similarly live off welfare and spend their days drunk or high, too.

Really, though, the above are just a few years ahead of the rest of us. If we survive the singularity then we, too, will spend our lives on our little reservations, everything provided from above, occupying our time in what will probably be ways no less degenerate than the average dweller in an aboriginal settlement somewhere in the northern territories.

the above are just a few years ahead of the rest of us. If we survive the singularity then we, too, will spend our lives on our little reservations, everything provided from above

It's worth considering that the rickety, shitey-arse state of many reservations etc. is as much the result of incompetence, indifference and bad faith from conquerors, as it is the inherent fecklessness of indigenes. Perhaps a hyper-competent, hyper-intelligent robot overlord would simply provide a better standard of reservation.

Competently-administed mandatory eudaimonia would actually be a wise policy on the part of any hypothetical roboking that was disinclined towards genocidal eradication. To keep humans in a sub-par state of flourishing would mean less predictability - there's always the chance of some freak behaving who-knows-how. Having all the decorative/ethically-sourced humans in a state that is the absolute pinnacle of human excellence means you can plan accordingly, and the odd freak won't "hop the fence" so to speak.

Even that practical concern aside, I think an AI inclined to keep us would probably keep us well. And for the humans, this is a life at least as fulfilling as that experienced by all the chaps in the old testament, in Greek myth, etc - a life of challenge, overseen by known gods. Not too bad really.

I kinda disagree that the conquers were negligent. I think that humans without a purpose, who have everything handed to them end up in a state rather like zoo animals. They no longer need those behaviors that produce flourishing in the wild state, so they no longer really do them. The6 become essentially domesticated in the sense that they simply expect things to be handed to them rather than going out and getting them, and expect the keepers to maintain and build their life for them.

That might explain why the aboriginals use substances instead of working(at least partially; I doubt there are many jobs to be had near the reservations), but the squalor of their conditions is because the Australian government herded them into the middle of nowhere, in one of the least densely populated countries in the world, and proceeded to provide squalid conditions instead of nice ones.

It might be unrealistic to expect government housing for an entire ethnic group to be nice middle class suburbs, but ‘it sucks because they ruined it for want of something to do’ requires evidence that they did in fact ruin it instead of it just being cruddy to begin with.

Having lived in Darwin for a while, there was an essentially never-ending loop of 'Nice new accommodation is built for local indigenous, indigenous move in, Indigenous culture around extreme sharing within groups and territorial violence between groups leads to nice new accomodation becoming teeming slum, nice new accomodation is built'

Not negligent per se; let's just say they didn't sincerely prioritise the flourishing of those they hadn't the heart to murder.

Suppose for example I'm the governor of some territory with a load of indigenes and colonists. Even if I set aside a physical space for the indigenes and make some financial allowance for basic medical treatment and what-have-you, there just aren't enough men or dollars or hours in the day to really ensure the indigenes' flourishing.

An AI will only be able to conquer and master humanity if it is significantly more capable than us. Consider how we might expect, say, a mediaeval army versus a modern polity to care for spare people in their charge. Now consider than any humanity-beating AI would be far more competent than a modern state, and by a much greater degree than the modern state outclasses some mediaeval horde.

I think an AI good enough to beat us could also husband us well without breaking a sweat.

I don't think it's true that a purposeless life need be as squalid as those of many modern indigenes - many perfectly nice and even quite good lives don't have any purpose that's apparent to their possessors. And honestly, life in divine obedience to a real machine God seems at least as purposeful as any of the religions of the book. I reckon it would beat "modern hedonistic self-actualisation" too.

I didn’t say that, I think the purposeless people in those conditions, no matter how “nice” you make them or how “well kept” they are will eventually turn even a middle class suburb condition into a shithole given enough time. Humans simply are not built for idleness, no animals are. And animals unable to act upon their instincts fend to have mental issues and end up creating worse conditions.

Right, so the AI creates busywork for humanity.

It works for dogs. Dogs that have jobs even if it’s just competitive frisbee or obstacle courses or herding tend to be better adjusted than pets left at home.

Sorry, that was a failure to convey tone correctly on my part - I agree with the busywork proposal, I wasn't being facetious. Perhaps some holy commandments like an obligation to pray x number of times per day etc

I have to wonder if this is going to end up like Irish referenda on social liberalisation (e.g. divorce); the pro- side argue each time that the loss doesn't represent the true views of the country, that there was misinformation and fear mongering and outside interference, and they're going to go again. Then eventually after a series of votes, where they finally get "yes" by a very slim majority - that's it. The people have spoken. No more referenda, this is now the law of the land, sorry "No" side you had your chance and don't get another chance to campaign (unlike us who got three or four goes to get the result we wanted).

I will be interested if the pro-Voice side push for another vote down the line in X months/year's time.

I think the Voice proposal is dead. It was a shitty idea, pushed more for "something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it" reasons than genuine conviction I think. There will continue to be efforts to get treaties or whatever other idea comes along, but that's it for the Voice.

For comparison, the rejected Republic referendum back in the 90s really did kill the Republican movement. Even 25 years later, with the Queen having passed away, there is still no heat or energy behind the idea of getting rid of the monarchy.

Is that actually what happened in Ireland? Or did support for the pro side grow over time, and then continue to grow even after they won the referendum, making campaigning for a reversal pointless? Considering the 2019 referendum to further reduce divorce requirements was a blowout with over 80% approval, I somehow don't see a reversal of the 1995 referendum as likely to win more than 10% of the vote.

My point is less about "did support grow" (yes, like the rest of the world, we were not unaffected by 'whiskey! democracy! sexy!') but that the side advocating for the change insisted after every reversal that they weren't going to stop campaigning until they got the result they wanted, and when they did get it, suddenly now no further votes were needed or wanted. Following figures pulled out of my backside but 'We lost by 60% to 40%, the struggle is not over" until "We won by 51% to 49%, that's it, this is now immutable unchangeable law and we don't need any further votes on this, and the No campaign can just go away".

That's in part why I am so rigid on "not an inch"; after abortion was legalised (to a limited extent in my country) all the public appeal about "well this is only for really hard cases and it will be limited and no it's not going to lead to abortion on demand" was dropped and the activist groups were quite clear, and publicly said so, "This is only the first step, we're going to continue until we get the liberalised abortion we want".

There is never any 'we only want this one small concession, why are you being so inhumane and heartless?'.

Which referenda are you thinking of? Gay marriage passed in 2015 with a healthy majority (there was only one county in which the No vote achieved a majority), and abortion passed in a landslide in 2018.

Not to dispute the existence of the phenomenon you're describing. My uncle lives in the UK and is every inch the archetypal Guardian reader. He's been insisting for the last seven years that the Brexit referendum was illegitimate because of Russian interference/"misinformation"/whatever you're having yourself. Although I think the prospect of the UK campaigning to rejoin the EU is effectively nil.

Gay marriage passed in 2015 with a healthy majority

Yeah, and both major parties supported it, which is a huge sea change in public opinion within my own lifetime. So the constant 'we are an oppressed minority living in a church-run society which is bigoted against us' script is quite plainly untrue, yet it keeps being pulled out whenever new changes are proposed.

Could not agree more.

Albanese's said he respects the result and the will of the people; he's not going to try it again this term (trying it again would also pretty much guarantee that that 60% would vote against him come the next election, and I don't think he's that stupid).

Down the track, who knows. Do note that Australia is TTBOMK the only country to repeal a carbon tax, so our right does actually roll things back from time to time (even if I might not agree with that particular rollback).

Do note that Australia is TTBOMK the only country to repeal a carbon tax, so our right does actually roll things back from time to time (even if I might not agree with that particular rollback).

I'm one of the more lunatic environmentalists on this site and I even supported rolling back the carbon tax. The carbon tax doesn't do anything to actually slow down the burning of carbon in any real way, it just gives a bunch of extremely rich people the ability to play financial games and suck some money from the public teat.

Ultimately this is always the nature of the game with progressive causes; opposing them requires constant vigilance and to win every single conflict, while they only require one (quite possibly gamed and/or cheated) win, and then that's it, the ratchet has advanced and never shall it relent. Anyone who tries to roll things back is painted as a vile fascist dictator trying to remove 'human rights' (that didn't exist until 5 seconds ago).

This is possibly why the Supreme Court abortion thing hit progressives so hard, because this is never supposed to happen.

This is possibly why the Supreme Court abortion thing hit progressives so hard, because this is never supposed to happen.

And why pro-life pregnancy centers receive so much ire. They are not exactly neutral institutions, but the vast majority of the things they do seem to be genuinely charitable(eg providing diapers to poor mothers), whether or not you think the state should be subsidizing them. It’s simply that pretending partisan advocacy NGO’s are just basic charity organizations and the only reason to ever oppose them is because you’re evil and hate whatever charitable work they supposedly do is only supposed to work in one direction.

Honestly I don't believe this entirely. The issue of try-try-try again-pass is real yes, but as Brexit shows it's an advantage inherent to the "Anti-Status-Quo" stance rather than inherently an advantage for progressives.

The problem is that conservatives believe you can just rest on your laurels and do nothing whatsoever to uphold your beliefs beyond voting, while progressives understand that to win you have to fight for your beliefs every single day. If conservatives tried half as hard to ban gay marriage as the progressives did to legalize it, it would be illegal.

Progressives collectively throw hundreds of billions of dollars towards their social goals, have numerous people whose entire lives and careers are dedicated to furthering the cause (many of whom abandoned more profitable avenues to do so) and have millions more who make art, put the values into their work, make public displays of loyalty, etc. Conservatives aren't even in the same ballpark of effort and commitment.

The sole exception would of course be Christian Evangelicals, who do all the same things progressives do to to actually attempt to win. And would you look at that, they did in fact get Roe v Wade overturned! Turns out conservatives can win if they actually care and put their money where their mouth is!

What I'm trying to get at is that "well this vote shows the people do/don't want this thing" only applies to the "anti-" side of any proposal after the "pro" side get their victory. I understand this tactic, but I don't see how you can shift from "we don't agree with this result so we'll keep going till we get the one we want", to "this result is now written in stone and can never be challenged". Unless you don't care a whit about the charge of hypocrisy and can be certain the tame media will never apply it to you, but always and only to your opponents.

That's my takeaway on the whole abortion debate: "why can't both sides compromise?" Well, because for one side, 'compromise' means 'surrender your principles, give us what we want, but we won't give you anything in return'.

"Why don't you permit abortion for rape/incest/threat to life of mother?"

(1) You don't? Heartless monsters who hate women and want them to die! (2) You do? Okay, you've already given in on the permissibility of abortion, that means you have no principled objection, so why not give in on the other cases we want? If you don't, then you're a hypocrite!

"If you really thought abortion was murder, why aren't you bombing clinics/putting women who get abortions in jail/executing abortion doctors?"

(1) You don't? Ha ha, you hypocrites! So that means you're lying and you don't have any principled objection to abortion, you only hate women and want to punish them for their sexuality! (2) You do? You heartless monsters! You hate women and want to punish them for their sexuality!

Progressives collectively throw hundreds of billions of dollars towards their social goals

They can do this because it's other people's money. They've infiltrated corporate and government institutions and act as corrupt agents, turning them towards the goals of the left instead of the nominal goals of the organization.

Currently that is the case, and my only response is "Yes, and if Conservatives cared enough they'd be stealing our money to fund pet causes too."

But it wasn't always true. The early progressive movements were largely funded by progressives, progressive sympathizers, and donations by those who supported the associated causes. Conservatives could do the same, but they don't. An expected counterpoint would be the funds seized from the trucker protest but 1. That's not America, and 2. You have to actually put money towards building power structures (like the Federalist Society), not just in response to a single politically hot event.

The progressives aren't about to let the conservatives pull the same trick; now that they've done it, they've closed the door to conservatives doing it. Progressive organizations get to engage in conspiracies in restraint of trade with no one blinking an eye. Conservative organizations get the stink-eye from the IRS.

I don't entirely disagree with this, though I would say it occurred largely because conservatives didn't care enough about their own values to maintain them. They could have done what progressives are doing now, but failed to do so, and instead let sinful behavior take control of the most powerful state to ever exist.

The solution now is to find new tricks, new takeover methods, that the opponent doesn't see coming. It is a war after all. You can't just reuse the old methods identically, but there are consistently functional principles that are timeless.

The solution now is to find new tricks, new takeover methods, that the opponent doesn't see coming.

And if no such things exist to be found?

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It is a war after all.

Sometimes the enemy just outclasses you.

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One of the things that was remarkable about this campaign was how overwhelming the Yes campaign's resources were. Over the course of the campaign I saw ads and billboards and people handing out pamphlets and even a choir promoting the Yes case. In comparison I saw exactly one (1) bumper sticker for No and nothing else. At the polling booth there were half a dozen volunteers for Yes and the whole fence was blanketed with their signage while No had one guy with one sign. And I've heard there were other polling places that didn't even have that.

I really wish people would learn that all this campaign paraphernalia is completely worthless, and arguably counterproductive. It was extremely clear the people with money and power wanted a Yes victory, but that doesn't actually convince anyone.

The proposal was the result of starting with the idea of putting Aboriginals in the constitution and then jerry-rigging it into an advisory body after people complained that they wanted something practical, but also trying not to do anything concrete or specific that could offend someone. It was a mess of an idea and really someone should have had the balls to stop this process before it got to this point instead of shunting off the responsibility of putting it down to the voting public.

I don't feel any joy in this result, though it's the outcome I voted for. We've had a bunch of angst and drama for no gain, and it seems clear no one is going to learn anything from the experience. All the talking heads are busy convincing themselves that the problem is somehow the sales job and not the product. No one is even thinking to ask if maybe it just wasn't a bit implausible that you needed a constitutional amendment to create an advisory committee, or that an advisory committee was going to somehow fix all the massive problems Aboriginal Australia faces. Maybe we just need to lecture people not to be racist harder next time. Yeah, that'll work.

...Australia allows campaigning at the polling place? That's an absolute no-no in Finland, you can't even walk in to vote wearing your preferred candidate's pin.

There's a 6 metre buffer zone outside the actual school hall/whatever that is being used as a polling place. So it's routine to run a gauntlet of campaigners trying to shove paper in your hand as you walk through the gate. It annoys a lot of people.

There's an old Chaser sketch exploring different ways to try to get through unscathed.

Only six meters? In Texas the electioneering exclusion zone is the same as the exclusion zone for guns, and people are regularly sent to the bathroom to turn political shirts inside out before being allowed to vote. Political action committees produce lists of endorsed candidates on unofficial letterhead(that is it doesn’t say ‘vote for real true conservatives’) so they can be carried into the polling booth.

Yeah, only six metres. And you're allowed to take party political material in with you - it's routine for parties to give out "how to vote" cards recommending an ordering of candidates (e.g. us first, our allies second, weirdos and fringe candidates in the middle, and our enemies at the bottom) to voters walking in.

We have ‘how to vote’ cards too, they’re just plain black and white with no letterheads or logos of a political party or advocacy group of any sort. It would be illegal to carry a flier into a poll booth but you can have a list to remind yourself.

(I know you specifically don't need to know this, but for non-Australians reading, I hope this is helpful.)

I'll add that the how-to-vote cards do have a practical function. Firstly, Australia's voting system is relatively complex compared to countries like the US, so having a little more advice on how to correctly fill out a ballot seems reasonable. Secondly, we have preferential voting, and one of the purposes of how-to-vote cards is to explain how the party would like you to vote.

Let me give a specific example - here's a Labor how-to-vote card for the 2015 Canning by-election. For a vote in Australia to be valid, it has to number every box in order. If you just write a '1' in the box of your favourite candidate, your vote will not count. However, there are twelve candidates in Canning! Twelve! Is the average voter really going to research every one of them and rank them in order? The how-to-vote card tells you how the Labor Party would like you to rank all the candidates. If you already know you want to vote for Labor, why not follow their advice?

Canning is an extreme case - there usually aren't twelve candidates. But anecdotally, I find that in my electorate it is usually somewhere between five and seven, and that's still a lot. Thus every party gives out cards like this.

The better cards, in my opinion, also give a little bit of information on the candidate's or party's platform, but that's up to the party. Still, they do have a useful role in educating and streamlining the voting process.

That said one worthwhile sidenote is that because a lot of voters just follow the order that their preferred party says, the people who decide the orders on the how-to-vote cards can have a lot of influence - this is where so-called preference deals can have a big influence. Often the parties will negotiate with other behind the scenes a bit for their preferences, and it can have a significant impact.

Obviously none of this matters for a referendum, because there aren't any parties and a referendum is a straight Yes/No question, but it is an interesting quirk of the way the Australian electoral system works.

For a vote in Australia to be valid, it has to number every box in order. If you just write a '1' in the box of your favourite candidate, your vote will not count.

Whoa really? Where I live there have been occasional rumblings about switching to preference voting, and I've mostly been agnostic about it. But this part seems like a negative, to me. If it's clear who someone meant to vote for, the vote should count.

I'm curious what the reasoning is here? Is this specific to Australia? Something to do with mandatory voting?

That's just how it works in Australia. To my knowledge, when preferential voting is proposed overseas, as in the UK Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, the proposal has been for optional-preferential voting, rather than our mandatory full-preferential system. Likewise I believe New York uses optional-preferential rather than full.

As to why that's the way it works here, I don't know specifically.

We adopted preferential voting with the Commnowealth Electoral Act of 1918, after WWI - the intent was that, since politics of the day were a relatively unified Labor Party which would likely win a plurality vote every time against a gaggle of competing alternative parties, preferential voting was necessary to ensure fair representation. In 1918 the Nationalists were in power, and there had just been a by-election which Labor won with only a third of the vote, against two conservative candidates who split each other's vote. Preferential voting was intended to prevent travesties like that. Naturally Labor opposed it at the time, but today both major parties are solidly behind it.

(Interestingly, the general dynamic of Australian politics still mostly holds today, in that Labor is consistently the biggest individual party, and it's opposed by a rough coalition of not-Labor parties, which today are called the Coalition. The general structure of Australian politics has been the interests of labour, represented by the Labor party, against the interests of capital, represented by the National/Country/United Australia/Liberal/Whatever party. That said, this might be changing as over the last few decades, Labor have been increasingly losing touch with their earlier working-class and union base, and both major parties are seeing their primary votes collapse, as voters leave the big parties for more ideological alternatives.)

Anyway, I don't know why we chose full-preferential voting in 1918. For better or for worse, we did, and no one seems to want to risk touching the electoral system today. So it's likely to stay.

(We did not have mandatory voting in 1918 - that was introduced in 1924, after the 1922 election only had 60% turnout, which at the time was considered extraordinarily low, and indeed too low to give the government a real mandate. I realise that sounds quaint now with countries like the United States usually showing sub-60 turnout - I guess it just goes to show what a different time it was.)

I use the how-to-vote cards to triangulate minor parties' and independents' positions based on the patterns of how major parties rank them. I'm a relatively-high-information voter as regards the major parties' positions (for 2022, once my single-issue-voting plan failed due to hearing crickets from all parties, I went through all the online platforms - or at least, four of them, since I seem to recall the UAP not even having one, and I don't think I checked the Nats since for some reason Bendigo gets Libs), but minor parties and independents are harder and I usually don't bother.

One thing I will note about preference deals is this: there used to be a cordon sanitaire against preference deals with One Nation (I recall the Libs putting One Nation last under Howard), but it collapsed and the Liberals now preference One Nation second.

It is hilarious that preferential voting which was a Reddit fan favourite of 2010s and was surely going to herald true democracy…. ended up creating more backroom politics

What’s the problem with it though. In effect some uninformed voters voluntarily hand their preferred parties the power of their residual votes to use as they see fit, along with the main one. If the voter himself says : ‘I’ve seen all I wanted to see, go to the backroom’, it’s not really backroom politics.

It also succeeds at doing the thing it is meant to do - preventing vote-splitting from making third parties counterproductive.

E.g. the seat of Pumicestone in the 2017 Queensland election gave the most votes to the left wing Labor candidate (the amusingly named Michael Hoogwaerts), with 35%. The right wing vote was split between the Liberal National candidate with 30% and the even more right wing One Nation candidate with 23%.

FPTP would have given the seat to Labor, despite most voters voting for a right wing candidate. Instead, the Liberal National won it on preferences.

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For what it's worth I do think preferential voting is superior to first-past-the-post, but you're right that it does not end or remove backroom deals. I don't believe there's any form of democracy, or even of government entirely, that's immune to scheming and dealing behind the scenes.

In this specific case, alternative vote (i.e. not requiring every box be filled) would be an alternative to Australia's mandatory full preferential voting that would significantly weaken the power of preference deals.

One of the things that was remarkable about this campaign was how overwhelming the Yes campaign's resources were.

The amount of resources there are behind progressive politics is pretty much always immense, basically every influential institution was supporting Yes. At the entrance of my train station, there were Yes campaigners outside for days, handing out flyers to people. Even bodies that should strictly be impartial such as local governments (City of Sydney) were putting up advertisements all over the place telling people to support the Voice, which is frankly inappropriate and clearly overstepping the bounds of their ambit. As you note, it ended up being very clear that this was not some grassroots campaign for change, but a well-funded, dominant group filled with people who have an overwhelming influence over what the public gets to hear and see.

It's also very clear that the well-funded progressive elite, the people who populate the opinion-setting parts of the media, academia, and various other institutions, have hugely lost touch with the rest of the country and simply don't care to listen to them. Then every single time people turn against their policies, there always seems to be such a great amount of surprise and dismay that people would disagree with them, and a knee-jerk assumption that the reason for lack of support can simply be chalked up to stupidity or racism. Perhaps some of it is performative, but I do think that they really believe it.

It's also very clear that the well-funded progressive elite, the people who populate the opinion-setting parts of the media, academia, and various other institutions, have hugely lost touch with the rest of the country and simply don't care to listen to them.

From the descriptions of the amount of resources thrown behind the yes campaign(eg people handing out fliers in train stations for days) it almost sounds more like it was people who don’t have day jobs.

and simply don't care to listen to them.

Well, why should they listen to the opinions of a mass of inferior peasants, if they "really believe" those opinions are driven by stupidity and racism? If you have power, why not enforce the objectively correct and moral position over the objections of the ignorant and the wicked?

The issue is that this kind of rhetoric and behaviour only really helps you gain status within a peer group that already agrees with you, it doesn't help get people on board. It may be fashionable to dehumanise your outgroup and form representations of them as evil and stupid that justify not listening to them or trying to sympathise with their concerns. But the reality is that if you fail to try and properly understand the rest of the country, and form caricatures of them that simply do not align with how they really think and act, you're almost certainly not going to be able to convince them nor will you be able to convert people to be in favour of your policy proposals.

The entire Yes campaign has seemed to believe that the morality of an indigenous Voice is so self-evident that they don't even need to try and form much of a coherent argument in favour of why it's a good decision (well, outside of empty sympathy-mongering, sloganeering and other such tactics that attempt to substitute actual argument for emotional appeal, I believe @OliveTapenade has covered that topic in detail in this thread and in previous ones too).

One of the main arguments I see in favour of the Voice is that Indigenous outcomes are poor, it's the fault of whites and therefore Something Needs To Be Done. But even accepting the premise that the Indigenous deserve something, it doesn't answer the question of why what they deserve is a constitutionally mandated lobbying group that exists to promote their interests and their interests alone (especially considering the failure of ATSIC to solve these problems and how it became a corrupt, mismanaged fuckfest). Australia pumps lots of money into Indigenous causes all the time, does this not already constitute help? It's also unclear why providing help even requires any amount of differential treatment based on race at all (if the Indigenous are disproportionately poor, any policy focusing on socioeconomic status instead of ethnicity will also disproportionately help the Indigenous while also not neglecting other Australians in need). The woke arguments simply have not addressed these issues and do not stand up to this kind of scrutiny. Regurgitating empty platitudes about "listening to people affected" are not arguments, they are slogans, and not particularly convincing ones either.

The reality is that it's not as clear cut as they think, and their failure to make sensible arguments in favour of the policy or properly acknowledge the arguments of their opponents drives home to people just how intellectually vacuous the argument in favour of the proposal is and has always been. It really seems like Yes just can't conceive of reasons why one would vote No, and instead of actually dealing with the core-level issues inherent to the proposal they are supporting it mainly on vibes alone.

This is what I mean when I say they have "hugely lost touch with the rest of the country". Of course, I won't interrupt my enemies in the middle of making a mistake.

it doesn't help get people on board.

…

you're almost certainly not going to be able to convince them nor will you be able to convert people to be in favour of your policy proposals.

So what? So long as you have your fellow elites on board, you can just use your power as elites to force what you want on the powerless peasant masses. You don't need to "convince" or "convert" the peasant masses, just find ways to punish them for being ignorant bigots and voting wrong until enough of them eventually vote your way — assuming that, as it seems to be in this case, that you can't just impose your goals through the permanent bureaucracy, courts, academic consensus, or other such powerful institutions more insulated from democratic feedback.

"Democracy" is, and always has been, more of a sham than a reality. Society is always ruled by a small elite, and that elite always ends up getting their way, and the masses are pretty much always just powerless peasants who can do nothing but submit. Why should lords, with their superior breeding and wisdom, bother to listen to the ignorant opinions of dirty, stupid peasants, as opposed to just whipping the low-born curs into compliance?

So long as you have your fellow elites on board, you can just use your power as elites to force what you want on the powerless peasant masses.

Probably the wrong time to be making this claim, seeing as the powerless peasant masses just beat the elites handily.

The issue is that this kind of rhetoric and behaviour only really helps you gain status within a peer group that already agrees with you, it doesn't help get people on board.

Does the evidence pan out there? The impulse to avoid shame and being seen as part of a low-status group seems quite strong (e.g. I'd consider it the finisher of old school internet atheism, "in this moment, I'm ecstatic" or how that one went), and I don't know if the current Moral Majority was ever particularly more conciliatory on the path to its present degree of mass support. (If you do accept them as the descendants of the hippies of yore, they were already calling their outgroup fascists back in the late sixties!)

A lot probably depends on how many members of their remaining opposition still subscribe to their status hierarchy, and either side has a correct feel for this figure.

If you do accept them as the descendants of the hippies of yore, they were already calling their outgroup fascists back in the late sixties

I remember once watching a rerun of an episode of Dragnet — which ran back in the 50s — with a couple of proto-hippy California college students calling Joe Friday a "fascist pig."

A lot probably depends on how many members of their remaining opposition still subscribe to their status hierarchy, and either side has a correct feel for this figure.

Or how many notables among their remaining opposition can be subjected to sufficient negative consequences as to make others among the opposition switch sides out of fear of the same — "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey" and such.

But even accepting the premise that the Indigenous deserve something, it doesn't answer the question of why what they deserve is a constitutionally mandated lobbying group that exists to promote their interests and their interests alone (especially considering the failure of ATSIC to solve these problems and how it became a corrupt, mismanaged fuckfest). Australia pumps lots of money into Indigenous causes all the time, does this not already constitute help?

The standard reply to this was, "This is what they asked for."

If you suggest that a legislated Voice would do, the reply is to note that the Uluru Statement asks for 'a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution'. To counter with any other suggestion would be patronising and even racist, whitefellas once again failing to listen and telling Aboriginals what's good for them.

You might ask the question whether or not the Uluru Statement actually reflects the desires of most indigenous people. You might also argue that democracy is inherently a process of deliberation and compromise between different interest groups and there is nothing clearly racist about replying to a suggestion with, "We don't think that's practical at the time, but here are some alternatives that meet you halfway." However, I think the Yes campaign was very hung up on the idea that this is definitely the one thing that Aboriginal people asked for, and that it is so fundamentally reasonable that no one could possibly object to it. Both those ideas seem blinkered to me.

Ironically, at the time in 2017, Malcolm Turnbull's response was to say that "the government does not believe such a radical change to our constitution’s representative institutions has any realistic prospect of being supported by a majority of Australians in a majority of states". Despite being roundly criticised for that at the time, six years on it appears that he was entirely correct. Perhaps the drafters of the Uluru Statement might have done better to do some listening of their own, and consider what Turnbull - a sympathetic politician - was telling them was practically possible.

The standard reply to this was, "This is what they asked for."

I'd add that what people deserve is a matter that is able to be litigated, not a matter that is unilaterally decided by the beneficiary and that everyone else is obligated to blindly agree with. Making "what people asked for" the basis for one's reasoning is untenable, as even in a situation where someone has been wronged and everyone agrees they deserve compensation there are indeed requests that can be made which are unreasonable or disproportionate or just plain impractical. Just because you deserve something doesn't necessarily mean you deserve to get what you want. And these are holes that can be poked even after one has assumed that the progressive framing of poor Indigenous outcomes is correct, and I don't.

Are we sure this is not due to some Russian trickery with the elections?

As we know, it's not real democracy if the people vote for the opposite of what the establishment want them to.

Surely Trump/MAGA/QAnon must be involved somehow! 😀

The Sydney Morning Herald helpfully reports:

Anti-Voice rallies organised by pro-Putin conspiracy theorist

Putin strikes again.

I wish I was ten percent as competent as the left believes Putin is.

I wish I was ten percent as competent as the left believes Putin is.

So does Putin.

I've been refreshing the counts for the past few hours, and this referendum failed even harder than I thought it was going to as well. 60% rejecting the proposal and losing all states is a pretty damning result for The Voice. I'm particularly surprised by Tasmania's rejection, because it was a state that Yes supporters were relying on to support the referendum, and surveys before the referendum indicated it might vote yes.

Something that Mundine stated in the aftermath of the referendum results did resonate with me quite heavily:

Warren Mundine, the leading no campaigner, has credited his side’s focusing on migrant communities for helping defeat the referendum.

Mundine spoke to Sky News, noting “some of them come from countries where they were second-class citizens” and were open to a message about the voice causing a divide.

We knew that the migrant community is 50% of Australia, either born overseas or their parents have been born overseas. We deliberately target that group.”

I'm the kind of migrant that has experienced this, and am incredibly opposed to affirmative action. Progressives might think their ideas are revolutionary and new, but their mindset of victimhood, group accountability and unequal racial treatment on that basis is basically endemic in many third-world countries, and many migrants have been on the wrong side of policies that look and quack a good amount like progressive politics.

As a result, I was in support of No from the very beginning, and though I couldn't vote in it I am happy with the outcome of the referendum. If the Voice had ended up with too much influence it would essentially have been a permanent, constitutionally mandated lobbying group which constituted an outright subversion of a proper and impartial democratic process, if it ended up with too little influence it would have basically been useless. Both would have warranted a No vote.

surveys before the referendum indicated it might vote yes

"Shy Tory" effect? If indicating you are thinking of voting "no" gets you tagged as a racist white supremacist hater -phobe -ist, then why on earth would you admit to any pollster your true intentions? I think it also indicates we should be sceptical about polls that are all "X is a sure result" for whatever side, because it does depend where you are polling, who you are polling, and how the questions are phrased.

Nah, more likely just small subgroup samples. Tasmania only has 500k people, it's normal for polling to be unreliable. You have to poll a lot of people to get enough Tasmanians to get a reliable subsample.

What is the pollster going to do to you?

How confident are you the pollster isn't compiling a list of political enemies? What do you gain by answering honestly? If the answer to the first question is "less than 100%" and the answer to the second is "Nothing," why would you ever answer honestly? It just seems like the obviously wrong decision (for non-Kantians, at least.)

I've never heard of someone in the US pretending to be a pollster to create a list of potential enemies, so I'd be basically 100% sure.

This same argument would cause you to expect a shy progressive effect that doesn't seem to exist.

Modern Western society does a lot more cancellation, hecklings and punishment of the insufficiently-left than the insufficiently-Right

As long as the chance is not zero, the argument says you must lie.

What's more important - that you answer a poll honestly or that someone likes you? In this world of anxiety and influencers it doesn't matter who the pollster is, only that they exist and might think less of you.

Is there less of a shy tory effect in online surveys where there isn't even anyone on the line who might judge you?

I dunno man,I have tended to give the answers the surveyors wanted to hear whenever I've been picked for one. Though these were over the phone, not online.

It's just a bit awkward and easier to tell them what (you think) they want

Don't think it's shy-Tory. The No result was stronger than the polls in most states, but it's not stronger than the trendline of the polls (the polls showed Yes collapsing over time, so it's not surprising that Yes continued to collapse between the last polls and voting day). And the very last polls in Tas do show a sudden and massive shift to No, fairly consistent with the actual outcome. Maybe something happened in Tasmania that I don't know about.

Agreed, the Aboriginal grievance industry is still very fixed in this idea of blackfellas vs whitefellas, and it's increasingly disconnected from the very immigrant-heavy multiethnic country that actually exists. Their messages just do not resonate with people who neither share their grudges nor feel any white guilt for their circumstances.

I fully expected it, but I'm still gratified to see No performing extremely strongly in areas with heavily non-Anglo demographics. A country like this can't work if people don't buy into the idea that race doesn't matter.

This is veering pretty close to waging culture war and, while not building consensus, assuming consensus.

My understanding of the spirit of the Motte is that when you write on the Motte, you should not assume a background of people who share your political views.

That is, my understanding is that this is not supposed to be a place where you share excited "inside opinions" about how your preferred politics are going.

I say this not as someone who is for the "Yes", but just as someone who does not want more culture war waging here.

Is there something I assumed that you'd like explained in more detail?

Sorry, I was drunk-posting when I read the above and I think I read something into it that was not there.

On re-reading it, I realized that even if there is some little bit of culture war waging in it, which I'm not sure, it's very minor by Motte standards, to the point that it would probably be hard to write anything about politics without having a similar degree of slant.

My apologies!

I mean, I did neglect to explain what I meant when I challenged the "misinformation" claim, and you prompted me to remedy that. But yes, apology accepted.

Might as well be proactive regarding the "misinformation" issue. Using the top result on Google (the people on the news tonight IIRC didn't specify what they objected to, with one exception that I'll come back to) and the official No case mailed to every Australian at government expense (along with a Yes case of equal length).

1 - "Australians will lose ownership of homes Variations of this claim include: Australians will be forced to pay reparations or the voice will increase taxes (ie, the voice will cost you money)"

Certainly, the idea that the referendum would directly imply reparations, that's false. The more measured case (and this one definitely is in the official No campaign) is that a Yes result would have a) built a Pro-Aboriginal consensus, which might make people more friendly to reparations, b) directly provided some level of soft influence to Aboriginals - that's the whole point, giving them an advisory body - which they might then use to advocate for reparations. I shy away from using this as motive to vote - feels a bit Machiavellian - but it seems plausible enough to me in terms of the facts (on both counts) and the Uluru Statement which inspired the voice does call for a "treaty" of some sort.

As for the latter part, certainly "voting for the Voice will directly raise taxes" is clear misinformation. The official No case merely said the Voice "will be costly" and said we don't know how much funding would be allocated to the Voice. It's not misinformation to say that government bodies cost money - that's extremely, obviously true - and "we don't know how much funding would be allocated" is also true.

2 - "The voice is legally risky Variations of this include claims that the voice is a third chamber of parliament, will dictate laws to the government, or will destabilise democracy"

Basically, the question here is "would the Voice have the power to block legislation". The No claim is that because the proposed change to the Constitution gives the Parliament the power to decide what powers the Voice has, Parliament might give the Voice the power to block Aboriginal-related legislation. The claim of misinformation is that this wouldn't or couldn't happen. To refute that claim, I cite the very article claiming it's misinformation:

Constitutional law experts are largely in agreement that there is nothing in the voice’s addition to the constitution which would lead to legal risk.

"Largely". That is, there are some that disagree (and indeed the official No case quotes a former High Court judge). So on the "could" question, there is some chance that trying it might work.

I ran the numbers, and was quite confident that the Parliament would not in fact do this; even if they tried, it would almost certainly fail to pass the Senate. But "the chance of X is very low" doesn't make "X could happen" misinformation; small probabilities of harm can be relevant to a vote if the harm is large enough. So on this one, I'll go to the wall on "plausible if unlikely; not misinformation".

3 - "The voice will divide the nation"

This is the one which was explicitly mentioned on the ABC coverage I saw. Not by an interviewee - one of the ABC journalists was interviewing the head of the No campaign, said this "wasn't factual" and asked him whether he regretted lying.

I don't understand the claims that this is misinformation. The claims that it's false (including the journalist, although not the article I'm beating up on) mostly just say "the Australian Constitution already gives the power to make laws for a specific race". The Constitution definitely does do that (it's extremely rarely used), but I'm not seeing why that makes "a specific body created to advocate for one racial grouping is dividing people into buckets by race" false.

The article I'm beating up on said that there are lobby groups already. Yes, there are, but not Constitutionally-recognised ones representing specific races. Again, not seeing the relevance.

My verdict: this is entirely true, the claims of misinformation border on misinformation themselves, I'll go to the wall on that.

4 - "The voice will force treaties"

See above under #1. The official No case said that this might lead to "Treaty" via people listening to the Voice and/or activists being emboldened, not that the Voice would directly force it. So the strawman/weak-man they're attacking would be misinformation, but the official case's point on this is quite plausible.

The article gets classy and says "There is no evidence for either, as the federal government has not indicated it will be engaging in those processes no matter what the outcome of the vote is." - do I really need to lay into this?

5 - "There are no details Variations of this claim include: you don’t know what you’re voting for and the voice is a Trojan horse for ‘secret agendas’"

I'm just going to quote the words in the article immediately following this:

There is plenty of detail. None of it is set in stone, because that is the parliament’s job, but we have an in-principle guide of what the voice under this government (because legislation can always be changed) would look like.

Exactly. We didn't know what we were voting for, because they had the legal option to change their minds afterward. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible.

Verdict: Largely accurate, not misinformation, I'll go to the wall on that.

6 - "The voice will allow the UN to take over Australia"

This is complete misinformation, no objections. (As you might expect, this one did not appear in any form in the official "no" case; this is just crazies.)

7 - "The Australian Electoral Commission will tamper with your votes"

Misinformation in the most blatant form that they're quoting, no objections. The AEC is highly trustworthy.

However, attention was drawn to the fact that ticks are counted as Yes and crosses are counted as invalid (not No). This is a known fact, the AEC went to court defending it against the alt-right UAP and won. This isn't tampering per se, the AEC told people to write Yes or No rather than to use a tick or cross, and it's not new for this referendum, but objecting to this policy isn't "false", it's an Ought statement saying that the speaker would prefer a different policy. On that one I'd say "not misinformation"; no Ought statement can be misinformation and the AEC 100% did the thing being objected to.

Note also on this one that the Yes campaign chose a colour representing itself that is identical to the AEC's official colour. They got in a little bit of trouble over this, although not a lot. So there were some things in AEC purple that were not impartial - they were Yes campaign material - although that's the Yes campaign being scummy and not the AEC.

Overall, I think it's fair to say that the No campaign's "misinformation" largely wasn't any such thing*, although as I noted there were crazies who said false things.

*There's one thing in the official No case that I think borders on misinformation. That's when they said "there is no comparable constitutional body like this anywhere in the world". Out of context I think that's false, although it's in the middle of an argument that there would be legal questions raised and in that sense it's justifiable because while similar bodies exist, it's not a 1:1 clone of them. Definite side-eye on that one, even if it makes a bit more sense in context.

The more measured case (and this one definitely is in the official No campaign) is that a Yes result would have a) built a Pro-Aboriginal consensus, which might make people more friendly to reparations, b) directly provided some level of soft influence to Aboriginals - that's the whole point, giving them an advisory body - which they might then use to advocate for reparations. I shy away from using this as motive to vote - feels a bit Machiavellian

Only if you think reparations are just and good but you just personally don't want to pay for them. If you are against reparations for fundamental or even pragmatic reasons, then "vote against a proposal that will have bad consequences further down the line" is perfectly reasonable.

Note that "it will cost money without achieving anything useful" is also a valid reason to be against something, even if it doesn't come out of your pocket.

Here we're not talking about "if I vote for the Voice the Voice will be able to extract reparations, which is bad", we're talking about "if I vote for the Voice it will shape the national conversation in a way which might lead to people voting for reparations, which is bad". The latter, unlike the former, is going into the Dark Arts realm of treating people as manipulable and prioritising optics over ground truth, hence my term Machiavellian.

It's not a matter of me thinking reparations are good, it's a matter of me saying "these corrupt means are not justified by this good end".

Now, I happen to have plenty of non-Dark-Arts justifications for voting No - "Aboriginals are already overrepresented in Parliament", "special racial privileges are bad", and "vague language that could be twisted into veto" are the ones I can think of offhand - so I did indeed vote No with a clear conscience. But I frown on this one particular motivation; we're Rats and we're supposed to be better than that.

The latter, unlike the former, is going into the Dark Arts realm of treating people as manipulable

But people are manipulable, and pretending otherwise is not going to help you navigate politics. If you're worried about the signal of your vote being misunderstood by other people to bad effect, it's perfectly valid to account for that.

I also think the worry is less that a yes vote would by itself naturally lead to support for reparations, but rather that it would be used by proponents as an argument to make it seems to have more support that it actually does. In which case the proponents are the ones employing Dark Arts, and you're merely depriving them of their tools. That would just be recognizing Dark Arts and taking countermeasures, i.e. Defense against the Dark Arts.

prioritising optics over ground truth

The point of voting is to signal the will of the voters, not to figure out some sort of "ground truth". A vote is always a public signal, and it's entirely fair to think about what exactly you're signalling compared to what you want to signal.

The latter, unlike the former, is going into the Dark Arts realm of treating people as manipulable and prioritising optics over ground truth, hence my term Machiavellian.

That's politics. If you're not willing to think that way, you'll get steamrollered by people who do.

I don’t really get your point. Let’s say you think the voice is a mild good thing, but are 100% opposed to reparations. Clearly your Yes vote helps reparations, invites reparations, legitimates reparations to a degree. Imo it’s perfectly acceptable to vote No as a signal, and action, indirectly targeted against the outcome you really care about, reparations.

Often governments will use referenda as a show of support. Is it machiavellian to vote according to your support for the government instead of the relatively unimportant question being asked?

Yes.

"100% opposed" is not entirely clear; I'd describe myself as 100% opposed to reparations IRL but I still don't think they're, like, Holocaust-level bad. If I did think they were Holocaust-level bad and I also thought the Voice was a mild good thing, I'd probably vote No and feel bad about it. Dark Arts can be the lesser evil, and even I do use them on occasion, but they're still Dark Arts and becoming inured to their use is a bad idea.

What is your objection? That it’s a sort of lie, because you vote no when you really believe yes?

For me, every referendum has implicit questions baked in, such as ‘do you support the current government’, or here ‘do you support reparations, the woke stuff, the ‘yes’ side generally, etc’, and although it is not official, it is legitimate to vote on those.

My theory is that a lie is only a lie if the counterpart expects the truth, and the more he expects it, the more it is a lie. But in this case, other voters, and the government, expect you to answer based on those other questions too, so it’s not a lie (or rather, any answer would be a lie in some way, so any answer is morally fine).

More comments

>Is there something I assumed that you'd like explained in more detail?

>>Might as well be proactive regarding the "misinformation" issue

Huh? What was the assumption you felt went against the rules? What is and isn't misinformation is a different argument. You wrote a lot here without address your initial objection.

Edit, I'm an r-slur.

The posts you quote are both mine; I replied to myself. I made the first post you quote, and then later (later enough that editing felt like people might miss it) decided to not wait for a reply and proactively explain the one controversial claim I made in the OP (that the claims of misinformation were mostly wrong).

Sorry for the confusion, although they both do say "magic9mushroom" at the top.

D'oh! I need to start looking at user names.

It makes sense, I should probably drink a little less on the weekends

That is, my understanding is that this is not supposed to be a place where you share excited "inside opinions" about how your preferred politics are going.

This seems to be basically a complaint that someone is expressing their political views which you don't necessarily agree with.

I don't see anything in the OP that would constitute "culture warring." We talk about culture war here, and that usually means including one's own takes on it.

Yes, I over-reacted. See my follow-up answer to magic9mushroom.

Some anon on 4chan /tv/, talking about the decline in movie quality, wrote "name ONE thing that has not gotten worse in recent years". From the context of movie discussions and the average age of 4channers, one can infer that the anon probably means roughly the last 10, maybe 20 years.

What say you, Motte?

My thoughts, off the top of my head, are:

  1. AI. This one is self evident. Massive breakthroughs. Yes, there is a danger of Skynet, but that doesn't seem very serious to me at the moment at least and I do not share people like Yudkowsky's despair.

  2. Spaceflight. Look at SpaceX.

  3. Challenges to the establishment: This one is a maybe, and contentious. Much depends on whether you like or dislike the establishment. The first 15 years of the millenium were dominated by bog-standard Democrats and neocons. People like GWB, Obama, and Romney. The last 8 years have seen a partial breakdown of that order, for better or worse. There has also been the rise of wokeism, but despite many apocalyptic prophecies it has not managed to end free speech or liberalism. In terms of sheer numbers, I think that many more people are exposed to heterodox political opinions today than were 20 years ago.

  4. Social media diversity: The Internet of the 90s collapsed into walled gardens and in some places into stultifying echo chambers, but I see reasons to be optimistic about the way things are going the last 3-4 years. Spurred partly by censorship on major platforms, people actually have started to spread out and build their own forums again. This site is one example but there are many others.

DIY scene. With YouTube you can find a dude or a gal doing exactly what you want to learn, with helpful commentary.

  • building a PC? Here's a video about four different fan configurations in the case you've been eyeing and their effect on the thermals
  • fixing a vacuum cleaner? Here's a video where a guy disassembles your specific model
  • hanging up a new shelf in your bathroom? Here's how to drill a hole in tile without it cracking
  • growing blackberries? Here's how to plant them, prune them, everything
  • building a house? Here's a 20-episode series about floor plans and a 50-episode series about building everything from the foundation to interior trim. Here's 100 episodes from other authors that explain everything the original series did wrong, and 20 more episode of rebuttals.

Obvious answer in my mind is cell phones/text messaging.

Budget cell phones ($150 range) have basically not improved since at least 2016. There's maybe a bit more RAM. Displays are the same, CPUs are largely the same, connectivity is the same, functionality is the same, batteries are largely the same. Numeric improvements seem to average out to maybe 20%. (Which may seem respectable, until you consider that in other computing products we were used to doublings over that range.)

Obvious answer in my mind is cell phones/text messaging.

Really? 'Cause from my perspective, cellphones turned from actually useful communication devices into an unholy supernormal stimulus that people have to constantly struggle against in order to function. I'm a teacher; every day I have to take away students' phones, because nobody is going to work if the alternative of getting a dopamine hit is sitting right there.

The internet was bad enough when it wasn't following you around 24/7 in your pocket. You can't opt out, either; society is now built on the assumption that you have a smartphone. My school uses WhatsApp as the official method of group communication for staff.

The fact that phones went from small devices with a week-long battery life to gargantuan machines with a battery life of less than a day is just the cherry on top.

I feel like that's more a product of TikTok/Social-Media but to each their own.

See pretty much every movie plot prior to 1995 that is effectively rendered obsolete by reliable asynchronous communication. (cough Die Hard 3 cough)

“AI” doesn’t really seem like a thing we should care about getting better in and of itself. Rather if AI is getting better and AI matters at all, then things downstream of AI should get observably better. It’s kind of like “factories getting better,” we don’t really care about the new factories per se but how the factories’ getting better makes life better somehow.

The caveat to this is among people who are just into AI in the same way that lots of people are into movies, maybe they directly care (most people don’t.)

Related gwern post: My Ordinary Life: Improvements Since the 1990s

One thing I've noticed is the amount of relatively inexpensive analog synths, guitar pedals, and random peripheral music gear like samplers and drum machines. Back in the 00's when I was playing music in a sort of scene, if anyone had an analog synth it was from the 70's, very expensive, and, uh, temperamental at best. Bands all pretty much used the same pedals in various configurations. Today you can pick up a Korg minilogue on craigslist for a few hundred bucks and have a full analog circuit polyphonic synth and while you're at it scoop up a few boutique pedals, I'm not sure if they're really less expensive than what we were paying for Boss pedals back in the day or if they just don't hold their value, but the takeaway is that it would seem that the kids making music these days must have an absolute mountain of options even not considering DAW/virtual bloops.

Now, affording a place to practice...

Food in America outside NYC/major metros. The availability of different cuisines, of high-effort takes on local cuisine, of high quality and unique ingredients, of locally brewed interesting beer and distilled spirits... It's mind boggling.

Time was if you were on a road trip and you stopped in a small town, you just hoped for a diner that was clean and would serve a decent turkey sandwich. Chain restaurants were nice because at least you knew McD's or Cracker Barrel would be acceptable food.

Now I pull off in some one stoplight burg in Appalachia and I'm on Yelp reading reviews of a local microbrewery to try the local pickle lager and the Montreal Style Smoked meat platter.

It is unambiguously better than it was 20 years ago, when there were three beers in most bars, none of them local, and chain restaurants were slowly blending everything to grey.

Can't say I've particularly noticed a trend like this in my area — if anything, we've had restaurants and such closing down in my neighborhood over the past few years, and reduced diversity of products in stores.

But then again, Alaska is very much a special case, being as we're pretty much entirely dependent on outside shipping, and still having supply-chain issues.

Food everywhere, really. I can easily get stuff from my local store that few people in Finland (outside of Helsinki, perhaps) would have even heard of 20 years ago. Back then there was a concept in the press called "sushi border" referring to what's the northernmost (ie the most remote) location in Finland where you can get sushi; I haven't heard of this concept for over a decade since you can get sushi everywhere.

I theorized in a comment a bit ago that the widespread availability of good and variable food everywhere might contribute to the obesity crisis quite a bit...

As an add-on, food media. The internet (and youtube especially) has allowed cooking shows to escape the ivory towers of the test kitchen, meaning it's not just the tastemakers you have to go to for insight and instruction. This has not only allowed for a proliferation in the types of recipes and cuisines you can find on the internet, but it's also meant a rather systematic dismantling of a lot of culinary school traditions and myths. There has never been a better time for the curious mind to enjoy making their own food.

The anon wasn't talking about in movies? Because that's a defensible statement - outside of fidelity increases in camera tech (which really isn't better, it just gives film makers more options) nothing about the cinema industry has improved in the past decade certainly, and imo things have gotten significantly worse. Even the indie side is worse - most mumblecore (and mumblegore) might have been dull and pretentious, but it was so great seeing all those artists putting their visions on film without studio interference. And even if you don't agree, and think things would have been better if Greta Gerwig had run over the Duplass brothers and been jailed for manslaughter in 2004, it was surely better than nothing, better than watching all of those creative visions get bought out and sanitised by Disney so that now they're turning out more cookie cutter live action remakes and comic book adaptations.

I don’t think it’s just sanitizing after the fact. The issue for me is that almost all of them are coming from the same places — the same circles in Hollywood, the same film schools, the same social and political culture and so on. This makes it really impossible to have a truly unique take on a project as there’s nothing unique about your artistic history and therefore you’re interchangeable with anyone who graduates a film school.

There was a tweet that was something like

Actors in the 40s: He was discovered by a talent agent in Cuba where he was in jail for assault while serving in the merchant marine.

Actors today: His dad was a hedge fund manager and his mom was a model. He went to Yale.

LA in general has a very high COL, and most people trying to make it in Hollywood spend years practically unemployed (they become waitstaff and baristas basically, and have to have a very flexible part time schedule to leave time for auditions). That combination pretty much excludes most people who don’t have families that can spend tens of thousands of dollars to bankroll a child chasing that dream. Most art is that way, if you’re going to “go pro” you need the family to bankroll you while you’re trying to break in. That’s a pretty effective filter for working class voices and given that conservatives tend to value financial independence and gainful employment, a fairly effective filter for conservative views as well.

That combination pretty much excludes most people who don’t have families that can spend tens of thousands of dollars to bankroll a child chasing that dream.

Or, alternately, you can have families that are already in the business — note how many Hollywood types are related (Angelina Jolie is Jon Voight's daughter, George Clooney and Miguel Ferrer were first cousins, and then there's the Coppola and Barrymore families). So add competition with those "born into it" as another barrier for those trying to "break in."

Also that this cultural clique has become far more insular over time, which leads to even more homogeneity.

The paradox of diversity... All skin colors sexulities and shapes united in ideological monoculture.

This is more a "take stock of one's blessings" post than anything else, but other than what everyone else has already covered:

  • Cars have become significantly more powerful and reliable (and Tesla sprang into existence). Yes, they're more expensive (thanks to environmental and safety laws making it illegal to make the cheap ones + market forces arising from interest rates being negative), but even said cheap ones last in a way they really didn't before. Mazda3s don't rust to pieces any more.
  • Single family homes (should you choose to afford one) are quite literally mansions compared to construction 20 years ago, and construction materials used in them are significantly higher-quality (high-density vinyl tiles and engineered wood planks are excellent compared to what came before). These homes have significantly more natural light, as well.
  • Air pollution and environmental destruction in pursuit of energy resources (in the West) is at an all-time low due primarily due to the phase-out of coal mining for natural gas fracking.
  • Pistols, rifles, and optics are way higher quality and far cheaper than they used to be, and are available in much greater variety. Pistols are lighter, smaller, and better; rifle accuracy that cost 5000 dollars in 2003 is taken for granted at the 500 dollar bracket now; and we have reliable red dots on pistols for 200 dollars (and excellent scopes on rifles for 500).
  • Improved plastic body armor is both lighter than ever before and can protects its wearers from being penetrated by nearly all known forms of small-arms fire, up to and including rounds intended to destroy light vehicles, for under 1000 dollars.
  • The popularization and increasing availability of UHMWPE for consumer and industrial products in general as an improvement on other high-strength, low-friction, bio-compatible plastics.
  • Large media companies utterly failed to stamp out piracy and most people have an awareness of how to avoid those ruinous fines that cast a long shadow over the file-sharing environment in the early '00s (not even BitTorrent is needed now; pirate streaming sites operate openly). Independent TV enjoyed a meteoric rise thanks to YouTube, and that TV is better than it ever was over cable.
  • Music is far more available for both exposure and purchase thanks to Spotify, Pandora, etc.
  • All but the absolute cheapest laptops now come standard with 1920 x 1080 screens; touchpads have become much larger and their drivers are better.
  • 3D printers were popularized and hit the 200 dollar price point.
  • IRCv3 (on the free Discord network) gained overwhelming levels of adoption.
  • Gaming for younger demographics (starting with about the '05 model years) improved in quality significantly thanks to the invention of utterly massive voxel-based games with good modding support. Games also came down in price over the last 10 years (not necessarily without problems, mind you, but for people without a lot of money to spend it's the difference between playing with friends and relative isolation).
  • Crowdfunding schemes reached maturity, meaning that certain things (generally games and small physical objects) that wouldn't normally see the light of day now do. Thanks to Etsy, it's far easier for smaller creators to sell things to wider audiences than the classified sites of the early '00s lent themselves to.
  • Board games are better-designed and available in far more variety than ever before (partially but not completely due to the above).
  • Airline hijackings are a non-thing (passengers have been trained to act appropriately) and the time between loss-of-life incidents in aircraft has done nothing but increase.
  • Virtually all restaurants now offer takeaway service that can arrive on a schedule.

I can't speak to other sports, but my impression is that Hockey is more fun to watch. High skilled players like Connor McDavid use speed and slick moves to score highlight reel goals, more players are attempting fancy lacrosse style goals (aka "the michigan"), it feels less grindy, the neutral zone trap/dead puck style is able to be countered, goaltending is either worse or players are better which is resulting in higher score games with greater opportunities for comebacks. The refereeing also feels better? Low bar though.

Sports is kind of a weird one.

I feel like athletic levels are higher, but also that there's more of a metagame in play in most high level sports which makes the teams a bit samey even if the players are, in absolute terms, way better than their predecessors.

I have no idea what is better now than when I was younger, any more than my parents knew about or understood the cool stuff I was paying attention to when I was a teen.

So many times I've been blindsided by some cool new thing I'd never heard of, only to find that it has five hundred million rabid fans already.

I have a fair amount of faith that lots of things are better, even if I don't know what they are.

Cell phones are pretty great, I even write my novel on one and pretty much use it for everything other than pc gaming. There's little meaningful tradeoff past the entry level or midrange, they all have good screens, cameras and battery life that lasts a day at least. They might be stagnating, but I'll probably buy a foldable next, probably a Samsung since I crave the pen.

Ozempic looks like it's the real deal. I don't put much stock in people who keep muttering under their breath about some hidden catch, as if the universe works that way. A cure for obesity, as well as seemingly effective against other disorders of executive function like gambling and alcoholism? Hell fucking yeah, maybe it'll turn out to work for ADHD, but that would actually be even more surprising. It's going to get cheaper, nothing has economies of scale like a weight loss drug, there are other companies rushing out comparable drugs, and you can get generics through dubious sources if you wish.

Can't wait for it to get cheap enough for us poor Third World bastards, I'll be putting my mom on it ASAP, and then myself if I can shake enough change out of the cushions. I'm not obese, but I have gained like 10 kilos from my habit of having ridiculously cheap and ridiculously greasy biryani as comfort food, even if it's my only meal of the day (!). I've lost said weight before the hard way, through exercise and dieting, and I found both to be too painful to bother with unless I'm desperately single. Give me a pill or give me a jab, I'll take it and I couldn't care less about sanctimonious looks.

Less important, but cool: VR is a thing. Yeah. The Quest 3 looks great, even if I sorely miss the potential of eye tracking, but at that price something had to give. Shame it turns out I'm too lazy to play much, but it's a tick off the bucket list until we can control our characters simply by thinking.

To elaborate on AI:

I've found GPT-4 to be invaluable, the idea of simply googling anything complex fills me with a headache, even if I append a site:reddit.com at the end. God knows I'd spend more time staring at the summaries on UpToDate and Co, I can trust the answers most of the time, even if I make sure to check where I'm not confident in it.

Image generation is almost solved, like 90% there except for the most baroque prompts. DALL-E 3 can understand semantics for multiple characters engaging in different actions, even if it's not quite as aesthetic as Midjourney. Shame they went ham on the safety filters lately, but I already have hundreds of pieces, many of which I've sprinkled into my novel. A luxury, yes, but very nice to have, since I have no intentions for paying for an illustrator.

AI music is coming around nicely, I unironically listen to SpongeBob and Patrick rap Niggers in Paris, and it'll be simple enough to throw the name of your favorite artist who no longer does their old style and get something decent out of it. (I'm looking at you, Alex Turner. AM was the peak, fight me.)

There hasn't been a better time to be alive, we can potentially solve ~all our problems in a few decades. While I've gone from P(doom) of 70% to around 30%, I still take AI X-risk as the most pressing concern of the day. And I certainly don't look forward to AIs taking my jerb, I even spent about an hour chatting with the one person more fucked than I am, a med student. I might get to enter training and progress a bit with a lot of luck, he's going to be lucky to have training programs by the time he's going to sit the exams, worse case is he never finishes the post grad courses before they become obsolete.

Even if I am quite depressed, I'm confident that it's worth sticking around to see the future, we're on the cusp of great or terrible things, to the extent that that classification depends on your POV.

DALL-E 3 can understand semantics for multiple characters engaging in different actions, even if it's not quite as aesthetic as Midjourney.

By chance, I tried it a lot of times (through Bing) recently for two characters, a man and a woman. It's pretty bad at doing this. It keeps giving both characters the hair color I specified for one, and gives the man a bag when I specifiy the woman has a handbag. "Holding nothing" doesn't affect this. "Holding a ball of fog" tended to produce fog anywhere in the picture half the time. Also, a woman with a dress had to be specified as Caucasian to prevent the word "white" from being applied to the dress.

I fully concede it's not perfect, but if you compare it to prior models, you'll see it's a massive leap forward.

If I had to roughly quantify it, I'd say that about 2/4 of the pictures are what you asked for if you wanted a particular combination of 2 or 3 entities engaging in different activities. DALL-E 2 Experimental was maybe 1 in 16, and that was a pretty good model.

For MJ, and even SD, it's closer to random chance for getting something accurate.

If you can share an example prompt, I think I know a few tricks to getting it to understand which character or object you're referring to, it's mostly as simple as referring to the specific object directly, when you add more qualifiers.

Ozempic looks like it's the real deal. I don't put much stock in people who keep muttering under their breath about some hidden catch, as if the universe works that way. A cure for obesity, as well as seemingly effective against other disorders of executive function like gambling and alcoholism?

Not that easy, and I'm speaking as a whale with Type II diabetes who was put on both Ozempic (until I couldn't get it because people like you were snapping it up to lose ten kilos) and Trulicity. Ozempic I wasn't on long enough, or at high enough doses, to see any results, but at the initial dosage I tolerated it well but did not see loss of appetite, etc. happening, and those were the touted effects of "this makes losing weight so easy!"

Trulicity I had to stop because the side effects were so bad. Yeah, I lost some weight - due mostly to vomiting and diarrhoea from the gastro-intestinal effects, again not from any curbing of appetite.

And both are not 'miracle cures' as you are supposed to also do the traditional "diet and exercise" accompanying taking the drug, not relying on it alone to lose weight.

There also seems to be problems becoming apparent, now that these drugs are being used by the public at large. Even when using 'as directed', the warning leaflet warns about the risk of pancreatitis and other serious side-effects.

So if you're hoping for quick weight loss - yeah, it may do so. But you'll (1) be expected to diet and exercise alongside it, so give up the greasy biryani and (2) be on it for life - stop taking it, the weight piles back on. Most responsible medical advice would be "you only need to lose ten kilos, stop eating the greasy comfort food and become more active" but if you can manage to wangle it, you may not like the side effects. The major mechanism of action of these drugs is to slow stomach emptying (so you feel fuller for longer, thus don't eat as much and as frequently) and that can be accompanied by everything from flatulence to stomach paralysis.

As for a "cure for obesity" - it seems to work for a lot of people, but not all people, and it probably works best the least amount of weight you have to lose. There's no easy, painless way to lose weight, diet and exercise and life-long changes in eating habits are expected to accompany it (so bye-bye comfort foods forever).

Cure for gambling/alcoholism/addiction? I'm very dubious, I don't see how this links up with the reported mechanism of action. It may be that people have a cluster of behaviours (e.g. they drink and smoke when they eat, and if they're not eating as much/frequently, so they're drinking and smoking less) but I do wonder. I need more evidence on this, rather than "I read somewhere that someone said someone else said they were cured of being an alcoholic by taking Ozempic").

Ozempic I wasn't on long enough, or at high enough doses, to see any results, but at the initial dosage I tolerated it well but did not see loss of appetite, etc. happening, and those were the touted effects of "this makes losing weight so easy!"

It would have been better to put you on a higher dose than give up on it altogether, though it's a shame the starting dose didn't work for you.

Trulicity, while in the same class of drug, isn't one that's licensed for the purposes of weight loss, just for the management of diabetes. Which is perfectly fine, but a failure in that regard is unexceptional.

Besides, as a Catholic, I'm sure you're aware that not everyone is so lucky as to encounter a "miracle", but Ozempic works for most people, with minimal side effects, and that's good enough for me, even if it isn't efficacious in literally everyone.

For every person like you who drew the short straw, there's who knows how many who did what no amount of advice to exercise or diet achieved.

Most responsible medical advice would be "you only need to lose ten kilos, stop eating the greasy comfort food and become more active" but if you can manage to wangle it, you may not like the side effects. The major mechanism of action of these drugs is to slow stomach emptying (so you feel fuller for longer, thus don't eat as much and as frequently) and that can be accompanied by everything from flatulence to stomach paralysis.

It doesn't just make your digestion slower, it also makes you less hungry too, in an unrelated manner.

My mom's liver is failing, and no amount of attempts to diet or the tough love people have given her has helped. If she doesn't lose weight, I don't like her odds of making it another decade.

Is life worth living? Depends on the liver.

My case is far more discretionary, and as life has demonstrated, I am capable of losing weight the hard way. I'd still very much rather not, and when it gets cheap enough I'd much rather just take a pill. I, like millions or billions of others, am more than willing to pay for convenience.

But you'll (1) be expected to diet and exercise alongside it, so give up the greasy biryani and (2) be on it for life - stop taking it, the weight piles back on. Most responsible medical advice

Expected? Certainly. Do you need to? Not really. It curbs your hunger my itself, and doctors have been impotently suggesting the above to billions who listen and nod intently and go back to having a cheeseburger. The drug makes the burger unappealing. At that point you're not fighting yourself, you're just doing what you want to, naturally or not.

Cure for gambling/alcoholism/addiction? I'm very dubious, I don't see how this links up with the reported mechanism of action

You should be gratified to hear this came as precisely much a surprise to you as it did to the manufacturers and inventors of the drug.

Doesn't mean it's not true, the human body is fucking weird.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-new-weight-loss-drugs-like-ozempic-treat-addiction1/

The research is very much in the preliminary stages, yet it's promising.

Yet the weight loss, which is by far the most important thing the drug does, is indisputable.

It would have been better to put you on a higher dose than give up on it altogether, though it's a shame the starting dose didn't work for you.

Supply chain issues. The chemist was able to get a month's supply of the starting dosage, but when the doctor was upping me to the higher one no dice - they couldn't get it. So that's when my doctor switched me to Trulicity and the side effects were so bad I said "hell with this, I'm not staying on this one".

The drug makes the burger unappealing.

I read all the wonder stories and was hoping this would happen for me, but nope. Burgers were just as appealing as before. Granted, had I been able to get onto the higher dose for a longer time, who knows? But I think I wouldn't be that lucky. If someone can invent a reliable, guaranteed, "this will kill your appetite" drug that doesn't involve paralysing your intestines or invoking streaming diarrhoea, I'd greatly appreciate that. The only time I haven't been able to eat is when I was so sick, the nurse literally couldn't get a measure of my blood sugar with the 'stick and test strip' meter, and they made me drink sugary energy drink to get the numbers up.

I really, really, really wonder about the addiction results. It'd be grimly funny in that cosmic irony way if it actually does have something to do with the mechanism of addiction, and all the people telling fatties like me "look porker, losing weight is easy: just stop stuffing your face with junk" had to admit that maybe food too is addictive for some people. But probably not, and something weird is going on there.

If you truly are obese, have Type II diabetes, and can't get access to Ozempic, have you considered a ketogenic diet?

I've been doing it for a couple months now, and the results have been incredible on both my waistline and on the scale. And I'm loving the food too. So delicious.

For me, the need is not that huge. I was only slightly overweight before and I'm doing it mostly out of vanity and for sports performance. For you, the benefits of a keto diet could be life-changing.

I know that pretty much everyone who is overweight wants to poo poo the keto diet, giving excuses not to do it, and reasons why it won't work for them. But it does work for almost everyone who tries it. I'd give it a shot!

have you considered a ketogenic diet?

I am back on the 'restricting carbs' diet, having fallen off the bandwagon from the early days. The only problem is, I fucking love carbs.

Bread. Having, say, a bread roll with the salad for lunch sends my blood glucose soaring (and since I'm doing regular testing now, I can track what happens when). Same with noodles, rice, pasta, potatoes... so I have to severely cut back on those.

No problem, I can eat as much protein and veggies as I like, right? Except meals don't seem 'right' without carbs, plus I get hungry within hours so I'm not really reducing what I eat as much as I am now obsessing over "I have to wait minimum two hours after eating to measure my blood sugar to be sure it's within the limits so I can eat again". It's crazy and I don't know why my physiology seems to work like that, but that's how it is.

plus I get hungry within hours so I'm not really reducing what I eat as much

This is surprising to me. That's the big benefit of keto for me. I don't really get hungry.

When you first start, there's a big difference between 100 carbs/day and 20 carbs/day. Gotta get to ketosis first and then you can relax a bit. But hunger shouldn't be a problem. If you go full carnivore, you'll feel stuffed all the time and have trouble getting even 2000/calories a day.

Personally, I love the keto bread products that are available as well. Not nearly as good as real bread, and expensive as fuck, but it definitely fills out the meal.

By the way, I sympathize. Everyone's body is different and reacts to carbs differently. You seem to have gotten a bad roll of the dice. I hope you find a solution that works for you!

Ditto from me on basically everything you said.

Under the theories that power Keto, most of the food that's easily available in the Western world is completely terrible for you. Eating food that's terrible for you and also taking a drug that probably makes it have less of an effect for life seems like a worse idea than just eating better food.

I advocate a gradual approach to moving onto Keto. Start by making a list of everything you eat. One at a time, replace each thing with something more Keto, ideally starting with the worst. Keep going until you notice positive effects. The usual standard of 20g of carbs a day is probably not necessary to get down to if you're not trying to lose hundreds of pounds of weight. If you can stay under 100g or so of carbs a day and not notice at least some positive effects, then it's probably not going to work for you.

Ozempic looks like it's the real deal. I don't put much stock in people who keep muttering under their breath about some hidden catch, as if the universe works that way. A cure for obesity, as well as seemingly effective

Ozempic is probably clearly an all cause mortality improvement for people with obesity, which is a huge win, though I think the cost-benefit is worse if you're taking it for non-health reasons since it does cause an apparent decrease in muscle mass and also elevated heart rate which... probably can't be good?

I think those are the catches.

I sure do hear a lot of muttering from naturally thin types about it though!

I sure do hear a lot of muttering from naturally thin types about it though!

Just wait until they figure out how to safely trigger hypertrophy without lifting lol.

Just wait until they figure out how to safely trigger hypertrophy without lifting lol.

You mean steroids? Oh, "safely".

Myostatin inhibitors exist and have had some promising initial results. That said, I'm more cautious about drugs that allow uncontrolled cell growth than I am GLP agonists.

Hmm, I should check if the people and cattle with myostatin knockout mutations have increased cancer rates.

My bet is no--cancer seems to be more associated with hyperplasia than hypertrophy, and I'd expect a myostatin inhibitor to encourage the latter. My personal worry is more around heart health. Needs more research before I'd dive into self experimentation, though.

I would presume the same, but we're both being lazy by not googling it haha

The loss of muscle along with fat is a fairly common side effects of any procedure or treatment that makes you lose weight quickly, hell even fasting. Still something worth keeping an eye on.

The elevation in heart rate seems pretty insignificant, unless someone has an existing heart condition, I think it's utterly irrelevant both on its own and given the overall cardiovascular benefits.

Ah, it's great to live in an age of manmade wonders beyond my comprehension!

since it does cause an apparent decrease in muscle mass

Is the decrease in muscle mass worse than what you would expect from just eating less calories?

Livestreaming has really taken off. I know some people hate the terms "content," and "content creator," but no other word captures the breadth and volume of internet video content. Every possible niche interest has at least one dedicated youtuber or twitch streamer who goes live 5 times a week that the community revolves around. Massive amounts of free and popular media content is good actually. 10-15 years ago when RedLetterMedia first came on the scene, they had to pack their reviews full of shock-jock gimmicky cutaways because that was the only way to get viral attention. The entire genre of "YouTube movie review channel" wasn't a thing that existed back then.

Relatedly: instead of listening to Master of Puppets for the 3rd time in one day while studying or working out, I can play genres that I would have never known about if not for Youtube, like dungeon synth or dinosynth, made by talented amateurs in their basements whose work would never otherwise have been appreciated so widely.

Related to this there is almost always a very good tutorial on just about everything one could want to learn.

5. Threat posed by Russia. Their adventure in Ukraine is burning though their resources, even Germany noticed that Russian imperialism is a problem.

6. Low level electronic hardware (SSD for example)

7. Batteries got so much better to deserve own entry (consequences are drones, and various battery powered stuff becoming more viable)

8. Solar and wind power slowly becomes actually useful at grid scale (not sure has it happened, subsidies are making it less clear but there is a clear upward trajectory)


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